dino experiment
- Thread starter t4zalews
- Start date
I've done the lights out for 2-3 days many times, never a problem for fish or coral. I've always taken some extra time to bring the lights back up to normal though, maybe 1-2 week slow ramp up.
I've always continued dosing alk/cal/mag supplements during lights out, but you may want to monitor levels just to make sure they don't get out of line. Seems like numbers would go up a bit during lights out but nothing too extreme.
I've always continued dosing alk/cal/mag supplements during lights out, but you may want to monitor levels just to make sure they don't get out of line. Seems like numbers would go up a bit during lights out but nothing too extreme.
Pants
Member
Thelights out method is a good way of cuttting the population down (just like physical removal) but none of the dinos I've isolated from people's tanks would be completely killed that way. Most survive a couple weeks in the mail (as long as they don't freeze), so they can take prolong periods of darkness. To exterminate them you'll need to couple lights out with some other change.
I'm starting to see some positive results from my "new" nutrient rich way to fight these things. The dinos started to show when my tank would be considered "low nutrient". The macro algae stopped growing and nitrates/phosphates were both zero and had been zero for some time. Dinos started to aggressively grow on the rocks, sand, coral, and tank sides.
I did a 3 day blackout, which helped but they came back of course. I tried raising pH with kalk dosing, adding kalk slurry all at once, raising my alk, etc. over the course of a couple weeks. Nothing seemed to slow the dinos down so I looked for another way.
I did another 2 day blackout to slow them down, followed by a couple of 25% water changes. I started dosing nitrate at low levels. I took out the gfo media (still run some carbon). I started feeding more and add amino acids daily. I built an upflow algae turf scrubber out of a small paint roller tray. I want to see algae somewhere in the tank or on the algae scrubber. When dinos are present, there is no algae.
I realized that my potassium level was very low, around 320 so I brought my potassium levels up to 400. I now have low levels of nitrate and phosphate showing on the tests. I've even started dosing some silica to see if I can get a diatom bloom. I've dosed a bit of iron and iodide after testing showed those to be low (not sure if the tests are all that good though). I wouldn't mind a diatom or even a cyano bloom at this point, anything is better than dinos.
So I'm basically adding fertilizer to my tank. The result so far...dinos are starting to disappear. The sand looks better, the rock is almost clear of them, the corals are starting to look much better. I'm hopeful at this point.
I did a 3 day blackout, which helped but they came back of course. I tried raising pH with kalk dosing, adding kalk slurry all at once, raising my alk, etc. over the course of a couple weeks. Nothing seemed to slow the dinos down so I looked for another way.
I did another 2 day blackout to slow them down, followed by a couple of 25% water changes. I started dosing nitrate at low levels. I took out the gfo media (still run some carbon). I started feeding more and add amino acids daily. I built an upflow algae turf scrubber out of a small paint roller tray. I want to see algae somewhere in the tank or on the algae scrubber. When dinos are present, there is no algae.
I realized that my potassium level was very low, around 320 so I brought my potassium levels up to 400. I now have low levels of nitrate and phosphate showing on the tests. I've even started dosing some silica to see if I can get a diatom bloom. I've dosed a bit of iron and iodide after testing showed those to be low (not sure if the tests are all that good though). I wouldn't mind a diatom or even a cyano bloom at this point, anything is better than dinos.
So I'm basically adding fertilizer to my tank. The result so far...dinos are starting to disappear. The sand looks better, the rock is almost clear of them, the corals are starting to look much better. I'm hopeful at this point.
Pants
Member
I can't believe you are still fighting this stuff. Glad to hear something is working. In my algae-centric way of thinking I've always thought everyone should be running an algae turf scrubber. If built right it should be small and easy to maintain, and a much cheaper way of lowering nutrient levels than other methods available.
I wanted to mention that when I was sending out mailers for people to send me their dinos I also asked people to complete a survey. I only had 2 people report that they had tried raising pH but the one for whom it worked was dealing with Amphidinium sp. I'd love to get some more data on that.
