Dinoflagellates.

[karimwassef]

If you kill dinos, they create waste that must be exported ... Agree

Your view states that the clean method and the dirty method both don't work. The evidence from the many posts here is that they both actually do work.

For a long time, the conventional method was to reduce N and P... It didn't work. Some have exited the hobby using that approach.

It's great that just adding live rock worked for you, but it's an isolated datapoint. Even in the clean method with slow flow UV, you need to feed the algae to compete with dinos. You just need to export enough dinos to offset the balance and win the war.

 

[jweist]

Your view states that the clean method and the dirty method both don't work. The evidence from the many posts here is that they both actually do work.

What? No, my view is that competition is key. In any case of dinos they are the first to populate an area because of the quick rate they can grow, especially in low nutrient environments without sufficient competition. Now if you drop an A bomb on the tank and kill everything, good and bad, you will loose a lot of the things that were trying to keep the tank free of dinos as well as the dinos themselves. In this scenario the dinos have the upper hand after the die off because of their fast assimilation rate. The reason an ATS is necessary is because it utilizes light, flow, and attachment to its full potential. This is needed to be able to suck up the little amount of nutrients in the system that the dinos are feeding off of. I think the dirty method could work because it would increase competition in the system, basically creating a weak scrubber in the display. I wouldn't recommend doing it this way... but I'm not saying it doesn't work.

For a long time, the conventional method was to reduce N and P... It didn't work. Some have exited the hobby using that approach.

I used to think if my N & P are testing zero then how are these things growing? Well if there are dinos growing in your tank then there are nutrients in the system and the dinos are eating it up fast. Faster than the competition (what ever that maybe).

It's great that just adding live rock worked for you, but it's an isolated datapoint.

I never added new live rock to my tank. All I did was increase competition within the tank. In fact I wouldn't recommend any changes to the live rock, even rearranging it. Putting new live rock in would cause die off and increase nutrients.

Even in the clean method with slow flow UV, you need to feed the algae to compete with dinos.

If your feeding the tank at all then there are new nutrients being delivered to the tank and if dinos are growing that's enough for algae.

You just need to export enough dinos to offset the balance and win the war.

Exporting dinos is great because your getting rid of nutrients from the system, while keeping the completion in the tank. Killing things will reintroduce their nutrients back into the tank. There's no way your skimmer is pulling all the dying organics out before they turn into inorganics.

 

[joshky]

I got UV and fresh live rock. In my case, I got a $150 UV and $150 live rock. It saved my 660gal.

Surprised you were able to do it so cheaply for a 660g system, but that's awesome. I absolutely love the decision I made and my corals couldn't be better off right now, so in the end I can't put a price on that.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread, dinos has to be one of the worst things you can battle in this hobby and will take over when you least expect it.

 

[DNA]

From what you describe, foraminifera may be better candidates than cocos.

You may be right here, but it would be at the extreme small end for foraminifera that start at 50 microns.

In my last experiment I described how low calcium and alkalinity led to the demise of nearly all my dinos.
In this one I siphon at least half of the dinos twice a week and notice hazy water column at times and calcareous critters.
These are hints to what could be going on with the increase in dinos after water changes that many have reported.

Manual removal is surely not going to rid you of dinos, but the there is a population explosion going on right now with the pods and various micro critters.

 

[Billybatz9]

Surprised you were able to do it so cheaply for a 660g system, but that's awesome. I absolutely love the decision I made and my corals couldn't be better off right now, so in the end I can't put a price on that.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread, dinos has to be one of the worst things you can battle in this hobby and will take over when you least expect it.

What did you do?

 

[nvladik]

Quick update on the dyno scrubber, if you are just looking to lower your numbers before hitting them with UV, Dirty Method, or anything else, scrubber is working. After 2 days, it was full of dynos, and I barely see any on Rock, Sand, etc.

 

[joshky]

What did you do?

I posted what I had done a few posts up. You can read/see more in my tank thread in my signature.

