BigJohnny
Active member
Gotcha, makes sense
Dinoflagellates.
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Quiet_Ivy
New member
Some species of dino can use alkalinity (bicarbonates) directly as a carbon source. They have way too many biochemical tricks up their sleeves.
Re education: Did you guys all see Lucidog's posts? He had what sure looked like dinos, it killed off his CuC, but turns out it's Calothrix, a cyanobacteria! Impossible to confuse the two under a microscope. Perhaps we should start suggesting a trial of chemiclean to people who may have dinos.
I'm back home! Tank looks awful, rescued clownfish has a suspicious patch of white scales. I see a couple of dead ceriths too, not a great sign. Nitrates zero, phos maaaaybe .03.
New word: Oikotaxy- tropism exhibited by elderly men with bad hips and repairs involving ladders.
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BigJohnny
Active member
I'm not sure if I have dinos or some brown cyano or calothrix so I was actually going to try chemiclean first. Can't hurt right? I've got a little red cyano anyway
Did I hear my name?
So I got my sample under a scope and it's not Dino's (or at least the 3 spots I checked weren't). It's most definitely a strain of cyano, likely calothrix (resembles Dino's almost exactly, although may have some hair like features along with the snot)
FWIW - I ran 2 doses of chemiclean and it didn't touch this stuff. In fact, it's worse now after the frequent large water changes (30% x2 over 5 days).
I'm still battling seriously high phosphates, and I know that doesn't help, but they shouldn't impact a bacterial strain like this. I can already feel the knot forming... This is going to be just as bad.
Definitely encourage those who come here to get an ID. Calothrix is just the same. Same snot like texture, same classic nitrogen bubbles, same mass die off of snails. I did send photos to Pants, and he even agreed Dino's (prior to microscope). They look the same.
So I got my sample under a scope and it's not Dino's (or at least the 3 spots I checked weren't). It's most definitely a strain of cyano, likely calothrix (resembles Dino's almost exactly, although may have some hair like features along with the snot)
FWIW - I ran 2 doses of chemiclean and it didn't touch this stuff. In fact, it's worse now after the frequent large water changes (30% x2 over 5 days).
I'm still battling seriously high phosphates, and I know that doesn't help, but they shouldn't impact a bacterial strain like this. I can already feel the knot forming... This is going to be just as bad.
Definitely encourage those who come here to get an ID. Calothrix is just the same. Same snot like texture, same classic nitrogen bubbles, same mass die off of snails. I did send photos to Pants, and he even agreed Dino's (prior to microscope). They look the same.
jonasroman
New member
I agree with almost Everything. I have struggled with dinos 7 times, and tried Everything. My brief conclusions is:
1)Algenex works, but the dinos will often be back and the corals suffer some from algenex.
2) cut off the light works but only for the moment. it will be back
3) Probiotica does not work
4) Rising ph is difficult and has no clear effect. I have red some studies that tell the counterpart but i doubt...
The only cure i succeded with is to eliminate all the sand, as it Always start there. Then, rinse the sand in H20 ands replace after one week. It has in my all cases succeded with 100%!
I have also noticed one more thing: There is a Connection between fine sand(up to around 1 mm) and more dino. In an aquarium with mixed sandbed i noticed that there was no dino in the bed with grain size over 2 mm, all the dinos was in the sugarsand. After that i swithed to grain size around 2-5 mm and i have had no dinos since.
I can throw the opposite out. My sandbed was 2-5mm and I had dino. I removed it and the Dino just moved to the rocks.
I think only certain types of Dino are affected by cure X. High PH seems to kill some types of Dino. I think the proper way to tackle them is to try multiple things and maybe even go down a list of things to try in a certain order (from easiest to hardest or maybe risk).
For instance. X notices dinoflagellates.
Lowest Risk:
1) Stop Water Changes
2) Add Pods and feed phyto
3) Lights Outs for 3-4 days
4) Siphon Sand bed
4) If this is positive do the same thing 1-2 times a month until Dino is gone
Medium Risk:
1) Start building up bacteria and other competition (pods)
2) Lights out
3) Siphon Sand bed
High Risk:
1) Dose H2O2 at X rate while lights out
2) Keep Lights out for 3-4 days and continue daily dose of H2O2
3) Remove Sandbed
Thats why I think it would be nice for someone who is smarter than me to write up a Article about dino and list out a plan to tackle them. Show all options (UV, H2O2, pods, Bacteria additions, No Water changes, lights out etc....). The article should also go into identification and how it is believed that they can work with Cyano. Explain a microscope is a sure way to ID it and show examples of different types along with Dino/Cyano blends.
jonasroman
New member
natas, you have to remove very very carefully ALL sand, every grain...wait one or two weeks...AND if you already have some one the rocks this is not sufficient as you say. According to my experience dinos nearly almost start at the sand, so if you do not wait to it go to the rock, you can eliminate it with sand extraction. But, it is very important to take everything out and that is not so easy. concerning grain size it is a "medium risk" maybe, so of course you can get dino in that grain size, but in my tanks it has come much faster with more fine sand.
Algea X has not worked for me, maybe because different dinos as you say, but Algenex is frequently used in Sweden with almost always 100% success, BUT big recurrence rate!..
I promise you...let me struggle an aquarium with dino only in the sanded and i will get rid of it. It is the only way that really worked for me, and the aquarist i have helped the last year. But i cannot enough stress, that this is not the true if you have it on the rocks. The you have to remove the rocks and clean them off in saltwater, and then observe carefully, and wait to introduce sand to you cannot see anymore dinos.
