Didn't want to hijack the seahorse eat thread

[seahorsedreams]

Okay, seriously. I read enough of the thread to participate in the conversation but I skimmed over the stuff where y'all looked like a bunch of high school kids.

I was confirming that you didn't keep LR or corals in there because you didn't mention it that I could see.

When that information was provided I actually AGREED with you that it sounded like you were not risking anything.

So, what level of rudeness do you take it up to if someone actually disagrees with you!

 

[acroboy]

I don't take it to any level when there is a difference of opinion, But after things got heated and condisending things happen. I got upset with you because if you felt it was important to state your opinion you should have given the discussion enough respect to read it.

 

[seahorsedreams]

I'M AGREEING WITH YOU!!!

 

[seamonkey2]

so anybody else wants to chip in for the food deal?

everyboy is jelous of you acroboy, you got the best of 2 worlds and free food, my friend, that is priceless

no.... really..... priceless..since is free and all

acroboy your experience in the field and classroom, makes you an expert, some people just cant say thanks for the info. ,and move on.

Renee I like you, even if you are from california

Jose

 

[acroboy]

I think that’s a great Idea. I’m being responsible in every sense of the term. I don't think this is something everyone should do. It is only through my good fortune of observing others fortunate enough to work with Hippocampus for a living. That is one of the greatest jobs of all.


I love learning from other people’s good fortune with seahorses. It's funny because there are so many different types of shrimp here, especially in early spring. Now that I have had a facility built connected to my house as a part of major renovation, I can really start to work with different food ideas.

 

[Poniegirl]

I have also noticed that, more than ANY other SW fish, seahorses can be the most inflamitory subject. They inspire a great deal of passion (no wonder!) and there are not many who sit astride the "opinion fence"; there seems to be a right side of the fence or a wrong one.
Acro, your catch and release program absolutely fascinates me! And confirms my suspicion that these fish are MUCH less fragile than people think (or want to think?).
The responses of awe when people see that we keep these beautiful creatures unfortunately makes some feel like they really are accomplishing the impossible if they are "able" to keep the horses alive. And I fear that some folks want to keep that mystique going either for conservation or ego, I don't know.
The fact is that in order to learn about the horses as they are in the wild, they have to be studied that way.

 

[seamonkey2]

thanmks poniegirl, what a refreshing point of view

thanks again

acro., you lucky dog you, so renovating your house, is short for living in a floating home LOL

your wife must be a saint to let you "renovate" with the horses in mind



finally back to food network

Jose

 

[seahorsedreams]

And just to clarify, I agree with acro points in this matter but I'm not on anybody's "side". Pledosophy's brain is filled with a heap of knowledgable information as well and he his views should also be respected.

 

[acroboy]

seamonkey2,

The only reason I got the fish room/lab is because I had a full house built on top of my for her parents to make a legal mother/ daughter as it called here. Yea in laws, Lucky me :hmm4:

 

[Fredfish]

Renee. Been picking bits of fence out of my gachies and tippy toeing about for a while now.

And confirms my suspicion that these fish are MUCH less fragile than people think (or want to think?).

ABSOLUTELY. Since everyone else brought their soap box...

What everybody seems to forget is that all creatures are supremely adapeted to surviving... in their particular environment!!! If lots of seahorses are dying, its because we are missing something fundementally important about their environment.

As I said earlier, it is the same as in the early days of reefkeeping when corals were kept at cooler temps - 76to78F was the recommended range - because it weakened bacteria and corals were supposed to be less likely to get infected and die. Fast forward 20 years and it turns out that if you give your corals sufficient water flow and you feed them, they do just fine at normal reef temperatures.

Same thing with fish. Salinity was kept at 1.020 to 1.022 because it 'weakened' bacteria and they were less likely to infect fish. At the same time, folks fed their fish only twice a week to control algae. Fast forward 20 years and we have figured out that feeding fish daily and using skimmers and grazers to control algae works much better than lowering salinity.

