DIY Sulfur Denitrator

[canada55]

interesting set-up!!! what chamber are you monitoring pH? i have read that pH above 7.0 is better for the sulfur bacteria? keep us posted on the progress. given the size of the system, i would have filled two reactors with sulfur and monitored the second chamber, but only time will tell? Deltec's system is similar with orp controlling a second flow into the reactor. GL

I'm currently testing reactor output with Salifert pH test kit every 24hrs, once things settle down I will use the pH probe to monitor the output for informational reasons only.

The volume of sulfur was a real confusing issue for me, so many arguments for more sulfur - less sulfur , so I went with the (djfrankie) formula 500g X .006 = 3ltr sulfur, but since I'm high on my nitrates I went the full gallon (3.75ltr). We all have so many variables that it's too hard to be 100% sure what works and what does not. What's nice about what I built is it can be easily reconfigured and restarted..I can easily move the ORP probe to the second reactor because lids are interchangeable...

 

[CHSUB]

I'm currently testing reactor output with Salifert pH test kit every 24hrs, once things settle down I will use the pH probe to monitor the output for informational reasons only.

The volume of sulfur was a real confusing issue for me, so many arguments for more sulfur - less sulfur , so I went with the (djfrankie) formula 500g X .006 = 3ltr sulfur, but since I'm high on my nitrates I went the full gallon (3.75ltr). We all have so many variables that it's too hard to be 100% sure what works and what does not. What's nice about what I built is it can be easily reconfigured and restarted..I can easily move the ORP probe to the second reactor because lids are interchangeable...

yes, i agree, the amount of sulfur is always a debate! i started with djfrankie formula also, but found i needed more; although some find it enough.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

"What is the function of the matrix in a sulphur dentrator?"

cut and paste from
Do It Yourself "“ Sulfur Reactor
By Frank Aguilar (djfrankie)

"For those with really large aquarium systems I recommend you use Seachem's Matrix (not the carbon) in addition to the sulfur as this seems to work quite well in providing lots of space for the colonizing bacteria. I have used as much as 1.5 liters of Seachem's Matrix per liter of sulfur with great results."

You come across as very knowledgeable about the subject, but you ask a lot of dumb *** question. There are no rules to this experimental reactor. Everyone system is so different, you can't apply what works with absolute certainty.

BADES systems are used in aquarium systems for more than a decade know and have no secrets any more. The experimental and expensive systems I read about on this forum show very little results compared to a BADESS.
There are rules for such a system, rules which have to be followed when one wants a good working system that is able to control the nitrate level in the aquarium system. I do not know what dump questions are but asking if this build will be able to remove the daily nitrate production is one of the elemental questions one has to ask before starting to build. Knowing how much sulphur has to be used is also essential and not that difficult to determine when it is known how much nitrate is produced daily. This should be determined before starting up. Also needed to be able to answer the question how much sulphur must be used is the desired nitrate level at which the reactor has to operate when the level is reduced because this is essential for the flow needed to remove the production. The reactor must be big enough! Will an ORP controlled reactor allow enough flow? This is essential knowledge to be able to build a sulphur reactor suitable for its task.
The quantity of sulphur may be an issue for some ( not for me) but on matrix I am sure that no sulphur will be oxidized which is the main function of a sulfur denitrator. As matrix is placed after the sulphur, what could be its function? The bacteria needed are able to reduce free oxygen and switch over to oxidize sulphur when there is not enough free oxygen available for everyone.. The bacteria on the matrix can not do that. Why limiting the quantity of sulphur?
If one is happy with a system that is only capable of reducing an unknown small amount of nitrate some questions do not need an answer.
As BADESS is based on continues flow moving bed reactors my knowledge is limited to such systems.
To remove a daily nitrate production of 1ppm and the nitrate level of the system water is around 1 ppm the complete system volume ( 500 gal) has to pass the sulphur reactor daily to be able to keep the nitrate level steady at 1ppm. That is +- 20 gal/h Think about that!

 

[CHSUB]

BADES systems are used in aquarium systems for more than a decade know and have no secrets any more. The experimental and expensive systems I read about on this forum show very little results compared to a BADESS.!

last night tested no3 with Salifert Test Kit, results were 0.0 or clear on side view. This is a system with 22 fish, 5 large tangs and some other large fish; fed 5 times a day, 4 with autofeeder. Previously system had a much smaller bio load and was fed sparingly, and no3 would rise to 50+ ppm. Sps' were pale and STN'ed sometimes, now colors are striking and growth excellent!!! This all with the help of an ORP controlled Sulfur Denitrator; done without monitoring drip rate and effluent's no3 level. Maybe your decade old BADESS system needs an upgrade?

