dino experiment

I should also mention that I've looked at dino samples from tanks where people thought they eradicated the dino only to have it come back months later. The new dino outbreak is not always the same species. I have a sample now from someone who originally had Amphidinium and now has Ostreopsis.
 
I can't help but wonder if dinos are in virtually every tank but only take over when conditions suit them. My thought is control is possible, but elimination is unrealistic. Am I way off base?

Mine are in control, sort of.. I have given up trying to kill them off..
When I start seeing the glass stay clean of the algea film for a day or two, the dinos will start popping up everywhere. I increase my feeding,the hair algae and the algae in the overflow trough start coming back, the dinos start going away. When that happens the sponge growth I have on one rock will puff up and start to spread, the GSP start to look real nice ...
I still have the dinos but they are not really noticable, a few ares the size of a quarter, they get much bigger and the turbos wipe them out..
I have a water change coming up, I am thinking about driving down to the coast and getting enough water to do that, see if I can get more good critters that way..

sorry if I am rambling, its just me..:spin2:
 
I suspect there are some dinoflagellates in every tank. There are a lot of species, and they are rather adaptable.
 
Had to move some stuff around the other day.. Moved a Magnificent Foxface, a frag rack, and some corals to a clean tank under 2 175watt MH, and had dinos flare up on the frag rack and the corals,, put them back into the old tank (under T5's) and they faded...
As they are both using the same sump I thought this was a little wierd...
 
Definitely took a while to pore over this thread, but I'm certainly following along now and will add my personal experience to the mix. My dino issue began shortly after I began carbon dosing w/ Red Sea NOPOX. I started my initial dose at 0.1ml per 25 gallons (which is quite low) and what I experienced was a rather abrupt increase in my hair algae. I was told that this was the live rock leeching out the phosphates and was completely normal. So eventually when it seemed that the algae was too much to bear, I bumped the dosage to 0.25 ml per 25g.

This small bump seems to have been the catalyst for my outbreak, but fortunately I was doing daily tests of my NO3 and PO4. At 0.1ml my NO3 was undetectable, but my PO4 was still a bit elevated. Quickly I noticed that my hair algae was being covered by this brown slimy substance, but I presumed that it was just the NOPOX doing it's work, and so I slowly bumped my dosage up to 3ml per 25g. The outbreak was never really all that bad and didn't seem toxic to any of my livestock. The only thing it seems to affect are my zoas and my RBTA. In fact, I thought that I had gained the upper hand after moving my tank recently. However, after positively identifying what I had as dinos, I can now look back and see that it was only the period of darkness that put a small dent in the population (or just kept it in the water column).

Fast forward to today - I just recently put a somewhere over the rainbow frag in the tank and decided to get more aggressive with my treatment since the dinos I have tend to avoid my more established sps, but seem to like hanging around the tips of my newer frags. My first action was to reduce my NOPOX dosage down to 2ml. I noticed a near immediate uptick in the amount of dinos as they went from simply a few strands in several places to longer strands in more places with the tell-tale bubbles. So of course my reaction was to go back to 3ml; it seems like this was where some sort of weird equilibrium was reached between the organisms competing for nutrients in the tank? So once I got back to the base amount of dinos that I was used to, I upped the dosage to 4ml thinking that this should work to some extent. Strangely enough, the increase in dose had the same effect!

So today, I decided to stop dosing NOPOX altogether since I know I'm going to see a dino increase regardless of which way I go. Plus, I have Dino X showing up here in a couple days, and it's my understanding that I can't carbon dose while dosing the medication, so this should give me a couple days to see what happens before the Dino X gets here. With no dose, I do see an increase in dinos on the rocks, substrate, and a few corals, so my focus has been only to turkey baste those areas that I'm trying to protect. I figure that blowing it all into the water column is only inviting them to re-land on those sensitive areas. Fortunately, that's one strategy that has worked today! I gotta say that I'm extremely grateful that the dinos I have are not toxic!

As far as a little extra information, I've been skimming very wet the entire time. I only recently found out that my pH seems to be off the charts. I used the Red Sea test which ranges from green to dark blue...mine was royal purple, so I'm assuming that I have a pH somewhere in the range of 8.8 to 9.0, but I have an electronic probe coming in the mail, so I will have more clarity on that soon. The good thing about that is that I know that that's one treatment that has already been administered :P I've decided not to do any lights out just yet because from what I've read, this only seems to be like a pause button and there doesn't seem to be any consistent results. I will lessen the photo period when I dose the Dino X, but that's about it. Hopefully, I can pick up a microscope soon and get an ID on this.
 
Ok, took my water to LFS today to get tested. Fortunately, my pH is at 8.2, but my Red Sea pH test doesn't like my water for whatever reason. So I can try to raise my pH to see if it has any affect on this.
 
Dino before treatment at 100x magnification:



And after:



I'm fairly certain these are ostreopsis just by going to Pants' website and comparing what I saw to what's on the site. It certainly seems to be acting a bit more aggressive now that I've begun treatment. I have a bali green slimer that is getting hit rather hard, but I just did my first dose of Dino X last night. I'm going to try the same experiment now, but adding a few drops of Dino X instead of H2O2.
 
I haven't seen anything like the above experiment and I was having fun with the microscope, so I went ahead and did another one to document the effects of Dino X on the dinoflagellates in my tank; this is before treating with DinoX:



And this is after:



Honestly, I didn't notice much difference in the activity levels between the two, but it did seem as though after the treatment they were a little more sluggish. My next experiments will see the effects of fresh water and sea water with Seachem Reef Buffer added (trying to simulate heightened pH level).
 
