DIY Sulfur Denitrator

[tmz]

Using it only as a problem solver is not advisable as it solves nothing.

Except the reduction of high nitrates quickly which enables other corrective actions to address the imbalance of nitrogen inputs and exports long term.

I never said I only use it only as a problem solver,that's your misrepresentation of my position;it's not mine.

To be clear . I don't,however, accept the argument that excessive sulfur should be in use when it's not needed for the amount of nitrate reduction needed The side effects of sulfur bacterial activity noted repeatedly in earlier posts shouldn't be dismissed . We can do better.
The sources you cited say match the sulfur amount and flow rate to the amount of nitrate.I agree.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

To be clear . I don't,however, accept the argument that excessive sulfur should be in use when it's not needed for the amount of nitrate reduction needed The side effects of sulfur bacterial activity noted repeatedly in earlier posts shouldn't be dismissed . We can do better.
The sources you cited say match the sulfur amount and flow rate to the amount of nitrate.I agree.

There is no such thing as excessive sulphur . When used as part of the system there must be enough sulphur to handle any possible situation. When the amount of sulphur is matched with the daily amount of nitrate to remove how will this reactor will be managed when this daily amount suddenly rises?

Which side effects? After more than 10 years of use no side effects where noted. How eventual side effects can be managed by the amount of sulphur? it is the flow which will determine the aerobic and anaerobic activity in the reactor. Not the amount of sulphur will influence alkalinity and PH. Sulphur is inert! Sulphate production depends on the amount of nitrate to remove not on the amount of sulphur in the reactor. The amount of sulphur will only influence the working of the reactor when there is not enough!

Match the sulphur amount and the flow rate to the amount of nitrate? The amount of nitrate in the water or the total amount of nitrate in the system?
As you agree, an I would agree also when it was manageable, can you tell us how much sulphur has to be used for a certain amount of nitrate? It would help to know.
The amount of sulphur does not have to match the amount of nitrate as long there is enough. The question is: how much is enough?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Problem solver?

Problem solver?

As a lot of reactors are used when no other method did work to reduce the nitrate build up, they come in action when the level of nitrate is really high. Used this way the use of a sulfhur de-nitrator will have some influence on the alkalinity and PH of the system. This must be monitored and corrections have to be made regularly. Do not let drop the PH to low!
When in a heavily fed aqua a big water change is made or other means are used to correct a low PH one may experience sudden unusual behaviour of the animals in the aquarium, even some may die. When one does not know what is happening, one will point to the de-nitrator to have caused this problem when it was the water-change and/or a sudden PH correction which disturbed the ammonium balance that caused the problems.

 

[tmz]

There is no such thing as excessive sulphur

No comment , it should be obvious ;that is .......

Which side effects?

Noted many times; alkalinity , sulfate production, added H+ with pH reduction,sulfate reduction and sulfide,etc. Bacteria produce CO2 in aerobic activity as well as anaearobic activity.Extra flow may bring in more nitrate to the reactor but likely more oxygen for the aerobic side which doesn't reduce any nitrate.

Sulphate production depends on the amount of nitrate to remove not on the amount of sulphur in the reactor.

Aerobic and and anaerobic bacterial activity oxidize the sulfur to sulfate,don't they? More sulfur = more bacterial activity. You can't train bacteria not to scavenge and available energy source;can you?

The question is: how much is enough?

I think that will vary depending on a number of things for a specific tank but certainly using 1% of water volume for 0.5 NO3 and the same amount of sulfur for 49ppm of nitrate or 2% for 50/53ppm. makes no sense and can be refined to avoid excessive use of sulfur and to help manage the reactor. not to "mismanage" it with "wrong thinking" as you assert repeatedly,to many times to count, without basis,. You really don't know anything about my aquariums and methods and are IMO unqualified to judge them.
It's not my habit to dictate what people should do with rigid rules or to attack their methods if they don't do exactly what I do. My purpose is to examine how things work ; and to share that information to enable informed decisions without being unduly judgmental or dismissive of facts that don"t jibe with any particular method I choose to use.