 

[canada55]

Thought I would post more details of what I built. This re-circulating Denitrate Sulfur reactor design was built around the three(3) reactors I already had, not because I thought it was better design than any other. Some basic research on forums and implementation of some simple theories is what this design is based on. No voodoo science or overly complicated BADESS theories applied here "“ KISS

My aquarium system that needs to be treated with sulfur denitrator is a 500 gallon interconnected multi tank system with very large sump.
- Reef Dynamics BPR1000 bio pellet reactor
- Reef octopus RO-RPS7000EXT skimmer
- AE Tech ETSS 1000XR skimmer
- DIY algae scrubber
- 100 gallon Rubbermaid tub with 8" DSB
- 100 gallon Rubbermaid tub filled with about 300lbs of live rock
- Nitrate 75ppm
- PH: 8.0

Bits and Pieces used in build:
Three(3) 6"x18" (UMC618) GeoReef upflow media reactors
- One(1) lid modified to accommodate ORP probe
- All three reactors fitted with gas bleed valve on top
Circulation pump: Ehiem / Compact marine+ (adjustable flow 800-2400l/h)
Feed Pump: MaxiJet 1200
ORP Controller: Milwaukee SMS125 PH & ORP controller (apparently discontinued)
Pinch Valve: Bio-Chem Valve 100P2NC12-05S
Pre Filter: 10" canister filter with 20micron cartridge
CaribSea LSM: 1 gallon (roughly based on djfrankie - gallons x .006 = liters of LSM)
Seachem Matrix Bio media: 8 ltrs (no fancy math, just enough to fill reactor to top)
CaribSea ARM: 2 gallons (no fancy math, just enough to fill reactor to top)
Lots of PVC fittings and pipe

REACTOR #1
- 1gallon (3.75ltr) CaribSea LSM sandwiched between screens with some Sechem Matrix bio media sandwiched between some Matala matt on top just to take up space and to prevent fluidization of sulfur media. No other reason than just to take up space.

- output of Reactor #1 connected to bottom input of Reactor #2

- Lid holds ORP probe (interchangeable lid could be moved to any other reactor)


REACTOR #2
- Eight(8) ltrs of SeaChem Matrix bio media (less the little bit in top of reactor #1)
- Added a screen and Matala matt on top just to take up space and to prevent fluidization of Sea Chem Bio Media.

- Output of Reactor #2 connected to bottom input of Reactor #3

REACTOR #3
- Reactor #3 Two(2) gallons of CaribSea ARM
- Output of Reactor #3 connected to recirculation pump an Ehiem / Compact marine+ (adjustable flow) and then connected to bottom input of Reactor #1

EFFLUENT OUTPUT x two(2)

- Coming out the top of Reator #3 is effluent drip/flow Output #1, it's manually adjusted with micro ball valve.

- Effluent drip/flow Output #2 is controlled via Milwaukee SMS125 PH & ORP controller that will energize a NC pinch valve. If/when ORP reaches too low > -180 the pinch valve will open and allow additional flow into the reactors. I could also place a micro ball valve on this output as well so that the increased input flow is also adjustable. Thus making the reactor ORP environment adjustment/change very slow.

If I've manually adjusted reactor input flow optimally (via output #1 ball valve) and ORP never reaches a critical level the pinch valve will never open. I added this because bad stuff always happens at 3am or when you're out of town.

Input Feed
After the drip/flow output ports #1 & #2 and before the recirc. pump is the aquarium water input feed via the MaxiJet 1200. I first passed the feed water through a 10" canister filter housing fitted with 20micron filter cartridge, I'm doing this just to keep crap from building up in reactors. Might do away with it if it doesn't help keep it clean, or it's just a stupid idea.


Treatment cylinder for effluent output

The final section of my sump is 23" deep. In an effort to raise the pH level and get rid of any N2S & CO2 gas out of the effluent I assembled a 22" piece 6" of PVC pipe with a cap cemented on the bottom to seal it. I cemented lengthwise a 24" piece of 1/2" PVC pipe with an elbow on the bottom to the inside of the 6" PVC pipe. (I'll drip the effluent down this 1/2" pipe.)

About 1" from the top, on the opposite side I drilled a hole and cemented a short piece of 1/2" PVC for the conditioned effluent to drip out and into the sump. I could also drip my calcium reactor effluent into it to treat it as well.

In the bottom of the 6" PVC pipe I built a little stand out of ½" pvc pipe with a round piece of egg crate and screen sitting on the top of the stand. I then fed an airline down to an air stone sitting under the stand and then filled the thing with 1 gallon of ARM. I'm using a Hiblow air pump to pump the air into the treatment cylinder.

The idea is for the sulfur reactor effluent to enter the bottom via ½" PVC pipe of the treatment cylinder and be pulled up by the bubbles thought the ARM to help raise the pH, expel and CO2 and re-oxygenate the low oxygen effluent before entering the sump. Sounded good, lol.


Test supply water
I was just too nervous to connect this thing up to a live system so I went with a test tank filled with 15 gallons of water taken from my live system. 10 gallons of the 15 gallons would be replaced every day to maintain the high NO3 levels fed into the reactors.

- NO3 75ppm, PH 8.0, Heated to 80

I initially seeded test water with several drops of ZEObak microorganism solution. (a lot more than product recommends) I did not add ZEObak to any of the subsequent replacement water I changed daily.


