Dinoflagellates.

[EdenR]

I wondered about that.

Point on the lights out thing. Lights out is not a cure. But it is not pointless either.
First, like you say, lights out drives most dinos to the water column. (Read a thread the other day where pumps off for 30 min drove some dinos to the water column). Nothing makes mine leave the sand. [emoji20]

Secondly, all of the reports of dinos I've seen occurred under reef lighting, therefore -although there are species of dinos that don't need light - we are dealing with species that are light loving.
Yes, they won't automatically die in the dark, they can hunt other things, or just encyst. But darkness slows them down. Which is excellent, if our treatment strategy involves outcompeting them.

I agree, they aren't pointless they are actually a very valuable tool. The only point I'm making is that extended blackouts are pointless. We know blackouts aren't the cure, dinos will come back. The strongest reason to incorporate them into the overall plan of attack is to simply kick the dinos back in order to give competition a chance. And many people have now come back with successful results in using 3 day blackouts followed by dirty and pod/phyto dosing. For those that went longer blackouts, they've reported coral deaths. By killing your livestock you are only feuling your dinos.

The enemy right now isn't just dinos themselves but misinformation and bad advice. @tastyfish seems to like contradicting good advice, i.e. Porkchop's method, karim's UV suggestions, etc with his own terroble advice about blacking out your tank for more than 8 days! That's not helpful especially when infected reefers are already desperately trying to fix their tanks.

 

[karimwassef]

in terms of biofauna... just found another baby sea cucumber (I think).

I've seen some in the dark, but this one was out in full daylight.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/C680F149-7010-4040-9DF7-B18620415C98_zpsy3ylfgvk.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/C680F149-7010-4040-9DF7-B18620415C98_zpsy3ylfgvk.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo C680F149-7010-4040-9DF7-B18620415C98_zpsy3ylfgvk.jpg"/></a>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YMKx2PKqX1I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[karimwassef]

uploaded it again - video gets stuck

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zN3_EC5ZPMc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[DNA]

Scale is difficult to judge, but I see what you mean with those particles and this is similar to what I have.

 

[karimwassef]

that "sea cucumber" was probably ~5mm

 

[tastyfish]

I glanced over it as a misplaced word, at least for ostis where I think we have proved it useless on it's own.
In some cases blackout has reduced the amounts of something, but in this thread we know better.

Know your enemy!

Interesting comments and choice of words, I used a blackout as a key part of a multi-pronged strategy. As stated before, a short blackout only serves to get some of the dinoflagellates into the water column. A longer term one is required to do them any damage in my experience.

As I said a long time ago on this thread, you cannot defeat dinoflagellates with a single parameter change or wonder cure. (As much as anyone would like to).

You must use a multi-pronged and sustained attack to reduce their numbers, reduce the nutrients they feed on and make the environment hostile for them as you simultaneously introduce and support competition.

One theory on the high nitrates is that it is not the fact that Dinoflaggellates won't tolerate high nitrates, but that the presence of nitrates allows the tank to process phosphates much more effectively. In my experience, it's the phosphates which can really boost dino colonies.

I'm still clear of any blooms of the toxic species of dinoflagellates that covered maybe 40% of my rock work and maybe a third of the sand bed.

 

[tastyfish]

I agree, they aren't pointless they are actually a very valuable tool. The only point I'm making is that extended blackouts are pointless. We know blackouts aren't the cure, dinos will come back. The strongest reason to incorporate them into the overall plan of attack is to simply kick the dinos back in order to give competition a chance. And many people have now come back with successful results in using 3 day blackouts followed by dirty and pod/phyto dosing. For those that went longer blackouts, they've reported coral deaths. By killing your livestock you are only feuling your dinos.

The enemy right now isn't just dinos themselves but misinformation and bad advice. @tastyfish seems to like contradicting good advice, i.e. Porkchop's method, karim's UV suggestions, etc with his own terroble advice about blacking out your tank for more than 8 days! That's not helpful especially when infected reefers are already desperately trying to fix their tanks.

Hmmm.. There are a number of ways to respond to that. However, I will bite my tongue as is often required on this forum more than other and repeat what I already stated ( as you perhaps didn't actually read it). My approach is based on what worked for me, in my tank. formed along with other much more experienced reefers than me who have dealt with and failed or dealt with a succeeded against dinoflagellates in multiple tanks. (I missed your qualifications if they exceed everyone else's, so apologies if that is the case).