So, here we are with a species that is sensitive and gets infections often and dosn't seem to tolerate conditions it is found in in the wild very well when in the aquarium. What are we missing? In all my experience with keeping fish I can trace almost all my problems down to two basic things: poor nutrition, poor water quality (whatever that might mean for a particular species).

That is not to say there is no merit to the argument that horses are susceptable to different strains of vibrio that they are not exposed to in their particular environment. Seahorses live in isolated populations Their fry tend to settle fairly localy, particularly in the case of shallow water species.

Its sort of like fresh water Discus, which are not exposed to much in the way of bacteria and viruses in the low pH waters they are found in. In aquariums at normal pH they are much more sensitive to infection unless the water temperature is much higher than their normal environment.

OK, to bring this back to the topic at hand sor of ...

Acroboy, given that you are keeping your horses in local water and feeding them their natural food, how often to you find yourself treating your horses for infection or disease?

Also, how many horses do you keep in that 150 gallon?

Fred

P.S. I'll put my soapbox away now.

 

[Poniegirl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8447493#post8447493 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fredfish
Renee. Been picking bits of fence out of my gachies and tippy toeing about for a while now.

NO tippy-toeing! We are all about the same thing, for goodness sake, I truly trust. (full on)


Acroboy, given that you are keeping your horses in local water and feeding them their natural food, how often to you find yourself treating your horses for infection or disease?

I'd also like to know. Their digestive systems are very much key, I think.
And Fredfish, discus take me years back (!) Brackish is more difficult that SW, TFS!

 

[acroboy]

LOL, nothing wrong with a soap box. It helped make this country great and it helps people understand issues. Every once and a while you may see a seahorse just die with no signs of a bacterial infection(unofficially), sometimes an internal infection, if not extremely powerful, will be followed up by a secondary external one because weakened immune response. When this happens there does not seem to be any random or major die off with mine. Parasites maybe. If you look in the area that these seahorses feed you would think they would even get malaria. To me they are kind of like a komodo dragon, ferocious feeders in some pretty gross situations here yet as healthy as can be. There may be something’s in their natural environment that may help them stay healthy indirectly that we just may need to compensate for. But damn aren't they beautiful when the matting ritual starts.

 

[billsreef]

Some good info in this thread, but I've got to question this statement:

Gill netting was responsible for a huge decline in H erectus.

Of all the fishing gear used locally, I'd expect gill netting to be the least problematic to seahorses. Mesh sizes are typically large, aimed at catching legal sized weakfish, striped bass, bluefish and bunker. I've worked with gill nets in Shinnecock Bay and never caught any seahorses or anything else that small either. Trawls (not legal without scientific permits in bays) and seine nets are another story. I've also had scallopers bring me seahorses caught in dredges. Based on a lifetime on the water, IMO any decline in local seahorses is due more to habitat loss. Hardened shorlines (bulkheads), pollution, loss of eel grass beds has been a major factor in the overall decline in the health of local waters.

 

[acroboy]

There was actually a huge special many years ago that showed how netting had wipped out almost an entire generation of H. erectus over 3 inches in the South. I wasn't speaking just our pop here on LI which I think is somthing to be proud of.

The eel grass reduction is definetly a big issue.

 

[pledosophy]

Acro,

I do not mean to throw stones. Please excuse my eagerness to understand. At first I was worried you were some crazy hobbyist who was tossing his fish back into the ocean. We have seen it here several times. "I just released my cap fry into the ocean so they have a better chance of surviving". We both agree that this would not be a good thing.

I made strong statements about the act, and repercussions if someone was not being careful and was not knowledgable in there actions. I'm sure you can appreciate that there are not many people on this board, let alone in this country with your level of experience. So when seeing someone posting what you were doing, I freked, my bad for the worng assumption.

I did not mean it as an attack, nor did I wish you to take it personally. I am sorry it was expressed and perceived in such a mannor.

The reconcile these two statement thing was over the line and not fair. I apologize. Shouldn't get drunk and post, makes fro poor judgement.

Obviously you know what you are doing. I have not stated nor did I wish to imply othersiwse. Thankyou for outlining your system. I did see the nets in the other thread.