Next, we'll start this thing up"¦

 

[canada55]

Denitrator up and running

I made a decision to measure/test every 24hrs so all info is based on a 24hr period


Week1
Day 1
No3 75ppm
pH 8.0 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
ORP "“ not yet setup
Flow through output from MaxiJet 1200 - wide open for 48hrs
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Recirculation pump at max (roughly 2400l/h)
No gas formation


Day2 (24hrs)
No3 50ppm
pH 7.7 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
ORP "“ not yet setup
Flow through output from MaxiJet 1200 - wide open for 48hrs
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Recirculation pump at max (roughly 2400l/h)
No gas formation

Day 3 (48hrs)
No3 50
pH 7.4 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
ORP "“ not yet setup
Flow through / output adjusted to 1 drop per second
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Recirculation pump at max (roughly 2400l/h)
No gas formation


Day 4 (96hrs, you get the idea)
No3 100
pH 7.4 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
Flow through / output adjusted to 1 drop per second
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Recirculation pump at max

Day 5
No3 100
pH 7.3 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
ORP "“204
Flow through / output adjusted to 1 drop per second
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Recirculation pump at max (roughly 2400l/h)
No gas formation

Day 6
No3 100
pH 7.3 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
ORP "“159
Flow through / output adjusted to 1 drop per second
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Recirculation pump at max (roughly 2400l/h)
No gas formation


Day 7
No3 100
pH 7.4 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
ORP "“138
Flow through / output adjusted to 1 drop per second
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Recirculation pump at max (roughly 2400l/h)
No gas formation

Week two(2) is way more exciting!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

last night tested no3 with Salifert Test Kit, results were 0.0 or clear on side view. This is a system with 22 fish, 5 large tangs and some other large fish; fed 5 times a day, 4 with autofeeder. Previously system had a much smaller bio load and was fed sparingly, and no3 would rise to 50+ ppm. Sps' were pale and STN'ed sometimes, now colors are striking and growth excellent!!! This all with the help of an ORP controlled Sulfur Denitrator; done without monitoring drip rate and effluent's no3 level. Maybe your decade old BADESS system needs an upgrade?

ORP control is used in waste water treatment for a long time and there is noting NEW or inventive about it. The question is: why use it for managing a sulfur denitrator?

As I remember the system only removes a small quantity of nitrate every day. +- 0.1ppm at a level of +- 2ppm to +- 4ppm? At a level of 0.5 ppm this ORP controlled system will only remove +- 0.02ppm daily. BADESS will keep a level of 0.5 ppm and be able to remove 2 ppm (100x more) nitrate daily and a lot more. At high nitrate levels removing the daily production needs only little flow but at low nitrate levels the flow must be high enough to be able to remove the daily production.
Compared to a BADESS the ORP controlled reactor has very little potential, is very expensive and needs a lot of attention. An ORP controlled denitrator is based on limiting the flow to keep the reactor anaerobic so its use is limited to the ORP limits set. Flow can NOT follow the nitrate level in the system which is necessary to keep the level low and steady while high daily nitrate productions are removed. The risk for annoxic conditions are increased considerably when an ON-Off flow system is used. In fact ORP control has made it self necessary to prevent problems caused by it's installation!?
The flow true a BADESS is limited to the amount of bacteria needed to reduce the oxygen entered to a level where some of them switch over reducing the amount of nitrate as necessary. The reactor is NOT anaerobic! Only a small part of it. No danger for anoxic conditions.
Why ORP control?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Thought I would post more details of what I built. This re-circulating Denitrate Sulfur reactor design was built around the three(3) reactors I already had, not because I thought it was better design than any other. Some basic research on forums and implementation of some simple theories is what this design is based on. No voodoo science or overly complicated BADESS theories applied here "“ KISS

My aquarium system that needs to be treated with sulfur denitrator is a 500 gallon interconnected multi tank system with very large sump.
- Reef Dynamics BPR1000 bio pellet reactor
- Reef octopus RO-RPS7000EXT skimmer
- AE Tech ETSS 1000XR skimmer
- DIY algae scrubber
- 100 gallon Rubbermaid tub with 8" DSB
- 100 gallon Rubbermaid tub filled with about 300lbs of live rock
- Nitrate 75ppm
- PH: 8.0

Bits and Pieces used in build:
Three(3) 6"x18" (UMC618) GeoReef upflow media reactors
- One(1) lid modified to accommodate ORP probe
- All three reactors fitted with gas bleed valve on top
Circulation pump: Ehiem / Compact marine+ (adjustable flow 800-2400l/h)
Feed Pump: MaxiJet 1200
ORP Controller: Milwaukee SMS125 PH & ORP controller (apparently discontinued)
Pinch Valve: Bio-Chem Valve 100P2NC12-05S
Pre Filter: 10" canister filter with 20micron cartridge
CaribSea LSM: 1 gallon (roughly based on djfrankie - gallons x .006 = liters of LSM)
Seachem Matrix Bio media: 8 ltrs (no fancy math, just enough to fill reactor to top)
CaribSea ARM: 2 gallons (no fancy math, just enough to fill reactor to top)
Lots of PVC fittings and pipe

REACTOR #1
- 1gallon (3.75ltr) CaribSea LSM sandwiched between screens with some Sechem Matrix bio media sandwiched between some Matala matt on top just to take up space and to prevent fluidization of sulfur media. No other reason than just to take up space.