If you had taken the time to read my posts, (more than perhaps the first line) rather than launch a personal attack, then perhaps you would understand this and also the warnings on the approach.

A blackout alone will not defeat them. I have stated this in almost every single post. It's not for everyone, there will be some casualties. It's a risk you need to weigh up vs the dinoflagellates coming back. But it worked for me and others (who by the way have amazing SPS tanks).


It's easy to dismiss what you don't understand, likewise if you cannot defend a challenge to your thinking, then I'd suggest that you don't understand it yourself.

 

[EdenR]

Hmmm.. There are a number of ways to respond to that. However, I will bite my tongue as is often required on this forum more than other and repeat what I already stated ( as you perhaps didn't actually read it). My approach is based on what worked for me, in my tank. formed along with other much more experienced reefers than me who have dealt with and failed or dealt with a succeeded against dinoflagellates in multiple tanks. (I missed your qualifications if they exceed everyone else's, so apologies if that is the case).

If you had taken the time to read my posts, (more than perhaps the first line) rather than launch a personal attack, then perhaps you would understand this and also the warnings on the approach.

A blackout alone will not defeat them. I have stated this in almost every single post. It's not for everyone, there will be some casualties. It's a risk you need to weigh up vs the dinoflagellates coming back. But it worked for me and others (who by the way have amazing SPS tanks).


It's easy to dismiss what you don't understand, likewise if you cannot defend a challenge to your thinking, then I'd suggest that you don't understand it yourself.

No apologies to me needed. But you should apologize to those that followed your extended blackout period and killed corals because you fail to mention it should only be tried by those running a FOWLR setup or if they really don't care about losing livestock.

As for the rest, well, I'll let all the recent results speak for themselves as to what works and what doesn't. There have been enough of them recently that one only need to look back a few pages.

 

[PorkchopExpress]

extended blackouts really aren't necessary if the point of it is to reduce the amount of dinos in the tank in order to give competing algaes a chance at taking hold which is why i like the method of 3 day blackout followed by increased feedings and dosing pods/phyto (dirty method)...i believe the dirty method, by itself, is sufficient for the majority of dino cases as seen by numerous results but it doesn't appear to work for everyone, unfortunately...but doing a 3 day blackout will simply speed the process up as well as if you add in a UV and skim heavily in conjunction with the 3 day blackout since blackouts seem to force dinos into the water column

extended blackouts, in my opinion, serve no purpose when short ones can produce the same results and put less stress on your already stressed out corals...so i agree with the opinion that more than 4 days lights out is completely unnecessary given that some dinos will encyst...purpose of the blackout isn't to get rid of them, it's to decrease their numbers and give competing algae a chance

that is my 2 cents...as you can see by my photos that i have an sps dominated tank...at 4 days my acros started to STN...that is simply a fact, not an opinion...doing more than 4 days would be lethal to most of my sps as any experienced reefer would know

 

[PorkchopExpress]

...on a more pleasant note I've been dino free for about a year now...I always said I would wait a year before attempting to sell or trade corals and I did in order to not spread the disease around...been trading and selling quite a bit recently and so far so good...before I started I borrowed another microscope and couldn't find a single dino cell...doesn't mean there aren't any there, it just means my system is at a point that it can suppress them...I get green algae on the glass and gha growing in the sump...point is this thing can be beat! find a method that works for you and follow through with it

 

[tastyfish]

No apologies to me needed. But you should apologize to those that followed your extended blackout period and killed corals because you fail to mention it should only be tried by those running a FOWLR setup or if they really don't care about losing livestock.

As for the rest, well, I'll let all the recent results speak for themselves as to what works and what doesn't. There have been enough of them recently that one only need to look back a few pages.

Proving again that you haven't bothered to read my post (bar perhaps the fist few lines). That said, others who had advised me on the approach did it on very mature SPS tanks. I wouldn't expect everything to survive, a loss of a sensitive species is certainly likely, however it entirely depends on the species and your circumstances.