I tried multiple tactics to rid my tank of dinos and only just recently feel like I won the battle. It was dramatic and I doubt many would do this, but I chose to get rid of my old rock and 75% of my old sand and replaced it with TBS 2.1 live rock and live sand from the Gulf. The thing that stood out to me in all of this was biodiversity is a key component to not having issues with dinos, since the switch on 2-27-16 I haven't had another issue with dinos and I know it's still in my system, the point wasn't to "remove" it, but to make it hard for it to take over. Since the switch my SPS have already started recovering from pretty bad STN and browning out, so I'm really encouraged right now and I hope that I don't see them again.

FWIW the 30g package I chose from TBS was similar in price ($550~ after air freight cost) to the UV sterilizers I was looking at to rid my tank of dinos, this rock is a lot more interesting than another piece of equipment to clutter my sump area.

 

[karimwassef]

There's no way your skimmer is pulling all the dying organics out before they turn into inorganics.

Here's my skimmer

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/BBC3548B-3CF2-44DF-9B5C-65B388EAFB33_zpshpfnzb51.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/BBC3548B-3CF2-44DF-9B5C-65B388EAFB33_zpshpfnzb51.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo BBC3548B-3CF2-44DF-9B5C-65B388EAFB33_zpshpfnzb51.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/320F8392-4BE8-4695-B1E9-F0C67309ABDC_zpstpgbvfnu.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/320F8392-4BE8-4695-B1E9-F0C67309ABDC_zpstpgbvfnu.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 320F8392-4BE8-4695-B1E9-F0C67309ABDC_zpstpgbvfnu.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/FC19F6E3-4EDC-4186-9971-A607076A04BE_zpsfppdvfbp.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/FC19F6E3-4EDC-4186-9971-A607076A04BE_zpsfppdvfbp.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo FC19F6E3-4EDC-4186-9971-A607076A04BE_zpsfppdvfbp.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CD09A857-D198-4BC6-A212-DCE6FF7F198F_zpslfofjvbp.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CD09A857-D198-4BC6-A212-DCE6FF7F198F_zpslfofjvbp.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CD09A857-D198-4BC6-A212-DCE6FF7F198F_zpslfofjvbp.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/24ACB13F-AE35-48B7-B7EF-DF3FDDA522F2_zpsq9ejpdia.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/24ACB13F-AE35-48B7-B7EF-DF3FDDA522F2_zpsq9ejpdia.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 24ACB13F-AE35-48B7-B7EF-DF3FDDA522F2_zpsq9ejpdia.jpg"/></a>

daily output is 2qts of liquid waste

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1348F12E-96C0-4A4D-AEAF-7470DABE230B_zpsajua2ixa.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1348F12E-96C0-4A4D-AEAF-7470DABE230B_zpsajua2ixa.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1348F12E-96C0-4A4D-AEAF-7470DABE230B_zpsajua2ixa.jpg"/></a>

It's a dual Beckett injected 12' tall skimmer.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/26F0C07C-EF53-4952-9591-5200D91049BE_zps5huozlyp.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/26F0C07C-EF53-4952-9591-5200D91049BE_zps5huozlyp.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 26F0C07C-EF53-4952-9591-5200D91049BE_zps5huozlyp.jpg"/></a>

The solid waste builds up every month. I don't weight it (maybe I should), but a picture is worth 1000 words:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/8A2B6C5D-5712-4ED0-A985-525A255EB4EE_zpsu84ucdix.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/8A2B6C5D-5712-4ED0-A985-525A255EB4EE_zpsu84ucdix.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 8A2B6C5D-5712-4ED0-A985-525A255EB4EE_zpsu84ucdix.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/6EBCFDD3-BDA3-4427-82FF-ED75EC5A57D2_zpssax3wime.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/6EBCFDD3-BDA3-4427-82FF-ED75EC5A57D2_zpssax3wime.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 6EBCFDD3-BDA3-4427-82FF-ED75EC5A57D2_zpssax3wime.jpg"/></a>

It may be a DIY, but it's the best skimmer I've seen.