- output of Reactor #1 connected to bottom input of Reactor #2

- Lid holds ORP probe (interchangeable lid could be moved to any other reactor)


REACTOR #2
- Eight(8) ltrs of SeaChem Matrix bio media (less the little bit in top of reactor #1)
- Added a screen and Matala matt on top just to take up space and to prevent fluidization of Sea Chem Bio Media.

- Output of Reactor #2 connected to bottom input of Reactor #3

REACTOR #3
- Reactor #3 Two(2) gallons of CaribSea ARM
- Output of Reactor #3 connected to recirculation pump an Ehiem / Compact marine+ (adjustable flow) and then connected to bottom input of Reactor #1

EFFLUENT OUTPUT x two(2)

- Coming out the top of Reator #3 is effluent drip/flow Output #1, it's manually adjusted with micro ball valve.

- Effluent drip/flow Output #2 is controlled via Milwaukee SMS125 PH & ORP controller that will energize a NC pinch valve. If/when ORP reaches too low > -180 the pinch valve will open and allow additional flow into the reactors. I could also place a micro ball valve on this output as well so that the increased input flow is also adjustable. Thus making the reactor ORP environment adjustment/change very slow.

If I've manually adjusted reactor input flow optimally (via output #1 ball valve) and ORP never reaches a critical level the pinch valve will never open. I added this because bad stuff always happens at 3am or when you're out of town.

Input Feed
After the drip/flow output ports #1 & #2 and before the recirc. pump is the aquarium water input feed via the MaxiJet 1200. I first passed the feed water through a 10" canister filter housing fitted with 20micron filter cartridge, I'm doing this just to keep crap from building up in reactors. Might do away with it if it doesn't help keep it clean, or it's just a stupid idea.


Treatment cylinder for effluent output

The final section of my sump is 23" deep. In an effort to raise the pH level and get rid of any N2S & CO2 gas out of the effluent I assembled a 22" piece 6" of PVC pipe with a cap cemented on the bottom to seal it. I cemented lengthwise a 24" piece of 1/2" PVC pipe with an elbow on the bottom to the inside of the 6" PVC pipe. (I'll drip the effluent down this 1/2" pipe.)

About 1" from the top, on the opposite side I drilled a hole and cemented a short piece of 1/2" PVC for the conditioned effluent to drip out and into the sump. I could also drip my calcium reactor effluent into it to treat it as well.

In the bottom of the 6" PVC pipe I built a little stand out of ½" pvc pipe with a round piece of egg crate and screen sitting on the top of the stand. I then fed an airline down to an air stone sitting under the stand and then filled the thing with 1 gallon of ARM. I'm using a Hiblow air pump to pump the air into the treatment cylinder.

The idea is for the sulfur reactor effluent to enter the bottom via ½" PVC pipe of the treatment cylinder and be pulled up by the bubbles thought the ARM to help raise the pH, expel and CO2 and re-oxygenate the low oxygen effluent before entering the sump. Sounded good, lol.


Test supply water
I was just too nervous to connect this thing up to a live system so I went with a test tank filled with 15 gallons of water taken from my live system. 10 gallons of the 15 gallons would be replaced every day to maintain the high NO3 levels fed into the reactors.

- NO3 75ppm, PH 8.0, Heated to 80

I initially seeded test water with several drops of ZEObak microorganism solution. (a lot more than product recommends) I did not add ZEObak to any of the subsequent replacement water I changed daily.


Next, we'll start this thing up"¦

Can not find in the Korallen -Zucht documentation which strains of bacteria it contains.



Without adding anything a sulfur denitrator is active within 24 h and fully cured after +- 12 days.
To be able to follow the process no water should be changed. Within 24 h nitrate will start to decrease and nitrite will build up. This will continue for about 8 to 10 days. Than nitrite will decrease very fast and nitrogen gas production will be noticeable. Within 2 +-days most nitrite will be reduced. The reactor is cured. This at a continues flow. The reactor is ready. To test the reactor the water can be changed and it will show that nitrate will descend and only a bit of nitrite will be produced. After +- 2 days no nitrite will be present while nitrate is still decending.
As this process is fast enough why adding additives?
The recirculation flow is very high.

The function of the matrix is still not clear for me as it is supposed to be a sulfurdenitrator. What is the reason for using matrix instead of sulphur?

What is the desired nitrate level which is intended to be reached?
As the reactor is not connected to the main system the daily increase of nitrate ( production) can be determined easily. The desired level and the daily production to remove are the two essential factors one has to know for determining the amount of sulphur needed. Max daily flow x nitrate level of the incoming water = max daily nitrate removal rate.