Next experiment: Dinos versus freshwater bath:



And after:



This test seems to have a similar outcome to the Dino X, but I think the difference here is that the Dino X is meant to be a treatment over a period of time, and with this test I only took the salinity down to 1.011. Now, I've read that that should be enough to do the job, but perhaps I didn't drop it fast enough. But I never considered a FW bath as a viable option to treat my particular problem.
 
Last test: Dinoflagellate Ostreopsis versus elevated pH

Here, I added RODI buffered to 10.0 pH (measured with an electric meter) using Seachem Reef Buffer:



And 10 minutes later:



Similar to the Hydrogen Peroxide treatment, this knocked out the dinos in relatively short order. I gave this one about 10 minutes to do the work, and as you can see, it was about a 97% reduction in live dinos in that time period. Granted, we would never raise our pH that high in our own tanks, but I wanted to try and expedite the process if possible.

From what I've seen here, it seems that H2O2 and higher pH really seem to do the trick on this particular strain of dinos, but this is a very small controlled experiment. Right now I have just completed my first treatment of Dino X and I did not a pretty significant reduction of dinos in my tank today. Unfortunately, it seems as though they get more desperate as they begin to die off. They spent more time attacking my coral than on the sand and rock like they normally were. Will update with results soon.
 
Dino X is useless against ostreopsis and many other dinoflagellates. It will be counterproductive to use as it will decimate all the small critters (pods) and micro algae which would outcompete ostreopsis.
 
Try the following, it worked for me: switch off skimmer, run a germicidal uv lamp in the night, feed a bit heavier (frozen food is OK) and NEVER turkey baster, just siphon the gunk outside.
 
I've already started down the Dino X path, so I'm gonna go ahead and ride it out. I know that everyone's experience is different in this regard. Tonight after lights out I'll administer the second dose, but this is what I've noticed so far: I've noticed about a 50% reduction in visible dinos and the ones I do see now seem to be going after my acros, especially my bali green slimer. Normally, I would do exactly what you're saying and not turkey baste at all, but this stuff is aggressively eating my acro. I want to do whatever I can to save it, regardless if I have to baste it every hour.

As far as the skimmer goes, I did exactly that, but not intentionally. The night before I gave the first Dino X dose, my Aquamaxx HOB-XC pump went out overnight, and boy was my tank ****ed off! Since I was carbon dosing w/ Red Sea No3Po4-X, the tank is heavily stocked and fed, so no one was happy about losing the skimmer...except for the dinos.

I also did a full spectrum of tests today and after nearly two months, my nitrates have finally climbed from 0 to 1. I'm pretty excited about this because my dino problem started shortly after my nitrates hit 0 while carbon dosing. I truly believe that something bad happens when either No3 or Po4 hit 0 while the other is slightly elevated. From what I've researched, it seems more likely that people develop dinos at 0 nitrates and cyano at 0 phosphates, but like I've said, every tank is different.
 
Beautiful microscopy! If you get really bored, could you check whether a coral dip kills dinosÉ I suspect it does not.

I suspect having N and P at actual zero is Bad in general. I currently have mild cyano and terrible dinos. *sigh*

Glad you are seeing good results with the dino x and I hope your bali slimer makes it.

Ivy
 
I would totally do that test if I had some coral dip on hand! Sadly, if I had taken the time to dip my corals before adding them, it's possible this wouldn't have occurred, but who knows? I'm so sorry to hear that you're going through both cyano and dinos simultaneously, I can't imagine treating that! Sounds like you have a pretty nasty case over there considering you lost your fish and inverts.

Today, I saw even more improvement in the tank. Some of the coral, especially the zoas, are beginning to open back up, even the slimer in the areas that haven't been zapped. I really don't want to have to readdress this problem though, so I'm going to do the full 10 treatments of Dino X unless I see some dramatic change in the tank. But so far things are looking better. I do wish that I could get my skimmer to skim a bit wetter, but that's asking a bit much since I just replaced it a few days ago. However, I will say that the Eshopps PSK 100H seems to be a lot more efficient than the Aquamaxx HOB-XC that I had previously, but that's a post for a different forum :)
 
Just to update here, I've given 4 treatments of Dino X and at this point I'm finding it difficult to locate dinos in the tank. The coral, and especially my RBTA are looking quite happy despite elevated nitrates and phosphates (15 and 0.19 respectively). Even though I had to replace my skimmer on day 1 of treatment, the Dino X seems to be working quite well, and it hasn't killed any of my inverts thus far. Besides reducing the light period to a total of 6 hours, I haven't added any other treatments so that I can objectively say whether the Dino X alone took down this filthy pest. Right now I'm optimistic, but what really matters is whether the dinos stay gone once the treatment period is over with. Anyhow, the camera doesn't quite show it too well, but things are starting to look pretty clean in there.


 
Do dinos react to external stimuli?

Do dinos react to external stimuli?

Every now and then I observe the glass of my fuge using my nanoscope, just to see what is going on. In the past I have observed what I assumed was dinos circling on the glass. At 48x magnification they appeared as small circles moving in a repetitive circular motion. Recently I started dosing live phyto into the fuge, and I noticed that the number of these UMO (unidentified microscopic organisms) have increased.

If they are dinos, that is probably not a good thing, but I am starting to wonder if they might just be the napuli of pods or seed shrimp that I am observing, both of which are present as adults. I have noticed that they seem to react to the larger worms and pods that move about on the glass, they change their circle patterns suddenly when approached, like they are reacting to a threat.

Here is a video to illustrate. My apologies about the quality. Holding the PVC glass stand, nanoscope and phone, while recording a video proved challenging.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0T4Bupsm47g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So my question is, even though dinos have flagellates, and can move, do they react to external stimuli?

Dennis
 
Back
Top