Dinoflagellates.

Very interesting DNA, re the nuero implications. Sounds like we absorb the toxin and then slowly metabolize it. Sounds like a couple weeks delay after getting fresh air points to the half life, or recovery time anyway. Very cool observation. Any idea how to research this more workout experimenting on our selves?
 
Check out a product called Vibrant. Huge thread on the other reef 2 reef site. I had a huge dino problem. Been dosing for 1+ month and they are 95% gone. Its a bacteria product. I tried everything..metro, dinox, blackouts, bleach (didn't go big enough).
 
We have tried so many things that you should aim for something wildly different from what has already been proven to be futile.

I am finally trying oryzalin (a plant "specific" microtubule inhibitor). See my post 340-343 for a little more detail. It has been two years and this one tank of mine still has this dinoflagelatte like condition (I think it is actually a Eudorina based on the looks), but it behaves like a classical dinoflagelllate.

Dosed a very low dose ( 3ml of 0.1 mg/ml in ethanol) this evening.

will push until I see an effect or run out of oryzalin
 
nematode said:
We have tried so many things that you should aim for something wildly different from what has already been proven to be futile.

I am finally trying oryzalin (a plant "specific" microtubule inhibitor). See my post 340-343 for a little more detail. It has been two years and this one tank of mine still has this dinoflagelatte like condition (I think it is actually a Eudorina based on the looks), but it behaves like a classical dinoflagelllate.

Dosed a very low dose ( 3ml of 0.1 mg/ml in ethanol) this evening.

will push until I see an effect or run out of oryzalin
Click to expand...

Interesting. Would like to hear back on this.

My Amphidinium issue seems under control as of today. I know there still there, but wonder if enough molestation I did cut them back:

Actions:
1) added another conch and some sandbed snails to stir up more crap
2) raised pH via Kalk, total of 5 days over 8.4 during lights on periods, gave a break after each day.
3) raised dkh from 8.3 -> ~9.5
4) dumped some pods in there.
5) Added some Dr. Tims
6) tried adding a shaving brush plant in the fuge, skimmer went ape and it stank, removed and replaced with some cheato.
7) Added some seachem purigen
8) Turned up light intensity a little

Also have a decent microscope on the way...so I can actually get an ID and photos on this stuff. Pretty excited about that. Had a clinical pathologist help me with the model.

I added back GFO on 11/30, maybe 2/10 cup to see if that would bring them back. Cleaned skimmer last sunday.

I hate to say the battle is done...but the sandbed looks nice.
PO4-.08 Hanna
NO3-25 Salifert
34.4 cond.
77.5-78.3
Ca 430
Mg 1350

I ordered a bottle of vibrant just to have on hand. Not dosed yet.
 
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I took a brief look at the other Vibrant threads and what I read makes sense in several ways so I'm going to attempt to import it.
I have very little faith in bottled magic solutions, but have nothing to lose so why not.

I've established a firm believe, through my latest observations, that marine snow (debris or detritus) is essential to dinoflagellates.
My tank has the most dense floating particle count I've seen in any tank and that is without any sandbed and very short lighting period.
The skimmer is pulling less of it than I'd expect, but the filter sock can clog in a day. There is plenty of hard fecal pellets and calcareous particles in there that one would expect the skimmer to have a hard time to remove. It's been this way for a very long time and to my surprise the effect of removal of the sand-bed and drastically shorter lighting period, was negligent.

If the stuff works I've got a pretty good idea how we get dinos in the first place and how to maximize its chances.
 
I'm not a fan of bacterial potions in general either, but used it on a customer's tank with ostis and in one week since I've seen the tank, about there was about 60% reduction. To be fair, we did do a bit of dirty method by dosing dead phyto so copepods had other foods to consume and not overdose on dinos.
 
I've mentioned marine snow a few times now and none have picked up on how important it is.
Marine snow is essential for Ostreopsis dinoflagellates and probably other species of dinos as well.
I can say this now with certainty since I have no visible dinos in my display tank.
It's like a law of nature and it has been accepted in the natural science world.
It's just that reefers have not paid any attention to it and we have not been able to prove it as a cause for dinoflagellate blooms.

That's why I set out to do just that.
I removed around 95% of the sandbed and 40% of the live rocks to reduce surface area.
Then for weeks I blew the marine snow off the remaining rocks up to 10 times a day and siphoned the remaining sand every other day for weeks.
An XL filter sock would clog up every day and the amount that kept coming was unbelievable and it still is.
Now with nothing short of compulsive dedication and massive amounts of time spent the results are in.