 

[CHSUB]

Why ORP control?

it has become somewhat tiresome posting over and over, so maybe I will try another approach?

no3 @ .2 ppm with 21 well fed fish in mixed reef: hippo tang, purple tang, choc tang, 2 yellow tangs, betta, purple tilefish, foxface, 4 lyretails, coris wrasse, 3 chromis, 2 skunk clowns, flame hawk, flame angel, black blenny.

http://[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/image.jpg1_zps8vfly4m0.jpg.html][/URL]

sps' growth and color, great.....why NOT ORP controlled?

http://[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/image.jpg2_zpsew5zpvht.jpg.html][/URL]

 

[canada55]

Special Note:
12hours into Week 2 Day 8
ORP "“ 291 / getting scary
Water in reactors and supply tank very cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Increase flow through reactors for about an hour brought ORP down to "“130
Decrease flow back down to about 2-3 drop per second
Small gas bubbles starting to form on inside of reactor tops.

Week 2
Day 8
NO3 2 (WHAM!! major reduction in NO3)
OPR -169
pH 7.4 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
Flow through / output adjusted to 3 drop per second
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Lowered recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
Slight gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank slightly cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 5gal of 10gal. supply water and
Increased supply water volume from 10gal to 15gal

Day 9
NO3 0 (WHAM!! major reduction in NO3)
pH 7.4 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
ORP -125
Flow through / output adjusted to steady uncountable drip/stream
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
Slight more gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank slightly cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 15gal supply water



Day 10
NO3 >0 < 2
pH (did not test)
OPR "“ 108
Flow through / output held to steady uncountable drip/stream (no adjustment)
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Output measured 1ltr every 5.46 mins (or 263lts every 24hrs)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
lot more gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank slightly cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 15gal supply water




Day 11
NO3 0
pH 7.4 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
ORP "“185
Flow through / output increased to steady uncountable stream.
ORP expected to rise with increase of output.
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Increase in flow is probably a lot more than I should, but we'll give 2-3 days and see what happens.
Output measured @ 1ltr every 2.28 mins (or 631lts every 24hrs)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
lot more gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 15gal supply water and increased/added another 5gal to supply
now 20gal.
NO bad sulfur smell
Setup output effluent treatment cylinder in supply tank to try and raise effluent pH.


Day 12
NO3 10 "“ with the major increase in flow 24hrs earlier I would have been surprised if it was any lower.
pH 7.7 Improve using Effluent treatment cylinder implemented now for 24hrs
ORP "“39 increase in flow bringing in more O2 (dropping but VERY slowly)
Flow through / output = held at a steady uncountable stream. (no changes made)
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Output measured @ 1ltr every 2.28 mins (or 631lts every 24hrs)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
Very little gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank little less cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 20gal supply water
Other than water change no adjustment made "“ Leave it alone!






Day 13
No3 10 Holding no change
pH 7.7 Holding no change Effluent treatment cylinder implemented now for 48hrs
ORP "“ 40 Holding no change
Flow through / output = held at a steady uncountable stream. (no changes made)
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Output measured @ 1ltr every 2.28 mins (or 631lts every 24hrs)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
Very little to no gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank little less cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 20gal supply water
Other than water change no adjustment made "“ Leave it alone!


Day 14
No3 10 Holding no change
pH 7.7 Holding no change Effluent treatment cylinder implemented now for 48hrs
ORP "“ 40 Holding no change
Flow through / output = held at a steady uncountable stream. (going to reduce output, must be too high too soon)
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Output measured @ 1ltr every 2.28 mins (or 631lts every 24hrs)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
Very little to no gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank little less cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 20gal supply water
Other than water change no adjustment made "“ Leave it alone!

Changes on Day 14
No positive changes noted, going to reduce output to 1ltr every 3.26mins (441ltrs every 24hrs) still impressive, that's roughly 115 gallons every 24hrs

 

[canada55]

it has become somewhat tiresome posting over and over, so maybe I will try another approach?

no3 @ .2 ppm with 21 well fed fish in mixed reef: hippo tang, purple tang, choc tang, 2 yellow tangs, betta, purple tilefish, foxface, 4 lyretails, coris wrasse, 3 chromis, 2 skunk clowns, flame hawk, flame angel, black blenny.

http://[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/image.jpg1_zps8vfly4m0.jpg.html][/URL]

sps' growth and color, great.....why NOT ORP controlled?


http://[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/image.jpg2_zpsew5zpvht.jpg.html][/URL]

Obviously your doing something right! your picture is worth a thousands words..
..
.
.

 

[CHSUB]

Obviously your doing something right! your picture is worth a thousands words..
..
.
.

thanks!!!

i believe keeping pH above 7.0 can have a very positive effect (ie. increased flow). your 3nd chamber in the recirculating loop imo makes this possible. this is a benefit of adding aragonite in with sulfur, i think. my reactor lacks this, the effluent does pass through an aragonite reactor, but it's not recirculated. i'm going to test pH on my setup and see. i would guess that if my pH is lower than yours, your reactor will ultimately preform better than mine?

