dino experiment

[drummereef]

Another point to bring up here guys... How many of you have an issue with NO nitrates but higher than optimal phosphate levels?

Since I started my tank with dry base rock, my tank as been what I believe to be nitrate deficient since it's inception. PO4 has always been a slight issue in my tank. Even through all the algae cycles including Dinos and even today with very little algae in the tank, NO3 is undetectable. I think this was/is a leading cause to a lot of the issues I've had using base rock.

 

[bertoni]

Chemi-Clean likely is a form of erythromycin. It's probably not an oxidizer. I'd be careful with it, since it's been known to crash tanks. If you do dose it, I'd suggest siphoning out as much of the microbial mass as possible, to limit the decay in the tank.

Lots of people report measurable phosphate with no measurable nitrate. Our fish foods seem to be higher in phosphorus than nitrate, in terms of the export capabilities of our systems.

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

my dinos were looking pretty good until today. yesterday I put another power head blasting out some more of my rock structure. It moved a lot of debris from behind the rock work. the tank was cloudy for a couple hours. Skimmer is working over time. Today my Dino's were bad. My rocks were dusted with detris.

PO4 = .05
Nitrate = 50ppm - really high
mag = 1440
ph 8.2
calcium 440

 

[DNA]

Is it not safe to say these problem dinoflagellates are present in most reef tanks?
It's just the conditions are not right for them to be able to dominate.

 

[nynick]

Chemi-Clean likely is a form of erythromycin. It's probably not an oxidizer. I'd be careful with it, since it's been known to crash tanks. If you do dose it, I'd suggest siphoning out as much of the microbial mass as possible, to limit the decay in the tank.

Lots of people report measurable phosphate with no measurable nitrate. Our fish foods seem to be higher in phosphorus than nitrate, in terms of the export capabilities of our systems.

It says on the box that it is not erythromycin but that is pretty much all that we know

I am putting it into my tank in a few hours after a really good go with a mechanical filter, a toothbrush and a turkey baster with the hopes that it will nuke my Calothrix out of the system.....fingers crossed.

I used to run planted tanks a while back and would dose nitrates straight into the tank to get rid of cyano. SW seems to have the same problems and I am curious why so many people are dosing vodka/vinegar. Would this not make the peoblem worse if carbon works best for nitrates (heard a 16:1 ratio mentioned for nitrates/phosphates consumtion with carbon dosing)

I was always wondering if anyone had tried dosing nitrates in a reef tank to give coralline and other good nutrient consumers the chance to mop up the phosphates. (For those of you not familliar with this, many Cyanos do not need nitrates as they can somehow concoct their own)

 

[Kieth71]

Another point to bring up here guys... How many of you have an issue with NO nitrates but higher than optimal phosphate levels?

Since I started my tank with dry base rock, my tank as been what I believe to be nitrate deficient since it's inception. PO4 has always been a slight issue in my tank. Even through all the algae cycles including Dinos and even today with very little algae in the tank, NO3 is undetectable. I think this was/is a leading cause to a lot of the issues I've had using base rock.

I was doseing the redsea product no3 po4 -x and it did exactly that.I had no nitrates but the po4 was always in the .04 range.While that is not exactly super high i also had some patches of hair algae that i could not get rid of-Kieth

 

[JustinGr]

My Phos levels with a Hanna device was always 0 and my Nitrates were .25 on Salifert.

Today my tank still looks Dino free. I dosed my first Lights on dose of AlgaeX today. Will dose for 2 more cycles.

Justin

 

[tmz]

Another point to bring up here guys... How many of you have an issue with NO nitrates but higher than optimal phosphate levels?

Since I started my tank with dry base rock, my tank as been what I believe to be nitrate deficient since it's inception. PO4 has always been a slight issue in my tank. Even through all the algae cycles including Dinos and even today with very little algae in the tank, NO3 is undetectable. I think this was/is a leading cause to a lot of the issues I've had using base rock.

Well some of that rock will leach phosphates that have adsorb to it's surface. Some live rock will do that too. Treatment wiht lanthanum chloride over a week or two in a curing bin can get rid of it.
On point, I don't think PO4 is a major player in dinoflagellate problems.

 

[tmz]

Is it not safe to say these problem dinoflagellates are present in most reef tanks?
It's just the conditions are not right for them to be able to dominate.

I don't know. They seem to be ubiquitous and often come in undetected with new livestock if there aren't some there already that just feed on the new organics or breakdown products introduced with a new piece of rock . Changing conditions seem to give them an edge. Nobody knows what those conditions are precisely. They do fine in low PO4/NO3 tanks, the typical nutrients we measure. So, maybe it's an organic or trace element issue perhaps an orp issue related to oxidation potential, lack of competition for some food source, high total organic carbon or something else entirely.

 

[nynick]

Is it not safe to say these problem dinoflagellates are present in most reef tanks?
It's just the conditions are not right for them to be able to dominate.

I am not sure but it does not sound likely given that the "algae" types most people have the most persistant problems with have no known cleaners avaliable to the hobby. Many of them also do fine in a variety of water contitions. The conditions are pretty much great for them to dominate at any given time.

