Dinoflagellates.

[DDon]

Seeking some advice in my battle with/recovery from dinos.

Tank is a 240g mixed reef (SPS dominant) and have been battling dinos since January. I had been fighting cyano for some time then noticed quite a few across with STN from base and from tips at which time a began to suspect dinos. At this point I started using peroxide ramping up to 1ml/gal to battle the suspected dinos and this seems to be when they really became apparent. Did a 3 days lights out but not a complete blackout with heavy siphoning and blowing of rocks while continuing peroxide. This seemed to knock them back quite a bit and stated seeing good growth on corals again but slowly dinos started showing in greater numbers again. Tried another 3 day lights out with even greater physical removal and no water changes. Also, continued peroxide dosing but at 1ml/gal twice a day. Again this knocked them back and what I saw remaining I was doing spot treatments with peroxide. Also stopped adding vinegar to my kalk as I was afraid this might be fueling dinos.
At this point I went on a 10 day trip overseas and left the tank in the care of my oldest daughter. She knows the basics maintenance but nothing more. While on my trip I got some reports from my son (who just loves to give me bad news) that some of my corals were dying. When I returned home it was soo much worse than I could have imagined. Tank was loaded with dinos and the coral losses were pretty severe with the majority of SPS (including across, montis, stylos, birds nests etc.) impacted. Not all were dead but most were damaged. LPS were also impacted with loss of a chalice and mac o'lantern lepto looking very rough.
I have to say at this point I was so discouraged I considered tearing the tank down and starting over or just taking a sledgehammer to the tank and be done with it.

Anyways, at this point I decided to do 5 day blackout, so turned off lights and covered tank in black plastic. Started with peroxide treatment again at a dose of about 1.5ml/gal twice a day, thorough cleaning of the system to remove as many dinos as possible and including a full cleaning of the sump. Also did 3 40 gal water changes in a week and fresh carbon (twice) and fresh GFO.
Today is the first day that lights are back on. Just running an actinic and blue bulb (T5) and my kessils on at 15% intensity and color at 10% for 5 hours.
Tank looks great right now, well not seeing any dinos at least. Still pulling dead corals out and will need to do some pretty hard trimming on others to see if they might survive.
Going forward I am not sure what to do. Is the lighting intensity and duration I started at fine or would you start slower and for how long? Also seeing so much mixed info on low nutrients or slightly higher? Continue with regular water changes or stop again since lights are back on? Start vinegar dosing in my kalk again or not?
Before all this started tank looked the best it ever did. I was running GFO changed monthly and was dosing vinegar with my kalk. 15% water changes were performed weekly.
Any advice for moving forward would be greatly appreciated. Oh and before you ask, I never did identify what type of dinos I was dealing with.
Thanks

Edit: I knew I forgot something. I was also adding additional kalk, in a slurry, to try to raise pH during the first 3 day lights out period and during the 5 day blackout, though to a lesser extent the second time due to equipment and livestock issues that were experienced the first time.

 

[karimwassef]

Sounds like your tank was very algae free and low in nutrients.

IMHO, I think there is a risk with carbon dosing of reducing nitrates so low that algae struggle and dinos can thrive with minimal phosphate and nearly no nitrates.

If you're looking healthy, then the dinos are just waiting for you to set up that perfect condition again. I would keep phosphates low, but don't shred down to zero nitrates again. Give a little algae room to hold on and defend against dinos. I don't think you need to stop carbon dosing, just keep it in balance to your feeding level.

That's my advice, anyway. I used the clean method with heavy UV and skimming and killed off my dinos that way. I've kept it up with no downside to date.

 

[cal_stir]

I'm slowly bringing my tank back from a state of dirty, basically maintaining the big 3 and let the po4 and no3 to rise to .08 and 5 ppm respectively(both were 0) , I also removed most of my sand bed. I stopped UV, carbon and skimming for about 3 weeks and did small water changes. I've resumed carbon and skimming.
I now get a green film on the glass daily where before dinos it was a week, no more brown film on the glass, I use 10uM filter socks on my drains which I change every 2 days. Looking at the tank I can't tell I have dinos but under the microscope I still see a few in my skimmate and socks but they seem deformed and are weak swimmers, I've started culturing phyto to rebuild the micro fauna and critters that were destroyed by FM algaeX (trying to get rid of bubble algae) which I believe are what keep the dinos in check. Hopefully this is the nail in the dino coffin.
Ostreopsis Ovata.

 

[DDon]

Sounds like your tank was very algae free and low in nutrients.

IMHO, I think there is a risk with carbon dosing of reducing nitrates so low that algae struggle and dinos can thrive with minimal phosphate and nearly no nitrates.

If you're looking healthy, then the dinos are just waiting for you to set up that perfect condition again. I would keep phosphates low, but don't shred down to zero nitrates again. Give a little algae room to hold on and defend against dinos. I don't think you need to stop carbon dosing, just keep it in balance to your feeding level.

That's my advice, anyway. I used the clean method with heavy UV and skimming and killed off my dinos that way. I've kept it up with no downside to date.