If you go back and actually read the entire method I posted and then your comments, you will perhaps see my point. I'll leave it there as arguing with someone who hasn't actually read something being referred is going to end up going round in circles or the ignore button pressed.

extended blackouts really aren't necessary if the point of it is to reduce the amount of dinos in the tank in order to give competing algaes a chance at taking hold which is why i like the method of 3 day blackout followed by increased feedings and dosing pods/phyto (dirty method)...i believe the dirty method, by itself, is sufficient for the majority of dino cases as seen by numerous results but it doesn't appear to work for everyone, unfortunately...but doing a 3 day blackout will simply speed the process up as well as if you add in a UV and skim heavily in conjunction with the 3 day blackout since blackouts seem to force dinos into the water column

extended blackouts, in my opinion, serve no purpose when short ones can produce the same results and put less stress on your already stressed out corals...so i agree with the opinion that more than 4 days lights out is completely unnecessary given that some dinos will encyst...purpose of the blackout isn't to get rid of them, it's to decrease their numbers and give competing algae a chance

that is my 2 cents...as you can see by my photos that i have an sps dominated tank...at 4 days my acros started to STN...that is simply a fact, not an opinion...doing more than 4 days would be lethal to most of my sps as any experienced reefer would know

Appreciate your view which is actually aligned with mine, *if* the dinos are responding and knocked back enough and you are using other measures to make the environment hostile and competitive for the dinos (see my original post). I was fortunate in that my tank did not have many SPS (mainly LPS), however those SPS I did have were fine after blackout. (This won't be the case, you know how much your corals can take by monitoring them).

I performed my method at the same time as three other people, one did a 3 day blackout along with adding competition, the dinos are back and have killed a large part of his stock. (The worst scenario is that you do any blackout, which weakens the corals and the dinos come back).

The third reefer (much more experienced than I) again performed the blackout (6 days or so I believe) but was not adding bio-diversity until out of blackout switched on MH lights to have a look on day four reported that he could actually see the dinos congregating in the water column within minutes.

The dinos are unfortunately back and spreading even after he is now adding bio diversity and he is contemplating a second blackout, but corals would obviously be in a much weakened state (again, nightmare scenario).

In my case, as my options were open, and I did not want to run the risk of them coming back, I decided to go full hog, although others who had completed this approach with mature SPS tanks had gone longer and were advising me too. (I decided this wasn't for me).

Here's a section of the rock work just prior to total blackout:



Here the same section on day three (actually middle of the night on day two IIRC, day three there wasn't much change so didn't take a photo).



On day 4, the rocks had mostly cleared, however the sand was still snotty and I had snail and conch deaths as they were feeding in the area or on the Dinos.

By day 8, the tank was completely clear and I decided to unwrap (actually I couldn't bare to do it any longer!).



So as you can see, this was my experience and I was glad that I went for a longer period to knock the dinos back further. Otherwise I fear I would still be dealing with them 4/5 months on. It's up to the tank owner to assess what their coral's condition is and if they need to unwrap or they can go on further.

Hope this last post clarifies

 

[taricha]

Thanks for detailed account. Do you know the kind of dinos?
I'd be pretty dang discouraged if my tank looked like that after 3 days of darkness.

 

[karimwassef]

Here's what I observed about dark periods with dinos without UV:

1. They have alternate food sources, so they can hunker down for a while.
2. The cyano they collaborate with suffers quite a bit, so other bacteria get a foothold consuming whatever was fueling the cyano.
3. The pods that eat the dinos can be out more frequently since the fish and other daylight predators can't hunt in the dark.

So while it doesn't starve them, it does reduce their food sources, kill their friends and give free reign to their enemies. In some cases, that might win the war. But they're a plague, so it could take a month of these indirect attacks to kill them off.

So, UV just creates a shortcut to their annihilation.

 

[PorkchopExpress]

my issue is how quickly you are to dismiss and contradict advice from others that most certainly have been proven to work...your case may be the exception but it is not the norm when it comes to the photo sensitivity of dinos...this is your original post stating how just doing a 10 day blackout "WILL kill nearly all of them", in your own words, and that is something i also disagreed with (also partially disagree with UV - the first time it definitely worked and worked on its own without dirty method...second it did not help in my case)...just doing blackouts is not a cure and never has been but thank you for further clarifying your method didn't end at just doing blackouts...multi-pronged approaches are the way to go to beating them quicker than just doing the dirty method which, IMO, is the nail in the coffin