 

[tmz]

it was the water-change and/or a sudden PH correction which disturbed the ammonium balance that caused the problems.

PH is driven by CO2 in the water adding H+ as it hydolizes. Much of it comes from the air surrounding the tank and bacterial activity in the tank. Water changes will only have a fleeting and variable effect on pH. CO2 levels in the water equilibriate with the air . Bacterial activity in the system adds it back to post change levels
Ammonia speciation is pH dependent. (the more H+ .the higher the pH) With more H+ in the water the proportion of total ammonia present as NH4 increases and the amount present as NH3(a a commonly thought of as the less toxic form) decreases.
Water changes may change the pH toward more normal levels but will also reduce the amount of total ammonia in the tank ,so the change in ammonia speciation if any should be very adequately offset with a net reduction in total ammonia, unless the ammonia is being fed in from somewhere.
So ,the real qustion is why is total ammonia high enoough to create a toxic condition.

This article by Randy H Farley provides a lot of information of ammonia for those who wan't more comprehensive and true information :


http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

This is from it:


Because many authors attribute ammonia's toxicity primarily to free ammonia (whether this is correct or not, see below), Figure 2 shows an expanded view of Figure 1 for the free ammonia concentration over the pH range of usual interest in reef aquaria. The amount of free ammonia present at pH 7.8 is about one-fourth the amount present at pH 8.5.
<table cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2" align="center" border="2" width="52%"> <tbody><tr> <td height="323">

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Figure 2. The fraction of free ammonia (NH₃) present in seawater as a function of pH over the range of most interest to reef aquarists. This figure reproduces Figure 1 on an expanded scale.




​

 

[Belgian Anthias]

There is no such thing as excessive sulphur

No comment , it should be obvious ;that is .......

Which side effects?

Noted many times; alkalinity , sulfate production, added H+ with pH reduction,sulfate reduction and sulfide,etc. Bacteria produce CO2 in aerobic activity as well as anaearobic activity.Extra flow may bring in more nitrate to the reactor but likely more oxygen for the aerobic side which doesn't reduce any nitrate.

Sulphate production depends on the amount of nitrate to remove not on the amount of sulphur in the reactor.

Aerobic and and anaerobic bacterial activity oxidize the sulfur to sulfate,don't they? More sulfur = more bacterial activity. You can't train bacteria not to scavenge and available energy source;can you?

The question is: how much is enough?

I think that will vary depending on a number of things for a specific tank but certainly using 1% of water volume for 0.5 NO3 and the same amount of sulfur for 49ppm of nitrate or 2% for 50/53ppm. makes no sense and can be refined to avoid excessive use of sulfur and to help manage the reactor. not to "mismanage" it with "wrong thinking" as you assert repeatedly,to many times to count, without basis,. You really don't know anything about my aquariums and methods and are IMO unqualified to judge them.
It's not my habit to dictate what people should do with rigid rules or to attack their methods if they don't do exactly what I do. My purpose is to examine how things work ; and to share that information to enable informed decisions without being unduly judgmental or dismissive of facts that don"t jibe with any particular method I choose to use.

I never wanted to judge you!
You made yourself a H2s factory in the past and I am just telling how to avoid this. I am telling how to make a reliable de-nitration system and I explained how to manage it and why. I explained how much sulphur should be used when one is not able do determine how much sulphur to use.
The amount of sulphur has no or very little influence on the water quality. Why bother? The reason why nitrate builds up should be a concern. The effect on water quality and the reason why will be found there.

Bacterial activity is part of normal live and when dead was not build in they would rule the world within a week. And we can do nothing about it!

The side effects you are talking about is normal water management. And sulphate? Test have pointed out that most of the little amount of produced sulphate is hold back in the calcium reactors and is removed when these reactors are cleaned. Anyway there has never been any side effects noted on marine live using a sulfur de-nitrator when managed the way it should.