Thanks for your input.
I never carbon dosed to reduce nitrate, only added to kalk to increase strength of kalk solution, though I do understand I was carbon dosing doing that. I have always run with very low nitrates in the tank, have never been able to get a reading (3 different test kits). Have been able to maintain phosphates at a relatively low level. My tank has always been algae free with the exception of cyano, a green algae similar looking to cyano that I was ale to blow off with turkey baster and some bubble alage. I did buy some sodium nitrate to try to increase my nitrates to a measurable level during my battle with dinos but abandoned that for now. May consider doing in the future if I go back with vinegar in my kalk.

 

[karimwassef]

Adding vinegar to Kalk is carbon dosing- you may have been overdriving your nitrate reduction into the dino zone without realizing it.

I wouldn't intentionally add nitrates. I'd just feed... Shame to deprive the food chain and just jump to an additive imo.

 

[DDon]

Adding vinegar to Kalk is carbon dosing- you may have been overdriving your nitrate reduction into the dino zone without realizing it.

I wouldn't intentionally add nitrates. I'd just feed... Shame to deprive the food chain and just jump to an additive imo.

Thanks. Yep I realized I was carbon dosing doing what I was doing just wasn't for that intention.
I feed fairly heavy and that is my preference as well.

I do appreciate all your feedback, thanks for responding.

 

[DDon]

I'm slowly bringing my tank back from a state of dirty, basically maintaining the big 3 and let the po4 and no3 to rise to .08 and 5 ppm respectively(both were 0) , I also removed most of my sand bed. I stopped UV, carbon and skimming for about 3 weeks and did small water changes. I've resumed carbon and skimming.
I now get a green film on the glass daily where before dinos it was a week, no more brown film on the glass, I use 10uM filter socks on my drains which I change every 2 days. Looking at the tank I can't tell I have dinos but under the microscope I still see a few in my skimmate and socks but they seem deformed and are weak swimmers, I've started culturing phyto to rebuild the micro fauna and critters that were destroyed by FM algaeX (trying to get rid of bubble algae) which I believe are what keep the dinos in check. Hopefully this is the nail in the dino coffin.
Ostreopsis Ovata.

Do you feel running the tank "dirty" was the key to you getting rid of dinos (or at least getting them under control)? Have you seen any change for the worse or better since you restarted your skimmer? If I remember correctly you also used kordon ich attach but don't remember what the result was for you.

 

[Mikefromaz]

Short and to the point. My tank was healthy and happy with a cosmetic problem (hair algae). The use of my choice of a marine algae killer made my tank "pretty" again. The problem is it also kicked my ecosystem back about three billion years to the point where dinos and cyano were likely the dominant life forms on earth. My dinos are mostly suppressed at the moment. Super nitrate/phosphate dcrubbers, vodka dosing, UV, yada, yada..... Despite the tank being on its way to "pretty" again I have no doubt it is otherwise a dinoflagellate dominated eco desert. Soooo...that being said I intend to visit my LFS and pick up a healthy dose of their live phyto/ rotifer/ pod offering and at least give the dinos some competition as they had before screwing things up.

 

[Mikefromaz]

Marine algse killer? Drae ypur own conclusion. I havr.

 

[DDon]

Short and to the point. My tank was healthy and happy with a cosmetic problem (hair algae). The use of my choice of a marine algae killer made my tank "pretty" again. The problem is it also kicked my ecosystem back about three billion years to the point where dinos and cyano were likely the dominant life forms on earth. My dinos are mostly suppressed at the moment. Super nitrate/phosphate dcrubbers, vodka dosing, UV, yada, yada..... Despite the tank being on its way to "pretty" again I have no doubt it is otherwise a dinoflagellate dominated eco desert. Soooo...that being said I intend to visit my LFS and pick up a healthy dose of their live phyto/ rotifer/ pod offering and at least give the dinos some competition as they had before screwing things up.

Makes alot of sense. Don't know how many posts I have read, or been guilty of myself, that having a problem with "x" so I add "y" and now dinos or some other undesireable has taken over. In my case cyano was the problem with suspected dinos lurking so started peroxide dosing, then bam, dinos in full bloom. I'm sure the peroxide was not too friendly to the microfauna.

This is the first tank I have experienced dinos in and also first that cyano was a major pain. But this is also the first tank I have run so "sterile". Started it off with carbon and gfo reactors, vinegar dosing in kalk [only when I needed a stronger concentration], etc. (Was an upgrade not a new setup). In previous tanks, I ran carbon passively and as far as gfo, never heard of it when I had my first reef tank and only ran a couple times passively in the tank I upgraded from. Maybe it's time I stop treating for issues that don't even exist and go back to keeping things simple.