Reef Diva - since you have UV, and a particularly strong one, i would also suggest you do a 3 day blackout...force the dinos into the water column, that will give you the best chances of pushing the dinos into the UV which won't kill them all but will strongly inhibit their ability to reproduce...that is, afterall, the primary function of a UV sterilizer...of course at 400gph on an 80w it should be strong enough to actually kill them

here is a chart of max flow rates for a given UV sterilizer wattage...i would aim for under that number:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=1168

manny - same advice for you...do a 3 day blackout to kick them back a bit...right now your tank is infested with dinos and it'll take a lot more work for the other algaes to take a foothold with the dinos covering your rocks and tank...do the 3 day and then continue feeding heavy whilst dosing zooplankton and phytoplankton...if you're NO3 limited, then yes dose some but otherwise you can get the extra nitrates by feeding heavy and maybe even introducing more fish...if you're PO4 limited, NeoPhos can raise it up...take the skimmer offline

Don't do a 3 day. It wont work. Others who have tried this have even witnessed the dinos coming back together in the water column when the lights come back on.

8 days minimum (I think I did 10) *complete* blackout (including sump, grow lights etc) with the tank covered, then slowly bring in blue-lights only over the next two weeks before introducing white WILL kill off nearly all of them.

Don't do half measures. at 4/5 days, I still had dinos clinging on, they were certainly in the water column past this time.

 

[karimwassef]

guys... we're all on the same team... even if we disagree.

the dinos are the bad guys!

What works for someone may not work for another. There's a lot of different dino species too.

 

[tastyfish]

Thanks for detailed account. Do you know the kind of dinos?
I'd be pretty dang discouraged if my tank looked like that after 3 days of darkness.

Unfortunately no, I didn't go down the route of microscopic identification at the time. In hindsight, it would be interesting and perhaps useful. I did perform the reconstitution test (just to stop myself doubting it).

Here's what I observed about dark periods with dinos without UV:

1. They have alternate food sources, so they can hunker down for a while.
2. The cyano they collaborate with suffers quite a bit, so other bacteria get a foothold consuming whatever was fueling the cyano.
3. The pods that eat the dinos can be out more frequently since the fish and other daylight predators can't hunt in the dark.

So while it doesn't starve them, it does reduce their food sources, kill their friends and give free reign to their enemies. In some cases, that might win the war. But they're a plague, so it could take a month of these indirect attacks to kill them off.

So, UV just creates a shortcut to their annihilation.

Good insight Karim. I was in the middle of an edit to explain my thinking when the edit deadline hit... In my case, I went down the ultra low nutrient route which limited food sources for the dinos. My reason for not having UV on was as I wanted to foster as much diversity as possible. With the scientific research papers out there stating the limited effect of UV on some species of dinoflagellates, the downsides outweighed potential upsides in that I wanted to foster a significant increase in microscopic life whilst the dino population reduced.

my issue is how quickly you are to dismiss and contradict advice from others that most certainly have been proven to work...your case may be the exception but it is not the norm when it comes to the photo sensitivity of dinos...this is your original post stating how just doing a 10 day blackout "WILL kill nearly all of them", in your own words, and that is something i also disagreed with (also partially disagree with UV - the first time it definitely worked and worked on its own without dirty method...second it did not help in my case)...just doing blackouts is not a cure and never has been but thank you for further clarifying your method didn't end at just doing blackouts...multi-pronged approaches are the way to go to beating them quicker than just doing the dirty method which, IMO, is the nail in the coffin

We're actually in complete agreement, I think it would be worth reading my *original posts again* as I've referred to them several times. My frustration is bourne out of the number of people who think that a blackout alone (or a short 3 day one) will work. My tongue in cheek retort back is that you have already dismissed that a blackout of any longer than 3 days is needed (despite photographic evidence and the fact that others have had major issues).

To be clear, once again though, I am in no way suggesting that ANY single method will work. The complete opposite. It is a multi-pronged attack, not using a wonder additive, or blackout etc.

Here's a quote from earlier in the thread in response to a blackout of 3 days which didn't have the desired effect for the member.

Sorry to hear this, when I suffered from them, I spoke with 15 or so other reefers who had experienced Dinos. Pretty much everyone had tried a short (3 day) blackout and almost in every case, they came back.

This is what mine looked like (a small sample of what was in the tank):

After speaking with some very helpful (and much more experienced reefers than me), I decided to employ a multi-pronged strategy to defeat them (this was performed in a relatively new tank, with only a few SPS frags, but has been used in very mature SPS systems) This consisted of the following:

1: Remove:
- Siphon to *waste* all the dinoflagellate mass I could with as little as possible water change (replacement water used TMC Pro Reef synthetic salt to ensure no organics) Do NOT try to pass through a filter sock or floss, they will pass through and re-form.

2: Create a hostile environment:

- 8+ Day Total blackout (sump and tank wrapped in black plastic) followed by Blue-only lighting for 5 days before introducing whites gradually (some advised longer and had done so with very mature SPS tanks)

- Maintain very low phosphate and Nitrate (Double Rowa amount, changing every 3/4 days)

- Double carbon media, replacing every 4 days

- Raise pH using Air stone to maintain 8.2+

- Wet Skim and clean it constantly - you need the skimmer at peak efficiency to remove dinos in the water column

3: Outcompete:
Create nutrient competition with good profile of microfauna/flora (Initial 10 x dose of FM Ultra-Bio, followed by daily top-ups of normal dose with UltraBak

Remember: Siphon Dead/Dying Dinoflaggelates to waste! NEVER through a filter sock.

The reason for removal of as much of the dinoflagellate mass as possible prior to blackout and during is two fold: Firstly, they will break down and provide more free nutrients (you are trying to reduce this). Secondly, even if they are not toxic when growing in the tank (as mine were not), they can release toxins when dying off. I ost two conches who started to feed on an area of dying dinoflagellates on the sand.

The good news is that 12+ weeks later, and they have not returned and the tank is (as far as I can tell) free of them.

A word on this approach, however - it is not for the faint hearted. You need to keep your head and press ahead with the blackout. Fortunately for me, I did not have a big stock of SPS. (Hammerheads, Acan, soft corals and LPS were fine) however those who helped had very mature SPS tanks and had gone through similar or longer blackouts.

However in my case, it did trigger a massive issue with the fish stock. As they were in the dark, they retreated to the rock and did not feed. This lowered their immune system and allowed a protozoan infection (probably Crytpocaryon) to take hold (I believe this came into the system on some macroalgae from another reefer previously).

In order to reduce the impact on fish immune systems, I would feed fortified food and use appetite stimulator (such as Garlic) to try to ensure the fish do feed and get plenty of vitamins & minerals when they do.

So this method is certainly effective, and much more so than miracle in a bottle chemicals, however some care needs to be taken along with perseverance.

Good Luck, it's beatable.

I know that's a lot of info to read (it's the condensed version BTW), but it is worth reading past the first few lines which perhaps some people have not done.

guys... we're all on the same team... even if we disagree.

the dinos are the bad guys!

What works for someone may not work for another. There's a lot of different dino species too.

Absolutely, there are 1600 species known to date, some are extremely beneficial. I believe no tank has zero dinoflagellates, but they are kept in check by a balanced ecosystem. Every environment in every tank is different also.

On my final note, I'm surprised TBH by some of the responses in this thread if anyone voices a different opinion to their own thinking (actually in some cases it's not even their own thinking) - sadly I've found this to more prevalent on RC compared to other forums.

So I will take this moment to unsubscribe from the thread and leave you guys to it. I don't want this to read as a flounce, the genuine aim is to help rather than argue.

Good luck with the fight, it's winnable!

 

[taricha]

I'll mention again.

If anyone has or knows of someone who has a toxic dino species (caused snail deaths or other tank deaths) I'd love to pay shipping to get my hands on them. PM me for details.

 

[mannyhernz]

...on a more pleasant note I've been dino free for about a year now...I always said I would wait a year before attempting to sell or trade corals and I did in order to not spread the disease around...been trading and selling quite a bit recently and so far so good...before I started I borrowed another microscope and couldn't find a single dino cell...doesn't mean there aren't any there, it just means my system is at a point that it can suppress them...I get green algae on the glass and gha growing in the sump...point is this thing can be beat! find a method that works for you and follow through with it

Hey porkchop..i have also been dino free for over a month! Been doing routine water changes but cant seem to get the gha under control..turbos are eating it up but it doesnt seem to dissipate. What are your methods for controlling the gha after dinos? Thanks for the tips btw..lights out+dirty method definitely did my dinos in.

 

[karimwassef]

Get an ATS!!

 

[reefcentral123]

so far so good but I still haven't done a water change. will do so this week.