My guess would be that they are in your tank simply because they were introduced. I know that you can boil tap water, put it in sterile glass jar in the sun and algae will grow of varieties that can spread through air but if this was the case for Dinos or Bryopsis for example they would be in everyones tank.

 

[DNA]

Three months ago I got this frag pictured below.
At the same time I made a new and more efficient bio pellet reactor.
Also at this time I switched my salt to one of the pro ones.
I replaced the halide bulbs with ones more yellow and I estimated they were four times brighter to my eyes.
The only livestock added was Cheato last fall.

I restarted my tank 14 months ago and after a few weeks I got diatoms on the sand.
A year later I still have diatoms on the sand, but they hated the new bulbs and the sand went instantly from dark brown to very light brown except in the shadows.
I posted somewhere that I thought diatoms are light intensity or color temperature dependent, but got no replies on that.

Shortly after I started to see brown dust on my rocks that was very easy to blow off and siphon from the sand.
I have not taken a close look, but I'm pretty sure I got both diatoms and dinoflagellates and they leave incredible amounts of biomass.
This has been going on for two months now so I came here looking for ideas. Raised pH is going to be my first shot.

In my case I find changed conditions to be the most likely cause of the outbreak.
Vastly different bulbs, bio pellet reactor, "pro" salt or a combination of these.


---
Acropora is doing good.
Coraline is covered with a white mat and has bleached.
Birdsnest is constantly coverd with strands of dinos and is not doing good.
Same goes for pocillopora.

 

[bob1435]

Here was my fix...

72 hours of no lights and a daily cleaning and sock changing.

Then treat with chemiclean as directed... Continue sock changing

Then put the carbon back in and manually clean the rocks daily with a brush and turkey baster..... changing the socks....

Finally dose Pohles (Zeovite) Coral Snow with zeobak for two weeks. Continue manual cleaning and changing of socks...




It has been 4 months with no Dino.... If a see a bubble or two i hit it with the turkey baster and a dose of coral snow/ zeobak.

I am giving this approach a try. Seems to be the safest and easiest...

 

[nynick]

.....and if you do try Chemiclean, when they tell you to turn off skimming, believe them

I said to myself, meh, I will just let it overflow back into the tank. BAD IDEA, very, very bad idea. Did you ever see one of those menthos/coke pranks on youtube? That is what happened to my skimmer.

 

[JustinGr]

I'm going to toss this out. My tank ran fine and was thriving before the Dino attack. I had two Maxima clams, one small and one about the size of a baseball, and had both about 6 months. Both had new growth and were perfect one day and the next day, both were dead, and on the following day, Dino.

I have two fish in this tank, a breeding pair of Darwin Clowns for the same period and they never bothered the clams.

Within another 24 hours, all my Mexican Turbo’s were dead. The only snails to survive were the crowery, they are still in the tank to this day.

 

[t4zalews]

You know what's frustrating...having the tank 99% clear of dinos, but then you see a small half inch strand with bubbles on your overflow. So close. Tell you what, makes you look at bubbles on your rock in a whole different way. I see my nassarius snails moving now at night and my fighting conch roams the sandbed. dino's blew out all my ceriths..good thing they are the cheapest snail :hmm2:

 

[t4zalews]

I was trying to find the original post to quote it but couldnt regarding the above post with chemiclean. The chemiclean did not effect your dinos. The lights out and diligent rock cleaning did. I've found that when my dinos were at their peak, I had tons of detritis in the rocks, I would constantly be blasting them with a turkey baster to get it suspended and hopefully taken in by the overflow. I think socks (felt) are critical in helping with dinos. Whether it be siphonign water from the tank through them or by using them with your overflow. I have very little detritus in my rocks anymore and hope to keep it that way with the new flow I've configured for the tank. The two may not be related but I noticed a different when I was blowing off the rocks more.

 

[tmz]

Dinos are toxic to mollusks, in particular.
I think detritus accumulations may have something to do with it in some cases. Generally, detritus build ups contribute to many nasty things including nuisance algae and cyano bacteria; decay adds acids and other breakdown products and CO2 which could help the dinofalgellates.

 

[DNA]

tmz, I would have to agree on what you say about detritus.
The more complex materials in the later stages of decomposition would be of interest.

After a few hundred passes of a powerhead blowing detritus and dinos off the rocks I have come to this conclusion.
The most efficient way to get rid of a lot of it is to turn all circulation off, do a few thorough passes over the rocks and let the detritus set on the sand and siphon it out.

Taylor I believe the die off from dinos to look identical to normal detritus.

 

[bertoni]

It says on the box that it is not erythromycin but that is pretty much all that we know

In the past, the container said it didn't contain erythromycin succinate, but there are other forms of erythromycin. They might have changed the product, I suppose.

 

[barjam]

In the past, the container said it didn't contain erythromycin succinate, but there are other forms of erythromycin. They might have changed the product, I suppose.

It has been a long time ago but I seem to remember the Germans (or some other European country) having an issue because over there you can't sell antibiotics without a prescription. Apparently this tested positive for some other erythromycin form.

Take this with a grain of salt. I think was discussed 8+ years ago so I could be mistaken.