 

[CHSUB]

Obviously your doing something right! your picture is worth a thousands words..
..
.
.

reviewed your more descriptive post of the design of your reactor....very impressed!!!! the reason i resisted using aragonite was the need to open the reactor to add more aragonite occasionally, your design may solve this problem? also if you decide to run reactors 1 and 2 with sulfur, one reactor could be cleaned each year, never having to reseed/restart the system. I believe my reactor will need a cleaning at some point and a reseeding; your design could run indefinitely? i have thought about these 2 issues over the last year, your system may have solved them?

One change you might consider, on reactor #3, if output #1 were placed on the degasing valve this might allow gas to escape with the effluent, only if the recirculating pump is strong enough to push the N2 through reactors 1 and 2, however? I would also consider output #2's flow as a regular part of the operation, and not just in emergency! You might consider stopping bio-pellets, when i stopped carbon dosing may sulfur reactor preformence improved, however, not sure why? i'm very excited about your design, keep it going!!!

 

[dartier]

New Clear Reactor Control Protocols

New Clear Reactor Control Protocols

I am finally having some success with my little test reactor. It took awhile to debug various issues. I had to add foam pads to constrain the sulfur, otherwise it was just too easy to fluidize it. I also found that the exit port for my effluent outflow was too short, without enough headroom to allow the collected gas to accumulate without causing the closed loop pump cavitation, so I added a 6 inch extension to that tee, which fixed that issue. I also swapped the port my ORP probe and feed line were using so that the ORP probe was horizontal. The thinking was that the vertical tee allowed gas to accumulate near the probe. I also removed the second canister containing ARM because the low flow rates I am using was just to easy to create hydrogen sulfide with it in series.

Before I go into the details of my observations, I just want to stress that this reactor is for testing. It is way too small for a tank my size, with 80 ppm of NO3 present. No need to ... :deadhorse: ... and yes, the title is a pun.

Ok, with that out of the way, I want to share my results and observations. I have lots of graphs!! Which is quite a feat considering my ORP probe is hooked to a non-networked controller (E.g. plain old PH/ORP controller), so no logging capability in the ORP/PH controller.

This first graph is using the set point of the ORP controller to energize a DC2000 pump when the ORP hits -210mv. I started graphing this when I noticed that the ORP seemed to be moving in odd ways, going up when i thought it should be going down, and I was never quite sure how far through a cycle the current batch was. Oh, needless to say this is operating in batch mode. Not practical for production use, but perfect for testing and control modelling.

Although I don't have a time scale expressed, those 3 test runs took about 12 hours cumulative. This was still running in my test barrel at this point, and the water being fed in was about 20 PPM NO3. When I measured the water flow being fed in, it was about 250ML of water for each batch (cycle).

What piqued my curiosity was the rise in ORP just before it plummeted back to low mv readings. My ORP would flatline at about -110mv, then creep back up to around -100, and plunge. I think I found the answer in Randy's article on ORP. He mentions that ORP moves counter to PH, with ORP moving -59mv for every PH unit increase. So this slight bump is the PH going down, just before the big ORP plunge.

While researching the ORP hump, I read the following article http://www.chempap.org/file_access.php?file=531a75.pdf. This had some significance in later tests.

With those results under my belt, I decided to move the actual test reactor to the tank to see how it would differ with feed water that was way more oxygenated and with 80PPM of NO3 present. The next graph shows the first run hooked to the tank (along with the previous offline ones).

This test run took about 12 hours to complete the one cycle, and the hump is quite pronounced and longer. The flat line portion was also really long ( 2-3 hours of just hanging at -110mv). This test was being fed with water with 80PPM of NO3 instead of 20PPM like the previous ones, and it took 3 times as long to process the nitrate down to zero.

I did not measure the amount of new water being fed in for this run, but I quickly came to the conclusion that I needed a better way of feeding precise amounts of fresh water into the reactor. I removed the DC2000 and hooked up the fed port to one of my stepper based dosing pumps. This particular pump can dose as little as 0.05ML (1 drop), or as much as 50ML in 60 seconds. The challenge was how to get feedback from the controller to my dosing computer, since the controller's only output is the ability to energize a 110V socket. I used a 5V wall wart plugged into the controller's socket to drive a 3.3V power supply to drive a pin on my GPIO port. This allowed me to write scripts that can react to the set point on the controller being tripped and then dose varying patterns taking into account time of on/off period, etc.

Before I show the graph with various dosing techniques applied, if you read the article about PH / ORP controlled denitrification, please keep the following line in mind from the article.

One of the possibilities to use the ORP for regulation is based on the fact that the ORP value is decreasing during the denitrification process, while after its completion the ORP record shows a break and the decrease rate speeds up.

Here is the graph.

After seeing the new graphs, I noticed the same pattern that was present in the graphs from the ORP/PH article, and then while comparing the rate of descent in my recorded values, the knee/break did correspond to a tripling of the rate of ORP descent at that point.