 

[Mikefromaz]

My problem is not so much tried and true stuff like nitrate and phosphate control. My real problem ws the hsir algae was getting put of control and I misread the low nitrate as "no" nitrate. Of course the HAwas gobbling it up. Reviewing what I was doing wrong I had to take a hard look at the way I was feeding the fish. The big mistake on my part was throwing the flake food in the sump chamber with the return pump. A lot of food simply never made it to the tank. Nitrate factory for sure and I was too willing to believe the low nitrate test results. Someone a lot smarter than me once wrote on here If ypu fon' know exactly what ypu are doing to your reef don't do it. I managed to turn a cosmetic problem into a disaster by not researching any potential side effects of marine algae killers. So far I've lost about 20 snails, three stonies, and my foot high nepthea is losing pieces of itself. If that stress continues with it being as toxic as it can be there is a real risk to the remaining corals. Time for a carbon change (grin). About 12 years ago I had a single Tonga mushroom die in my amazingly successful 80gal reef. Ten years without a single coral loss. Anyway it released turpenes when it died. Seventy two hours later every coral in my tank was history. I always pass that along. Thanks for your post and good luck.

 

[bertoni]

One mushroom killed an entire tank? Ouch! I'd be unhappy. I'm sorry to hear about your losses.

 

[karimwassef]

So I've had my UV running continuously for a few weeks. No dinos but a ton of planktonic life... Baby shrimp, starfish, worms and some kinds of pods.

Here are the baby marine shrimp
http://youtu.be/FukA9LnuhWE

I think that some plankton doesn't get sucked into the overflow at night and doesn't get zapped. These guys tend to stay close to the rocks and sand. With the UV, I think it biases the plankton in favor of those that don't free float?

 

[Mikefromaz]

Thanks Jonathan. Yeah it was years ago. The most striking thing was my wife and I kept smelling "turpentine" Even though the tank was in another room it didn't take long to find the source. I am a whole lot more relaxed now that it seems the dinos are in decline in my rather small system.

 

[cal_stir]

Do you feel running the tank "dirty" was the key to you getting rid of dinos (or at least getting them under control)? Have you seen any change for the worse or better since you restarted your skimmer? If I remember correctly you also used kordon ich attach but don't remember what the result was for you.

I did the ich attack for five days at regular dose and didn't see any difference so I didn't continue for fear of "kicking my ecosystem back 3 billion years again". Things are still getting better after restarting my skimmer, I think I was on the verge of hair algae though.
I spent a lot of time and effort physically removing by blowing off the rocks, UV, 10uM filter socks, heavy skimming, although that helped it only got me 75% there and if I let up the dinos picked up. Removing as much of the sand bed as I could took me to 90% but still had dino loaded brown diatoms growing on the glass which I had to clean daily (no green micro algae at all). letting the water dirty up has taken me to a new level where the green film algae has out competed the brown, It's obviously not for nutrients but more for space or it actually eats the dinos, I don't know but my tank looks its best in a year. I'm hedging my bet on phyto regenerating my ecosystem back to pre algaex conditions and putting the final nail in the dino coffin.

 

[mathman7728]

brown vs green film on glass

brown vs green film on glass

i still see dinos on the sand bed (i dont see hairs or bubbles--i hope that is because i try not to let them get away from me) but i noticed that the glass has a brown film but not a green film. what is the difference between green vs brown...what is that saying about the DT?

 

[cal_stir]

i still see dinos on the sand bed (i dont see hairs or bubbles--i hope that is because i try not to let them get away from me) but i noticed that the glass has a brown film but not a green film. what is the difference between green vs brown...what is that saying about the DT?

When I put the brown film under the microscope I saw 99% diatoms and 1% dinos. After I turned off the UV, skimmer and carbon for a couple weeks the green algae appeared and quickly took over from the brown film, when I put the green under the scope I see only algae and no dinos. I my case I believe the dinos were out competing the micro algae and when physically beaten back the diatoms took there place, by letting the water dirty up it allowed the micro algae and other micro fauna to get reestablished and out compete the diatoms and dinos.
I didn't restart the UV for fear of decimating the micro fauna again.
Like karimwassef says, you either go dirty or go clean and heavy UV, dirty is working for me.

 

[lu9103]

One of my buddies had this issue in his tank and what he did , he got cardboard and cover all the sides of his tank, he made sure that thier was no light what so ever got into the tank, he then turned off all his lights to the tank for 3 days and on the 4th day he uncovered the tank it they were all gone. I hope this helps.

 

[EvMiBo]

When I put the brown film under the microscope I saw 99% diatoms and 1% dinos. After I turned off the UV, skimmer and carbon for a couple weeks the green algae appeared and quickly took over from the brown film, when I put the green under the scope I see only algae and no dinos. I my case I believe the dinos were out competing the micro algae and when physically beaten back the diatoms took there place, by letting the water dirty up it allowed the micro algae and other micro fauna to get reestablished and out compete the diatoms and dinos.
I didn't restart the UV for fear of decimating the micro fauna again.
Like karimwassef says, you either go dirty or go clean and heavy UV, dirty is working for me.

What size UV and brand were you using? What pump were you using? What volume is the system?

 

[cal_stir]

Another note, when I dirtied up the tank cyano started to take over as well but since restarting my skimmer and carbon it is subsiding to.