Always surprised at opinions without seeing it

 

[karimwassef]

I also employ a 6' ATS scrubber that generates about 250g every two weeks

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 0E03A93D-1937-49DA-8B77-A0FDD9A9F8E0_zps1elfostg.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo FF69B7C4-A269-4105-A178-35F8491AFDD1_zpsjyjpo6wb.jpg"/></a>

 

[karimwassef]

I think it's safe to say - I get "export"...

I feed massive quantities of food a day too. I see nutrients as fuel for my machine.

I also consume about a Kg of Kalkwasser powder a month... Just to avoid any assumptions

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/36F7CA67-A057-463C-8FC6-D0E00D9E235B_zpsejmz65a0.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/36F7CA67-A057-463C-8FC6-D0E00D9E235B_zpsejmz65a0.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 36F7CA67-A057-463C-8FC6-D0E00D9E235B_zpsejmz65a0.jpg"/></a>

 

[karimwassef]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dmvs2wrmPro" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ydYQXfrdlJU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UdAnkP8qDqw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/8YovhOlNYFI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[jason2459]

I think there's a Trump like joke in there somewhere... :bigeyes:

 

[karimwassef]

What? The I get "export" bit?

I said EXport, not DEport.

 

[jweist]

Here's my skimmer
daily output is 2qts of liquid waste
The solid waste builds up every month. I don't weight it (maybe I should), but a picture is worth 1000 words:
It may be a DIY, but it's the best skimmer I've seen.
Always surprised at opinions without seeing it

That's a cool DIY skimmer and I'm sure it works well. But the fact that there is algae growing on the screen means the skimmer is not grabbing all organics before they break down into inorganics.
Lack of biodiversity at the bottom of the food change is what allows dinos to flourish. This happens much easier at low nutrient levels because the competition in the tank is almost nonexistent. Algae will not grow (in the display) at these low nutrient levels without maximizing light, flow and attachment with an ATS.

 

[karimwassef]

back when I had dinos, I wasn't feeding as much... or exporting as much.

In fact, my big extinction event was using LaCl. It crashed my phosphates so quickly that all algae melted in 24hrs and gave dinos a foothold.

I hit them with everything. First UV, then wet skimming + carbon + new chaeto + new live rock + blackout + thousands of pods + phyto. Then I cranked up my feeding and installed an ATS...

Now it's all going full blast. I still run UV at night... and in case you think that's killing my biodiversity - look at my videos. As long as I feed phyto and turn off my skimmer at night, my plankton base stays thick and the dino s are non-existent.

 

[koral_lover]

joining this party.

my tank is 8 months old - a month after stocking several sps, dinos have hit.

I am not sure the reason. My theory is that I overdosed nitrate, which drove my phosphate down to nothing, then dinos got a foot hold.

I am grateful this thread exists. I have done a black out 2 weeks ago, they all melted, but slowly came back. I could keep them at bay if I fed minimally and skimmed hard, but my sps were suffering and pale. I realize I can't go on like this.

I am going to try the dirty method and see if I can get some other algaes or cyano growing.

Started three days ago. It is painful to watch - I am literally dumping in the food morning and night and the dinos have gone crazy in terms of growth. It seems I need to let them get worse before I see other algaes popping up.

I do notice a lot more pod action on the glass.

What is really strange - ever since I got dinos, I can't get any green film or brown dusting on the glass - even after several days...

Will update anyone with my results - Really depressed, my sps are pale or brown, no growth, no 2 part consumption, and fish seem stressed. I hope my tank comes through.

Feeding 2 cubes of PE mysis, dose of Fuel, 1 flake feeding, and 1 cube of cyclopeeze at night. Skimmer is now off. Just running chaeto - lit 24/7 in sump.

 

[karimwassef]

why ?

You're ok taking the risk killing your SPS when a slow flow UV and wet skimming in blackout will give you the position to reset your tank's chemistry? then add phyto and a little food to establish your algae and you can change the vector of life in the tank.