 

[tmz]

You made yourself a H2s factory in the past

There you go again misrepreseting and judging;I made a sufur dentrator years ago and it worked well ;it did produce some H2s for a short period of time once nitrate levels dropped. Many others report similar issuesAfter adjustments to sulfur amount and flow it works just fine. Pusjhng a lot of water and oxygen through should also limit H2S by icreasing it's oxidation but at the expense of anaerobic nitrate reduction and the side effects of sufur oxidation. No need to keep a bunch of excess sulfur running continuosly unless nitrate reduction warrants it. simpleThe side effects I noted are direct effects of the reaction in the reactor.They can occur in other ways but the sufur oxidation contributes to them.
I don't know who you are arguing with since your are consistently restating my positions and experience inaccurately and ignoring the reality of reactions and bacterial activity in a reactor . It's always easier when you pick a strawman to argue with and design science to fit preconceived notions or just ignore it and tell folks you don't need it. Unfortunately that approach does little to improve management practices or learning.

Talk about what you do for your aqauirums all you like . Anecdotal experience is useful to know about. However, when you pretend science or criticize other methods, expect a challenge.

 

[tmz]

OK skimmed back through the thread . My experience with building and using a denitrator on it's maiden voyage in 2008, 6 years ago in is detailed earlier in this thread . There are many folks who helped me when I asked for it and many I helped. The early parts of the thread are worth a quick view by those considering a sulfur dentirator BTW there are over 50 posts by me early on running from post 519 to799 so there is no need to restate it by you and little reason to to accept your the misrepresetations. The real stuff is on the record. There are only about 40 posts since April of 2009.

BTW, I used only 3 liters of sulfur to reduce nitrate from around 60ppm to near zero in a short period of time . For the 575 gallon heavily stocked and you would demand no less than 44 liters :15 times as much. Seems like overkill to me. There is at least one other reefer who reduced a similar nitrate level with 1 gallon of sulfur for a 1,000 gallon system vs the 10 your rules would require. Oops.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

OK skimmed back through the thread . My experience with building and using a denitrator on it's maiden voyage in 2008, 6 years ago in is detailed earlier in this thread . There are many folks who helped me when I asked for it and many I helped. The early parts of the thread are worth a quick view by those considering a sulfur dentirator BTW there are over 50 posts by me early on running from post 519 to799 so there is no need to restate it by you and little reason to to accept your the misrepresetations. The real stuff is on the record. There are only about 40 posts since April of 2009.

BTW, I used only 3 liters of sulfur to reduce nitrate from around 60ppm to near zero in a short period of time . For the 575 gallon heavily stocked and you would demand no less than 44 liters :15 times as much. Seems like overkill to me. There is at least one other reefer who reduced a similar nitrate level with 1 gallon of sulfur for a 1,000 gallon system vs the 10 your rules would require. Oops.

You do it your way!

1Gal for 1000 gal and remove 60ppm + daily production. As the aim is to pass the system water once a day true the reactor I do not see this happen.

To bring down the level one has only to remove more than the daily production. To do this on an easy manageable way all the system water has to pass the reactor min once a day! The reactor has to be big enough to do this with an effluent of 0 nitrate. When the reactor is to small one has to bring down the flow to a level that may bring the reactor in a critical situation. With this flow it may take days before the system volume has passed the system. Than one has not only to remove the daily production but the production of 3 or more days to lower the nitrate level.. As constantly 0 nitrate water from a to small reactor is mixed with 60 ppm nitrate water at a rate of 1/1000 how the daily amount will be removed?
This is only possible outside the aquarium, to clean water in reserve that is not used in the system. And it will take a long time. With a possible flow of 1 gal/h it will take 1000hrs to pass the system water once true the reactor. As the water is constantly mixed it will take at least 2 times as long to pass all the water true the reactor. Let us say it will take at least 80 days!

 

[tmz]

1Gal for 1000 gal and remove 60ppm + daily production. As the aim is to pass the system water once a day true the reactor I do not see this happen.

That's not what you said earlier .If you look you' find an earlier post by you agreeing it happened for another reefer.

The total system volume need not pass through the reactor everyday.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

The total system volume need not pass through the reactor everyday.