I wanted to mention that when I was sending out mailers for people to send me their dinos I also asked people to complete a survey. I only had 2 people report that they had tried raising pH but the one for whom it worked was dealing with Amphidinium sp. I'd love to get some more data on that.
I actually took a little break from fighting them. Last summer, I finally broke down the tank completely and started over. I had about 5 good months before the dinos made their return. This time, I'm willing to try just about anything to find a solution - even "fertilizer".
Pants
Member
I have no personal experience with either. I might know biology, but I'm a newbie at keeping corals. That said, I would think that something like an algae turf scrubber would have biological benefits (biological diversity) beyond simply removing nitrates and phosphates that gfo wouldn't have.
It also adapts at the drop of a pin. My ghetto version is amazing and will change color every now and then. It goes from little bubbly light green algae and all of a sudden long dark stringy and then over to red as different nutrient levels favor them.
Try to make GFO do that.
My scrubber is simply an old HoB filter with a filter pad draped over it and a lamp. Works amazing and unlike other scrubbers this one grows Cyano.
GFO removes phosphate ,silicate and some metals . ATS algae consumes phosphate and other nutrients and elements but also releases organic compounds
as exudates . Many of these are refractory ,ie,resistive to bacterial decay, some discolor the water, some are allelopathic,ie, toxic other organisms. Macro algae in refugia do much the same as an ats . Both add organics to the water that should be accounted for. Growing cyano is not something I want to do in any case .
as exudates . Many of these are refractory ,ie,resistive to bacterial decay, some discolor the water, some are allelopathic,ie, toxic other organisms. Macro algae in refugia do much the same as an ats . Both add organics to the water that should be accounted for. Growing cyano is not something I want to do in any case .
SurlyT
Member
Tagging along with this thread. Pants was kind enough to ID my dino problem as Ostreopsis.
I have only rudimentary info about the nutrient levels in my system (readings on nitrites, nitrates and phosphates from commercial test kits and AWT), so I decided not to start with the fertilizer approach. I figured my best initial bet would be a pass with Fauna Marin's Ultra Algae X in conjunction with greatly reduced lighting. So far I'm only 2 doses in and I expect to go at least 3 doses more, but it seems to be making a difference already.
Incidentally, I think the toxin in the Ostreopsis must be released as it dies back. The first dose of Algae X cost me a nice Burgess butterflyfish, and I've noticed a distinctly funky smell coming from my overflow, filter socks and skimmer. My family even says their eyes have been bothering them when in that part of the house.
I have only rudimentary info about the nutrient levels in my system (readings on nitrites, nitrates and phosphates from commercial test kits and AWT), so I decided not to start with the fertilizer approach. I figured my best initial bet would be a pass with Fauna Marin's Ultra Algae X in conjunction with greatly reduced lighting. So far I'm only 2 doses in and I expect to go at least 3 doses more, but it seems to be making a difference already.
Incidentally, I think the toxin in the Ostreopsis must be released as it dies back. The first dose of Algae X cost me a nice Burgess butterflyfish, and I've noticed a distinctly funky smell coming from my overflow, filter socks and skimmer. My family even says their eyes have been bothering them when in that part of the house.
Pants
Member
Eek! I'm sorry I haven't written you a more detailed description yet. The toxins these dinoflagellates make are thought to deter herbivory and as such are not released until the cell is lysed when it dies. When we watch fish kills from red tides the kill occurs as the bloom is subsiding. So, much like when killing flatworms, its a good idea to run carbon when killing a dino bloom.
The toxin Ostreopsis makes is similar to that of Palythoas. It is potent stuff. When I stupidly sniffed your algae sample I was looking for that characteristic smell. Its a large species over 100 microns long and 70-80 wide, so a filter sock could pull them out nicely.
The toxin Ostreopsis makes is similar to that of Palythoas. It is potent stuff. When I stupidly sniffed your algae sample I was looking for that characteristic smell. Its a large species over 100 microns long and 70-80 wide, so a filter sock could pull them out nicely.
SurlyT
Member
No worries about the write-up.
Fauna Marin specifically recommends against running carbon, dosing trace elements or doing water changes during the treatment period, so I'm going to hold off on the carbon as long as I can.