The premise here is that the graphs are showing the point where denitrification has completed, and no nitrate remains. I tested this hypothesis by measuring the effluent of the reactor when it was refilling and it measure 0 for both nitrate and nitrite. Although the water being fed in is 80PPM, the reactor is only being fed a portion of its volume at the start of a batch, so the 80 PPM would be diluted, but still important that the effluent is free of NO3.

My next steps will to build a bigger reactor using 4" PVC reactor with 2 matching towers. One for sulfur media, and the second for ARM (coarse this time). The 2 reactors will be in series like canada55 did (closed loop through both) so that I can have the buffering ability and still be able to test low flow rates. This will accommodate a lot more sulfur media than I can fit now. I also plan to have a minimum of 6 ports that can be used for inflow/probes/etc. This will allow me to test drip, fed, drip/fed, and multiple ORP/PH probes at the same time. I will use a top based effluent port similar to my current design so that it auto purges the nitrogen.

I may use the existing ORP controller as a fail safe to trigger on really low ORP readings and engage a pump, while the normal use case control would be under the control of my scripts.

I also want to replace my ORP probe with a ReefAngel version so that I can hang it off my RPI/BBB so that my controller scripts can react to the ORP at all points in the cycle, not just when the set point is tripped. This will also give me data logging (Yeah!!! ... finally).

That is the news so far. Having lots of fun with this project.

Dennis

 

[CHSUB]

That is the news so far. Having lots of fun with this project.

Dennis

excellent write up, keep us up to date on the new, larger reactor. if room is not an issue, consider doing 2 stages with sulfur and a third with ARM. i think this could allow the system to run forever. i may have to clean mine soon, which would mean starting over?:sad2:

 

[Belgian Anthias]

thanks!!!

i believe keeping pH above 7.0 can have a very positive effect (ie. increased flow). your 3nd chamber in the recirculating loop imo makes this possible. this is a benefit of adding aragonite in with sulfur, i think. my reactor lacks this, the effluent does pass through an aragonite reactor, but it's not recirculated. i'm going to test pH on my setup and see. i would guess that if my pH is lower than yours, your reactor will ultimately preform better than mine?

As the denitrification process on sulphur is Alkaline and PH limited keeping a PH above 7 is a wise thing to do when a high nitrate level must be reduced and 0 nitrate in the effluent is the aim. This can easily be done by plumbing in the possibility for the calcium reactor to be fed by the recirculation pump. Mixing the sulphur with the calcium media is not a good idea and certainly not aragonite because it will clog together after a short time of use. ( oyster shell has proven to be a lot better for that use.) A separate reactor is better for easy cleaning. ( a sulphur reactor must normally not be opened more than once a year.)
When the calciumreactor is put in the re-circulation circuit it probably will NOT hold back any sulphate and/or nitrite any more!
Once the Level has descended to a lower level, PH will not drop below 7 any more in the sulphur-reactor because only the daily nitrate production has to be removed, less H+ and CO2 production and the denitration system is operated at high flow which is +- the total volume of the system /day. (When the reactor is big enough, depending of the daily nitrate production and the desired nitrate level)
In a BADESS ph never drops below Ph7 and alkalinity stays within limits because also at high nitrate levels only a bit more than the daily nitrate production is removed daily for reducing the nitrate level. It will take longer to reach the desired level but a BADESS will continue to reduce the level until the desired level is reached without having to make any corrections. When the desired level is reached, the effluent will have 0 Nitrate

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Special Note:
12hours into Week 2 Day 8
ORP "“ 291 / getting scary
Water in reactors and supply tank very cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Increase flow through reactors for about an hour brought ORP down to "“130
Decrease flow back down to about 2-3 drop per second
Small gas bubbles starting to form on inside of reactor tops.

Week 2
Day 8
NO3 2 (WHAM!! major reduction in NO3)
OPR -169
pH 7.4 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
Flow through / output adjusted to 3 drop per second
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Lowered recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
Slight gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank slightly cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 5gal of 10gal. supply water and
Increased supply water volume from 10gal to 15gal

Day 9
NO3 0 (WHAM!! major reduction in NO3)
pH 7.4 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
ORP -125
Flow through / output adjusted to steady uncountable drip/stream
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
Slight more gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank slightly cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 15gal supply water



Day 10
NO3 >0 < 2
pH (did not test)
OPR "“ 108
Flow through / output held to steady uncountable drip/stream (no adjustment)
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Output measured 1ltr every 5.46 mins (or 263lts every 24hrs)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
lot more gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank slightly cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 15gal supply water




Day 11
NO3 0
pH 7.4 (Effluent treatment cylinder not yet implemented)
ORP "“185
Flow through / output increased to steady uncountable stream.
ORP expected to rise with increase of output.
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Increase in flow is probably a lot more than I should, but we'll give 2-3 days and see what happens.
Output measured @ 1ltr every 2.28 mins (or 631lts every 24hrs)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
lot more gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 15gal supply water and increased/added another 5gal to supply
now 20gal.
NO bad sulfur smell
Setup output effluent treatment cylinder in supply tank to try and raise effluent pH.