Thank you for sharing your experience on the threats in your area. The destruction of the habitat by pollution would definetly play a huge role in there declining numbers.

I do think that hobbyist do play a role in damaging our oceans and native populations. This si why I am such a proponent of CB seahorses. I understand the need for breeders to use WC's for genetic diversity, but IMO the rest of us need to stick with CB. I do not think hobbyists are a major threat, but we have to accept guilt where it lies. Back to the book thing, Project seahorse has put out article siting hobbyists for the decline in populations.

Have you ever considered having one of the erectus that has passed sent to be necropsied, or necropsied one yourself? They could help you identify if the problems were parasites and also be able to culture and identify strains of bacteria. I'm curious if these seahorses carry the same strains of vibrio since they live in such a cold environment.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8443088#post8443088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by acroboy
You say

"IMO there are many elements to seahorse care that are not commonly understood, that without proper knowledge and mindfulness could be extremely detrimental to the environment....shoot just about everything we do now a days does something to the environment."

I did not say that. That is two seperate statements from two different people.

 

[acroboy]

The past is the past; we now both understand and respect each others experiences.

Have you ever considered having one of the erectus that has passed sent to be necropsied, or necropsied one yourself?

Not thoroughly, I wish I had a chance too. I am getting more into the lab aspect. I bought that book on Seahorse notes as soon as I saw someone post about it. Sooner or later most likely in spring I will slowly go forward in to it.



And yes our concerns in the environment are equally important to both of us; and I respect you for having yours.
yours.

 

[pledosophy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8467416#post8467416 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by acroboy
The past is the past; we now both understand and respect each others experiences.
.

Awesome. Let's move forward. Glad we could get to this point.

The book Working Notes is great. I have my copy right next to me.

The lab aspect of it is very fascinating to me. Have been reading others findings for some time, I'm not a trained scientist myself, but find there findings remarkable. Some inredible knowledge to the hobby has come out of there.

 

[seamonkey2]

glad we can move on, but just to clarify one thing:

pledosophy, page 2 paragraph 10, "IMO there are many elements to seahorse care that are not commonly understood, that without proper knowledge and mindfulness could be extremely detrimental to the environment" this is your statement,
....shoot just about everything we do now a days does something to the environment." is my response to your statement

just to make sure we are all in the same tune

and I agree the lab results will show variation on the vibro strain, I have done some post mortem autopsis myself, to find an answer to the death, but I did not do the lab work, some people at the hosp. will know for sure I am nuts LOL

Jose

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8470474#post8470474 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seamonkey2
and I agree the lab results will show variation on the vibro strain

No doubt. Vibrio is one of, if not the most common bacteria found in the marine environment. Not all strains are pathagenic, and some only are under certain environmental conditions like poor water quality and fish with weakened immune systems. It's kind of like E. coli, some strains are beneficial and needed, and others are killers.

 

[pledosophy]

Dr Belli has done extensive research on the bacteria and it's relation to seahorses. You can read his notes in that book your sitting on Acroboy. He is a member here and posts on extremely rare occasion.

There is a special paid forum on another site that allows you to view many of his necropsies and even see the slides. Fascinating work.

I told the Doc of your work acroboy and he said he'd be up for looking at your horses if you wanted to pursuit it. It is a very thorough necropsy. Such a proceedure normally costs hundreds of dollars per seahorse.

Most of the time for hobbyists you just have to pay for shipping and pack the horse in a mannor where the bacteria will not be damaged, although I'm in no place to talk business for him. PM me if you want his info.

It seems with seahorses that they can be an asymptomatic carrier for a particular strain, or up to three strains in one case. Up on certain conditions including high temps, weakend immune systems, parasites, etc, etc the strain that they carry can take over and cause disease. There is a technicniqual explanation about the release of proteins and macrophages and such; I won't bore you with the details, but basically it takes over. Intresting that often when a seahorse is exposed to a strain they are not carriers for or have no prior resistance too, the new strain can cause immediate illness. Back to the Mexcio water analogy.

Also intresting that not all seahorses are carriers.