Algea X has not worked for me, maybe because different dinos as you say, but Algenex is frequently used in Sweden with almost always 100% success, BUT big recurrence rate!..
I promise you...let me struggle an aquarium with dino only in the sanded and i will get rid of it. It is the only way that really worked for me, and the aquarist i have helped the last year. But i cannot enough stress, that this is not the true if you have it on the rocks. The you have to remove the rocks and clean them off in saltwater, and then observe carefully, and wait to introduce sand to you cannot see anymore dinos.
jonasroman
New member
concerning siphoning sandbeds i have the opposite experience, that this is worsening the problem already the day after...you disturb the normal flora but the dinos is left.
All these methods have been tried and tested several times. Dino's are never gone, just kept in check by some mysterious boundary. The most knowledgable scientists can't tell you how to completely eradicate them, so I am more then a little sceptical. Unless you have been without Dino's for 12 months, I don't consider you Dino free.
What strain of Dino's did you have.
What strain of Dino's did you have.
Quiet_Ivy
New member
@jonasroman My experience with sandbeds mirrors yours. My dinos aren't on the sand much at all, they prefer the glass and rocks. Siphoning my sandbed actually made them worse. This may be species dependent, we just don't know.
@natas I've been fooling with a summary/flow chart sort of thing for identifying dinos. I tried to make a graph of all the methods of kill mentioned in this thread, but it's not going to be possible. Single methods tend not to work, and I am becoming certain that different genera have different vulnerabilities. Also I can't figure out how to make a chart comparing various groups and multiple methods.
tldr version: first things I'd try (all of these at the same time): stop water changes, pull chemical filtration except carbon, siphon what you can, run skimmer very wet, add a lot of carbon and do a 3 day lights out. Add filter socks or as much mechanical filtration as you can. I use cheesecloth in my aio. You'll need to change the socks at least daily, more during lights out.
It's very important to skim and run carbon during lights out. Longer lights out knock dinos back, but rarely kill them off completely. Lower photoperiod doesn't seem to have any effect either.
2nd step is probably: You want measurable nitrates, ~1 or 2, and phosphate around 0.03. (Less nitrate in an SPS tank) Add a lot of biodiversity, dose phyto, feed as many kinds of foods w different particle sizes as you can afford, stop skimming, pull all chemical media except carbon. If you have a reactor, try raising pH to 8.4 (If you don't it's nearly impossible unless you're home to add kalk on the hour)
3rd step: technology and chemistry
hth
ivy
biodiversity: pods from different sources (try to get benthic pods or a mix of copepods, amphipods, isopods etc), macroalgae, rocks, sand from fellow reefers, skimmate from someone with a good tank (yes, really), detrivore or maintenance kits from IPSF, reefcleaners, tbs
@natas I've been fooling with a summary/flow chart sort of thing for identifying dinos. I tried to make a graph of all the methods of kill mentioned in this thread, but it's not going to be possible. Single methods tend not to work, and I am becoming certain that different genera have different vulnerabilities. Also I can't figure out how to make a chart comparing various groups and multiple methods.
tldr version: first things I'd try (all of these at the same time): stop water changes, pull chemical filtration except carbon, siphon what you can, run skimmer very wet, add a lot of carbon and do a 3 day lights out. Add filter socks or as much mechanical filtration as you can. I use cheesecloth in my aio. You'll need to change the socks at least daily, more during lights out.
It's very important to skim and run carbon during lights out. Longer lights out knock dinos back, but rarely kill them off completely. Lower photoperiod doesn't seem to have any effect either.
2nd step is probably: You want measurable nitrates, ~1 or 2, and phosphate around 0.03. (Less nitrate in an SPS tank) Add a lot of biodiversity, dose phyto, feed as many kinds of foods w different particle sizes as you can afford, stop skimming, pull all chemical media except carbon. If you have a reactor, try raising pH to 8.4 (If you don't it's nearly impossible unless you're home to add kalk on the hour)
3rd step: technology and chemistry
hth
ivy
biodiversity: pods from different sources (try to get benthic pods or a mix of copepods, amphipods, isopods etc), macroalgae, rocks, sand from fellow reefers, skimmate from someone with a good tank (yes, really), detrivore or maintenance kits from IPSF, reefcleaners, tbs
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jonasroman
New member
I do not know the strain but for sure it was dino, and it was around 11-12 months ago i had it last. I tried exactly everything, then worked with the theory that it emanate from the sand, and preferably sugarfine dito(not always), so i tested my theory and it worked for me, and for two other aquarist i helped. As in this complicated world i cannot guarantee that it helps everyone of course, just telling my experience and struggling with dino, which over the years are the last 7 years at least. it is very important to take almost every grain out...that mistake have i done, leaving some grains, then it did not work.
Jonas
mathman7728
New member
Cal_str,
where do you get Ostreopsis Ovata?
where do you get Ostreopsis Ovata?
karimwassef
Active member
That's the strain of dino he was infected with.
That is good to hear as I've read all your posts which got me started on adding more diversity to the tank. :beer:
It's been 1.5 weeks since stopping peroxide dosing for me and I am dino free so far. I did 2 weeks of peroxide/2-day complete blackout, no water changes/skimming. After the peroxide I setup chaeto w/light in my sump and added pods, as well as building up my CuC more. Also have microalgae on the way. On top of all that I've been overfeeding and using frozen food, broadcasting coral frenzy, etc. It's weird because my tank has never looked so clean!!
Congrats, that's good to hear, I kept my skimmer off until hair algae started on the back glass, it cleared up soon after restarting the skimmer.