That is true. It depends of the daily to remove quantity and the desired level in the system. When low nitrate levels are desired daily flow will be higher as the systems volume. A good reactor must be able to pass daily the systems volume otherwise low nitrate levels can not be kept.
When for example a 1000l system produces 0.5ppm/day, 500mg nitrate has to be removed daily. At a level of 1ppm, 250l flow a day will remove the production. If low nitrate levels are desired, as do most reef keepers, at 0.2ppm the daily flow must be equal to the systems volume to remove the daily production. At 0.1 ppm flow will be twice the systems volume.If daily nitrate production builds up, the reactor must be able to keep the same low nitrate level and flow has to increase more. The reactor must be big enough to handle the flow needed.
It is true, the systems volume does not need to pass true the reactor every day, but a reactor that can be used in most circumstances must be able to handle at least the systems volume once a day, otherwise keeping the nitrate level low will not be possible in a well fed aquarium.

 

[caffboy]

Sorry to go back to a basic question but if someone could advice me on my current set up.
I purchased a used korallin denitator s3002 from a fellow reefer after attemtping to use the original sulfur media after 4 weeks i still did not see a reduction in nitrates in the effluent in comparision to the main display.
So i replaced the sulfur with 99.5% pure sulfur prills which i believe we would call unseeded.It has been 14 days and the nitrites from the effluent are 0 but still there is no difference in the nitrates between the MD effluent.
I have a drip rate of 1 drop per sec 4lbs of sulfur media for a 180gallon heavily stocked mixed reef .
There is not much to say about the chamber other then that when i gently tap the chamber bubbles rise which must be nitrogen gas as they have no odor when i vent them.
Should there be a reduction of the nitrates in the effluent if the the media is building up the bacteria or does reduction only take place once it has been fully colonized.
Thanks for any support

 

[tmz]

Not sure waht MD effluent means? If you mean your aquarium is not showing a reduction and the denitrator effluent is zero, I'd increase the flow through the denitrator until the effluent from it gave you just a touch of nitrate say 1ppm or even a little higher .
What is your NO3 level in the aquarium?

 

[caffboy]

Sorry Main Display and effluent have exactly the same readings i was advised by a retail outlet that the cycling process for the media can take between 4-6 weeks and until such time a reduction even in the effluent will not be noticeable.
Based on the comments and results in this thread 4-6 weeks seems an awfully long time.
Am i overlooking something or can or should i possibily seed it or should i just wait and let nature take its course

 

[tmz]

When for example a 1000l system produces 0.5ppm/day, 500mg nitrate has to be removed daily. At a level of 1ppm, 250l flow a day will remove the production.

How do you know that?

 

[Surf&turf]

What type of media do you run in the reactor?

 

[AcroporAddict]

What type of media do you run in the reactor?

Sulfur pearls or pellets, depending on where it comes from.

 

[Surf&turf]

Will caribsea no no3 and a.r.m. media work?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

When for example a 1000l system produces 0.5ppm/day, 500mg nitrate has to be removed daily. At a level of 1ppm, 250l flow a day will remove the production.

How do you know that?

Simple mathematics. Only when the reactor is big enough.
Sorry,but the calculation above is not correct; If 500mg has to be removed, at a nitrate level of 1ppm 500l has to pass the reactor daily to remove the daily production and not 250l.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Sorry to go back to a basic question but if someone could advice me on my current set up.

I have a drip rate of 1 drop per sec 4lbs of sulfur media for a 180gallon heavily stocked mixed reef .

Thanks for any support

First one has to know the actual level of nitrate in the system. When multiplying the flow rate with the actual amount in ppm one can determine the amount of nitrate in mg the de-nitrator is removing daily with an effluent 0 NO3.
This reactor is know removing daily +- 0,4 l/h x level NO3 in ppm x 24 = not much.
For easy management one should know the daily over-production of nitrate in the system.
One drop a second is very low and is a starting up rate. Flow must be increased gradually. To give an idea, normal flow can l go up to 1l/h for 1l S and more. So, sulfur must be given in volume and not in weight. For max working capacity the pellets must be small, between 1 and 2 mm. If bigger they can be crushed. Do not use sulfur flower.
A new sulfur denitrator filled with pure sulfur would show nitrate reduction after a few days already, would be active after one week and have normal activity within a month.