Marine snow is essential to dinoflagelles. It is that simple.

No visible dinos in the display tank, but small patches in the sump since much of the marine snow does not skim well.
------

I urge you to prove me wrong, but I don't think that is going to happen so I'm suggesting a method to get you going in reproducing my results.
First I must mention that this would be considered drastic by most reefers and certain to change several things in your reef tank so use it a last resort and if you have little or nothing to lose. Fish will be fine, but corals and critters may get hit. I'm pretty sure there are side effect from this as well as from the dino toxins that are already in you tank.

Remove all corals. You can place them in your sump after your get it spotless.
Remove all sand. Yes that means all of it.

Set up a series of buckets with clean water from your tank and spin your rocks in there.
The first one is going to get dirty really fast so put it aside and let the dirt settle and reuse most of the water in another bucket.

You may now have ridden you tank of around 90% of the marine snow, but it may not be enough so you may need to do this several times.
I'd recommend at least twice a week for the rocks. Do use filter socks, loads of current and all the detritus reducing methods you can come up with. This is not an easy task so expect it to take a lot of work and weeks or months of time.

------

I call it marine snow, but since our tanks are really small compared to the ocean it's not the exact same thing.
It consists of many things, but the most noteworthy could be fecal pellets, bacteria and small lifeforms.

Even if you manage to rid your tank of dinos this way it's more than likely it will not be instantly ready for difficult corals.
We are just not there yet.
 
I've been through an 8oz bottle of Vibrant at 2 doses a week and unfortunately it hasn't made much of a dent in my dinos. Not sure what method I'm going to try next, but I'm more likely to just break the entire tank down than battle these for any longer. Already been at it for 6 months, and I'm about done trying. Along with my snails and corals, they are killing any enjoyment I have for reefkeeping.
 
In my case there is a clear link between dinos and marine snow. I've been trying to spot if that is the case for other tanks as well.
It's quite difficult to eyeball the density of floating particles since it's all about reference. A dimly T5 lit reef tank with a bright background will not reveal them well compared to a bright small light source against a black background. The best general method would be to use a very bright (led) flashlight in total darkness. You would shine it from a side panel and watch the particles from the front panel.

The indirect indication in my tank is that the skimmer is not pulling the same amount of gunk as before. These things change slowly so reefers are unlikely to notice them. The current theory is that the marine snow gets to stay longer in the tank giving dinos ample time to feast as they flock on top of them on the sandbed. If you get my drift you'll see how the claims from Vibrant make sense to me. It's the poop converting properties I'm excited about, so as I mention 5 posts back, assisting it the best way you can seems to be a wise thing to do.

The guys at BRS seem to have dinos in their show tank and high particle count. How is it in yours?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk0AYpLvxjE&feature=youtu.be&t=145
 
Soooooo DNA: What are your thoughts now on the link with dinos and marine snow. Presumably I'd think carbon dosing would encourage bacteria to consume this before the dinos could get to it?
 
Carbon dosing could help, but that's not always the case. At least some dinoflagellates can take up organic carbon directly, as well as perform photosynthesis using inorganic carbon. There are references to mixotrophic dinoflagellates that Google will find.
 
Sand, rocks, glass, pumps, overflow, snails, some corals, anything still for more than 5 minutes.

Here is what they actually look like on the sand

IMG_0816.jpg
 
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Anyone have success slowing down Dinos going 20k? I am a little unorthodox and run multiple 10k t5 tubes....i have had a 6 month Dino issue,although not severe. Lights out always seems to stress my sps too much because the tank isn't too stable to begin with the nutrient swings the Dino's seem to cause so I like to employ methods that are gentle as possible...tempted to run all blue and actinic bulbs to see if they slow down....think this would help?
 
koral_lover said:
Anyone have success slowing down Dinos going 20k? I am a little unorthodox and run multiple 10k t5 tubes....i have had a 6 month Dino issue,although not severe. Lights out always seems to stress my sps too much because the tank isn't too stable to begin with the nutrient swings the Dino's seem to cause so I like to employ methods that are gentle as possible...tempted to run all blue and actinic bulbs to see if they slow down....think this would help?
Click to expand...

Your answer is on page one.
Get to know what has been tried and then get creative.
 
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