Knowing it's a large species is helpful. I'm getting good extraction with a combination of 200μ/100μ filter socks.
DNA
New member
Surly, make sure to post your results here since I've tried AlgaeX on Ostreopsis with very negative results.
I personally think dealing with Ostreopsis without carbon is a real health risk so be careful and take all the precautions you can.
For details you can check out my RC thread here.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000
I personally think dealing with Ostreopsis without carbon is a real health risk so be careful and take all the precautions you can.
For details you can check out my RC thread here.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000
Pants
Member
I have been trying to collect data on dino extermination methods as I've identified species for people. You can find a link to the survey here. this is also where I plan to eventually put more info on these.
You can also find video of Surly's Ostreopsis on my youtube channel
You can also find video of Surly's Ostreopsis on my youtube channel
SurlyT
Member
Quick update on my attempt to fight Ostreopsis with Algae X.
I've been on the dosing regimen for 12 days now (6 doses), trying to follow Fauna Marin's instructions closely. As I mentioned before, I have a pair of filter socks (one inside the other) for mechanical filtration down to 100 μm, and I'm skimming as wet as I can without risking an overflow. I've removed my carbon reactor, done no water changes and have only dosed alk and calcium (no trace elements). I also reduced my lighting so that I ran only moonlights and my weak actinic LEDs for the first week.
At the risk of angering the reef gods, I'd say my results have been very good so far. The dinos on the rocks went first, with those on the sand being the last to thin out. At this point I really don't see them in the tank at all, even after ramping the MHs back up to a few hours a day. There are a few tufts of them in my overflow, but they're grey and powdery looking now instead of reddish brown and stringy. Probably just residual debris.
Admittedly my outbreak wasn't nearly as bad as some other folks have described. And it'll take months before I'm willing to say I actually beat them. But I will say that my tank looks a lot better than it did 2 weeks ago, and I'm cautiously optimistic for the moment.
I'll probably reinstall the carbon reactor tomorrow and continue bringing the lights back up to full cycle over the next week or so. I also plan to install an algae scrubber after I feel the Algae X has thinned out. Will post another update after some more time has passed.
I've been on the dosing regimen for 12 days now (6 doses), trying to follow Fauna Marin's instructions closely. As I mentioned before, I have a pair of filter socks (one inside the other) for mechanical filtration down to 100 μm, and I'm skimming as wet as I can without risking an overflow. I've removed my carbon reactor, done no water changes and have only dosed alk and calcium (no trace elements). I also reduced my lighting so that I ran only moonlights and my weak actinic LEDs for the first week.
At the risk of angering the reef gods, I'd say my results have been very good so far. The dinos on the rocks went first, with those on the sand being the last to thin out. At this point I really don't see them in the tank at all, even after ramping the MHs back up to a few hours a day. There are a few tufts of them in my overflow, but they're grey and powdery looking now instead of reddish brown and stringy. Probably just residual debris.
Admittedly my outbreak wasn't nearly as bad as some other folks have described. And it'll take months before I'm willing to say I actually beat them. But I will say that my tank looks a lot better than it did 2 weeks ago, and I'm cautiously optimistic for the moment.
I'll probably reinstall the carbon reactor tomorrow and continue bringing the lights back up to full cycle over the next week or so. I also plan to install an algae scrubber after I feel the Algae X has thinned out. Will post another update after some more time has passed.
Chris Abbott
New member
My question is about the come and go nature of these things. Are they dispersing at night and then congregating under the light during the day?
2nd What do you think of the idea of creating a place they like to grow, cleaning and repeat. I am curios if they would, eventually exhaust whatever they are thriving on. I do not by the idea that they are a byproduct of high nutrients. I am thinking more nutrient imbalance which decreases other normal flora allowing these to bloom.
2nd What do you think of the idea of creating a place they like to grow, cleaning and repeat. I am curios if they would, eventually exhaust whatever they are thriving on. I do not by the idea that they are a byproduct of high nutrients. I am thinking more nutrient imbalance which decreases other normal flora allowing these to bloom.