I understand wanting to avoid paying $70 for a 36W UV sterilizer if you just have a couple of fish or some softies or LPS... but seeing SPS die for that little seems ..............

just my clearly biased opinion and earnest desire to help.

 

[jweist]

back when I had dinos, I wasn't feeding as much... or exporting as much.

Exporting what skimmate? That would make sense since it has less food to pull out.

I hit them with everything. First UV, then wet skimming + carbon + new chaeto + new live rock + blackout + thousands of pods + phyto. Then I cranked up my feeding and installed an ATS...
Now it's all going full blast. I still run UV at night... and in case you think that's killing my biodiversity - look at my videos. As long as I feed phyto and turn off my skimmer at night, my plankton base stays thick and the dino s are non-existent.

I don't want to critique your system plus you don't have dinos in your tank so why would I... I will say though that if your adding live phyto then every night when your UV comes on it would be killing it and creating more food for pods. So instead of using the phyto to suck up inorganics, you're using it more as a food source (fine either way).
When you tell me your story I don't see it the same way as you... what I see is that you tried a bunch of different approaches that were not working so you added an ATS and now you have no dinos.

I could keep them at bay if I fed minimally and skimmed hard, but my sps were suffering and pale. I realize I can't go on like this.

Dinos aren't growing as much because there is less nutrients in the water but on the other hand your corals are suffering from lack of food. So by skimming hard your taking out almost all the corals food but leaving the inorganics that the dinos can still eat up.

I do notice a lot more pod action on the glass.

There's more food in the water for pods... they don't care if they're eating dinos, phyto, or GHA... in any case their population is limited by available food.

What is really strange - ever since I got dinos, I can't get any green film or brown dusting on the glass - even after several days...

That's because the dinos are eating up the inorganics before the algae on the glass has a chance to.

You're ok taking the risk killing your SPS when a slow flow UV and wet skimming in blackout will give you the position to reset your tank's chemistry? then add phyto and a little food to establish your algae and you can change the vector of life in the tank.
I understand wanting to avoid paying $70 for a 36W UV sterilizer if you just have a couple of fish or some softies or LPS... but seeing SPS die for that little seems ..............just my clearly biased opinion and earnest desire to help.

See this is what is getting to me... you have an ATS and no dinos but every time you give advise you leave this giant detail out. I appreciate you giving help it's just your advise of getting a UV sterilizer as the main fix is not a good solution. First of all it's not proven at all that the UV can eliminate dinos to a point where other algae can take over. Second it's expensive... $70 minimum where as an ATS could could cost less than 20 bucks. And third is that between UV, skimming, and blackouts there is nothing here to control/export the nutrients that will be released from the die off caused by UV and blackouts. This would only perpetuate the dinos. I can also say that loosing my corals especially the sps is not OK with me. I would spend a lot of money for this not to happen... but if there is a big possibility this is going to happen anyway then what would be the point of spending money on a UV sterilizer or anything else for that matter.

 

[taricha]

I am not sure the reason. My theory is that I overdosed nitrate, which drove my phosphate down to nothing, then dinos got a foot hold.

I have done a black out 2 weeks ago, they all melted, but slowly came back.

I am going to try the dirty method and see if I can get some other algaes or cyano...

What is really strange - ever since I got dinos, I can't get any green film or brown dusting on the glass - even after several days...

Lots of the above resonates with my experience. I dosed nitrates to drop my P, killed off my GHA and poof....dinos.

Blackouts and dino-cidal chemicals...
So you remove dinos. Great. What did you replace them with?
I think we need this as a slogan, to remove dinos you must first decide what to replace them with. We need something catchy in the form of a bumper sticker or kung fu proverb.
"In dinos, there is no remove. There is only replace." Hopefully someone else can do better.

Cyano is a no no. Dinos and cyano are BFFs and joined at the hip. It's not a candidate for replacing dinos.

Just throwing food in the tank does not automatically ensure you'll have elevated N and P. Quite often they are out of balance and one is elevated while the other is limiting factor for growth. Test and adjust.

 

[jweist]

great answer. :thumbsup: