Dinoflagellates.
- Thread starter DNA
- Start date
karimwassef
Active member
Dinos are a function of the tank. If your tank has a healthy diverse biofauna, dinos will die out.
I don't know if there's a removal mechanism that won't just drive them to encyst. Maybe a hydrogen peroxide dip?
I couldn't keep my N and P simultaneously elevated with just throwing food in the tank. I had to resort to dosing N and P directly.
Started slow, but currently dosing 10ppm nitrate and 0.20ppm phosphate daily. Still don't grow GHA, but at least I get lots of chaeto and caulerpa growth.
Disclaimer: this isn't a recommendation, it's just what I'm doing. I have no sps I care about, and I'm also getting cyano growth, and adding N and/or P will NOT slow down dino growth at first. Only after considerable algae etc is present do the dinos seem to slow down.
Everyone's first reaction to dirty method is "it's not working".
DNA
New member
I may have found what is keeping my calcium low.
The repeated siphoning of the dinos has caused the tank to be hazy at times.
With a bright flashlight I found a huge number of nearly invisible white dots on the glass in my overflow.
Looking at them closer revealed a spherical white body with white hairs that sway in the current.
They all need a small personal space which was what drew my attention to them.
Being white they have to be calcium based and they don't need light so they can grow anywhere.
I switched off all the pumps and blasted the rocks and then looked at he debris in the water column.
At least 80% was at the same less than 100 micron size as those little white furballs alive in the overflow.
Their highly reflective bodies can be seen with the naked eye in a bright light against a dark background.
A calcareous skeleton that is less than 100 micron could be coccolithophores, but I've not found a match yet.
I'm already connecting the dots and of course I've got brilliant ideas now on my next move.
The repeated siphoning of the dinos has caused the tank to be hazy at times.
With a bright flashlight I found a huge number of nearly invisible white dots on the glass in my overflow.
Looking at them closer revealed a spherical white body with white hairs that sway in the current.
They all need a small personal space which was what drew my attention to them.
Being white they have to be calcium based and they don't need light so they can grow anywhere.
I switched off all the pumps and blasted the rocks and then looked at he debris in the water column.
At least 80% was at the same less than 100 micron size as those little white furballs alive in the overflow.
Their highly reflective bodies can be seen with the naked eye in a bright light against a dark background.
A calcareous skeleton that is less than 100 micron could be coccolithophores, but I've not found a match yet.
I'm already connecting the dots and of course I've got brilliant ideas now on my next move.
Agreed, throwing food into the tank is nothing, it's like a breakfast for dynos. I am dosing KNO3 already, and thanks for confirming the dose. I have SPS, but will give 10ppm a go anyway.
What do you do se for Phosphates? Can you point me in the right direction for some reading materials? Thanks!!!
DNA
New member
After looking through the coccolithophores images available on the web for a while I get it why I didn't find a match.
Most of them are of dead ones and the the hair like feature has fallen off, but can often be seen laying around.
Below you can see coccoliths (armor plates ) with the "hair" still attached.
I have to say this has begun to look convincing.
Edit: I've cleverly set the size of my possible coccolithophore at slightly less than 50 microns for the core.
Most of them are of dead ones and the the hair like feature has fallen off, but can often be seen laying around.
Below you can see coccoliths (armor plates ) with the "hair" still attached.
I have to say this has begun to look convincing.
Edit: I've cleverly set the size of my possible coccolithophore at slightly less than 50 microns for the core.
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saw the beginnings of dino's in my tank. immediately shut the lights off and covered the tank. That night, I dosed 12ml peroxide. The next morning, I dosed 12ml peroxide. Have done this for 5 straight days. The fuzz on the rocks is disappearing and almost completely gone. Will continue to attack it this way for another 3-5 days.
Will do a 15g water change this week sometime, but so far the lights out and peroxide has done a pretty good job of clearing off the rocks. I have been turning the light on for 2 or so hours so the anemone gets some light.
My last test was 2ppm NO3 and 0ppm Phosphates. It's the first time in a few months I've gotten a NO3 reading, so I'm slowly killing off the organisms that were using the nutrients for food.
At least I think...whether that's accurate or not, I can't say, but it sounds good and makes sense to me
Will do a 15g water change this week sometime, but so far the lights out and peroxide has done a pretty good job of clearing off the rocks. I have been turning the light on for 2 or so hours so the anemone gets some light.
My last test was 2ppm NO3 and 0ppm Phosphates. It's the first time in a few months I've gotten a NO3 reading, so I'm slowly killing off the organisms that were using the nutrients for food.
At least I think...whether that's accurate or not, I can't say, but it sounds good and makes sense to me
joshky
Acros & Wrasses
I tried multiple tactics to rid my tank of dinos and only just recently feel like I won the battle. It was dramatic and I doubt many would do this, but I chose to get rid of my old rock and 75% of my old sand and replaced it with TBS 2.1 live rock and live sand from the Gulf. The thing that stood out to me in all of this was biodiversity is a key component to not having issues with dinos, since the switch on 2-27-16 I haven't had another issue with dinos and I know it's still in my system, the point wasn't to "remove" it, but to make it hard for it to take over. Since the switch my SPS have already started recovering from pretty bad STN and browning out, so I'm really encouraged right now and I hope that I don't see them again.
FWIW the 30g package I chose from TBS was similar in price ($550~ after air freight cost) to the UV sterilizers I was looking at to rid my tank of dinos, this rock is a lot more interesting than another piece of equipment to clutter my sump area.
FWIW the 30g package I chose from TBS was similar in price ($550~ after air freight cost) to the UV sterilizers I was looking at to rid my tank of dinos, this rock is a lot more interesting than another piece of equipment to clutter my sump area.
karimwassef
Active member
I got UV and fresh live rock. In my case, I got a $150 UV and $150 live rock. It saved my 660gal.
I wouldn't say this is true or else it wouldn't have worked for me and many others.
The easiest way would be to throw a upflow scrubber in the back area. Or jimmy rig a water fall scrubber with acrylic in the middle chamber.
Maybe, If the "biofauna" is able to out compete the dinos for excess available nutrients in the water. And by biofauna I am assuming you are referring to the autotrophs of the tank. More animals would only potentially make more nutrients in the water not less.
Light out will kill the organisms that were eating the excess nutrients but it will also release all of those nutrients back into the tank, allowing another dino bloom to take place in the near future. Dinos grow very fast and are quick to get the first grab at the nutrients in the water.
here's what I would recommend:
either Seachem flourish - phosphorus. It's derived from potassium phosphate.
or find a high P fish food, one that has fish meal as the first several ingredients.
what I actually did:
I used a miracle grow 4-12-4 (N-P-K) derived from ammonium phosphate, potassium phosphate and urea, nothing else.
Then I read a suggestion in the macroalgae forum that the simultaneous presence of nitrate, phosphate, and ammonia can cause cyano and although I was very pleased with macro growth, the cyano growth is unacceptable.
So to get away from ammonia & urea I tried changing to an industrial cleaner from home depot: Trisodium Phosphate (TSP)-
It's 80% trisodium phosphate dodecahydrate, and 20% sodium sesquicarbonate. 6% phosphorus by mass. I ran the numbers based on amounts I intended to add, and although my chem knowledge is pretty limited, there was nothing in there that put up red flags for me. My KH was a little low anyway, and I could stand for my pH to rise a little.
It hasn't helped with the cyano growth, and my halimeda seems to be dying back, so I'm probably going to pull the plug on the TSP.
I read bunch of stuff in the macro forum, they do a lot of work with controlling nutrients other than with fish food.
What do you guys think? Dyno immigration program or dyno breeding program?
I noticed for a while that if I have something porous in the tank right in the flow, dynos love to attach to it. So I thought of trying to add a bigger surface area, and once a day wash it in tap to kill them. Need advice, will this help lower the number of dynos in the overall system so other methods are more effective or am I creating more ares for them to grow on. I did notice more dynos on the net and less on sand/rock.
I noticed for a while that if I have something porous in the tank right in the flow, dynos love to attach to it. So I thought of trying to add a bigger surface area, and once a day wash it in tap to kill them. Need advice, will this help lower the number of dynos in the overall system so other methods are more effective or am I creating more ares for them to grow on. I did notice more dynos on the net and less on sand/rock.
Thanks taricha. I picked up Aquavitro Activate, same concept as flourish and will give it a go in small doses first.
karimwassef
Active member
A dino scrubber? Hmmm maybe.
karimwassef
Active member
I didn't say ATS doesn't work. I said it's usually not enough. This isn't theory- it's based on the experiences in this thread. And yes - dinos can and have killed ATSs.
Biofauna is competition, as well as predatory. The reason dinos take over in the first place is because of artificial conditions created in our tanks due to the extinction of competitors and predators. There's usually a critical event that destroys the natural state and sets up a stage for dinos.
The dinos then "terraform" or "mariform" the water chemistry so they stay on top of the food chain. The slow flow UV with darkness and skimming shrinks their numbers and exports their waste and chemicals, so the tank has a foothold on a "natural" state. Then the live rock brings in competition and predation that kicks them in the proverbial teeth!
But dinos never go away. They're always waiting for that unnatural state to come back so they can wreck the environment again.
I never said to use an ATS alone... I'm saying that the blackout method will kill some of the dinos (not all) and will release nutrients back into the water which a skimmer would not be able to touch.
In my experience anything that releases nutrients back into the water is a bad way to go about it... sorry but I think uv sterilizer would fall under this category too because of the die off it would create. The unnatural state that dinos love would easily be created by a big die off.
Dinos usually are the first to populate a new or freshly cleaned scrubber screen. They also like low lit areas so if your light isn't powerful enough they will probably out compete hair algae.
Fauna means animals and animals can't process every last bit of the nutrients they take in. I think you mean flora which is plant life and they can out-compete dinos if there numbers are great enough.
karimwassef
Active member
pods and ciliates are predators
algae and phyto are competitors
UV kills dinos. Their bodies become waste organics.
skimmers remove organics - that's the waste bodies before they decompose into inorganics
inorganics can be exported via a GFO, chaeto or an ATS
I choose to use all weapons in my arsenal. The first assault is UV. The second is skimming. The third is ATS.
It's like saying "I'll only use ground troops.. air troops are not worth it.."
There are many on here who have used slow flow UV successfully. Your experience may be different. We can learn from that. But I wouldn't discount information gained from others.
When you used UV, was it fast flow or slow flow?
algae and phyto are competitors
UV kills dinos. Their bodies become waste organics.
skimmers remove organics - that's the waste bodies before they decompose into inorganics
inorganics can be exported via a GFO, chaeto or an ATS
I choose to use all weapons in my arsenal. The first assault is UV. The second is skimming. The third is ATS.
It's like saying "I'll only use ground troops.. air troops are not worth it.."
There are many on here who have used slow flow UV successfully. Your experience may be different. We can learn from that. But I wouldn't discount information gained from others.
When you used UV, was it fast flow or slow flow?
DNA said:
From what you describe, foraminifera may be better candidates than cocos. Take a look at the following and see what you think...
Introduction to the Foraminifera
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/foram/foramintro.html
The Hooper Virtual Natural History Museum
https://uccforams.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/biology/
Modern foraminifera: biological and ecological basics
http://www.geo.tu-freiberg.de/oberseminar/os05_06/sindy_becker.pdf
Note the little hairs radiating from the forams in a couple of the micrographs -- they're clearly visible in the first image on the Wikipedia page for forams. That seems to track with your description and would explain why they each have their own little space. There are on the order of 4000 species of forams, 99% of which are benthic, interestingly. IIRC, you described finding tiny shells and rods in the calcareous debris you previously reported, both of which are shapes made by benthic forams.
BTW, some pink sand beaches are known to get their color from foram shells. I can't help but wonder if there's a connection to this...
--
jweist said:
And there's this, as well...
To reiterate, this is what worked for yeldarbj...
It seems yeldarbj may have invented the dirty method!
I'm not saying to only use an ATS, so your analogies don't make sense. I am saying that I think it's a big part of the equation.
I'm also not denying the fact that UV could kill dinos at a slow enough flow. I don't know if my UV was slow enough to kill the dinos but it definitely killed other things releasing their nutrients back into the water. This large flux of nutrients slows down the scrubber and can give the dinos a chance to get a foot hold in the tank again. Same thing would apply to anything that creates die off; blackout, peroxide, UV, etc.
Macros will usually get smothered by dinos too easily to be effective at competing against them. And if there is not a big enough area for them to grow out it won't make much of a dent on the nutrient levels anyway.
I already said that dinos can out-compete GHA if the light is weak. Yeldarbj probably created a situation where he has a lot of algae everywhere in his tank including the scrubber that are competing with the dinos and keeping them in check. If he left his scrubber going for over a month at a time and it still never grew GHA then his light was weak. Not to mention the die off that would happen underneath the top layers (because of his lack of cleaning), increasing the food for the dinos and decreasing competition. It's hard to tell from the information provided but I'm guessing that if he scrapped off the top layer of dinos there would be green underneath... this and the algae he has in the tank are what's controlling the dinos. Dinos need N & P to live... that's a fact. They are also very quick to grow and eat these nutrients. If there is nothing competing with them for the available nutrients the dinos will win every time. If the GHA is doing a better job than dinos at sucking up the nutrients in the water then you have a healthy tank. Purposefully trying to increase the nutrients in the water is going to make to dinos grow like crazy until GHA or similar starts to grow to a point where they out compete the dinos for nutrients and space.