Day 12
NO3 10 "“ with the major increase in flow 24hrs earlier I would have been surprised if it was any lower.
pH 7.7 Improve using Effluent treatment cylinder implemented now for 24hrs
ORP "“39 increase in flow bringing in more O2 (dropping but VERY slowly)
Flow through / output = held at a steady uncountable stream. (no changes made)
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Output measured @ 1ltr every 2.28 mins (or 631lts every 24hrs)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
Very little gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank little less cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 20gal supply water
Other than water change no adjustment made "“ Leave it alone!






Day 13
No3 10 Holding no change
pH 7.7 Holding no change Effluent treatment cylinder implemented now for 48hrs
ORP "“ 40 Holding no change
Flow through / output = held at a steady uncountable stream. (no changes made)
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Output measured @ 1ltr every 2.28 mins (or 631lts every 24hrs)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
Very little to no gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank little less cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 20gal supply water
Other than water change no adjustment made "“ Leave it alone!


Day 14
No3 10 Holding no change
pH 7.7 Holding no change Effluent treatment cylinder implemented now for 48hrs
ORP "“ 40 Holding no change
Flow through / output = held at a steady uncountable stream. (going to reduce output, must be too high too soon)
Output #2 not being used (yet)
Output measured @ 1ltr every 2.28 mins (or 631lts every 24hrs)
Recirculation pump set at roughly 1800l/h
Very little to no gas formation
Water in reactors and supply tank little less cloudy "“ Bacterial bloom
Replaced 10gal of 20gal supply water
Other than water change no adjustment made "“ Leave it alone!

Changes on Day 14
No positive changes noted, going to reduce output to 1ltr every 3.26mins (441ltrs every 24hrs) still impressive, that's roughly 115 gallons every 24hrs

These are normal results except for the bacterial bloom! I think this must come due to the sudden nitrate level changes.
Is there nitrite present in the effluent water?
Flow corrections must be made slowly certainly when reducing the flow. less oxygen and less nitrate is entered. Reduce the flow till the effluent has reached 0 again and than increase the flow a bit. Keep the flow as high as possible.
The flow depends of the nitrate level in the system water. When the nitrate level is increased or decreased suddenly by water changes the reactor will not be able to follow without adapting the flow to the nitrate level
A sulphur reactor needs a constant supply of nitrate to be able to function properly and to become self-regulating.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

it has become somewhat tiresome posting over and over, so maybe I will try another approach?

no3 @ .2 ppm with 21 well fed fish in mixed reef: hippo tang, purple tang, choc tang, 2 yellow tangs, betta, purple tilefish, foxface, 4 lyretails, coris wrasse, 3 chromis, 2 skunk clowns, flame hawk, flame angel, black blenny.

http://[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/image.jpg1_zps8vfly4m0.jpg.html][/URL]

sps' growth and color, great.....why NOT ORP controlled?

http://[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/image.jpg2_zpsew5zpvht.jpg.html][/URL]

Very nice!

The aquarium system is a low nutrient system and only a very small amount of nitrate has to be removed daily. ( 20 days to pass the systems volume true the reactor as I remember). it was difficult to keep the level steady despite the very small nitrate production.
The de-nitrator removes very little and is expensive and complicated but it proves to work fine for you. So, why not?


A BADESS is used as a medium or high nutrient aquarium systems for keeping very low nitrate levels at a daily nitrate input till +-2 ppm daily. The total aqurium system volume is passed with a continues flow true the reactors once or twice a day, every day.
Would I recommend a BADESS for your system? No, because a BADESS would not work fine for your aquarium system!

Nice display!

 

[dartier]

excellent write up, keep us up to date on the new, larger reactor. if room is not an issue, consider doing 2 stages with sulfur and a third with ARM. i think this could allow the system to run forever. i may have to clean mine soon, which would mean starting over?:sad2:

3 stages would have been something to consider, but even getting 2 done takes up a fair bit of room. Perhaps I can add a 3" stage for ARM at some point and use both the existing ones for sulfur.

Here are the photos of how it turned out taken during leak testing.

The closed loop will be driven by a DC2000. The unusual plumbing arrangement is so that the closed loop can sit in the sump while the reactors sit outside along the front. The Jebao pumps are not considered to be safe to use externally, though this one seems to be water tight so far.

I included *a lot* of 1/2" ports this time so I can use as many probes, feeds, etc. on whichever side of the closed loop I want.

I added a flow sensor so that I can tell how much flow the closed loop is actually doing. This way I can tell when the pump's flow is set too high, or if the sponges are getting clogged, or the pump needs cleaning, etc. I was always wondering if my existing reactor was getting enough flow due to back pressure, too much flow, etc. This should remove the uncertainty.

I also used lots of unions so that I can rotate the pipes to any angle for accommodating tight spaces in the sump (for the probe bodies), or for disassembly and cleaning.

I am not sure yet, but I "think" I should be able to disconnect the ARM cannister without exposing the sulfur reactor to air by closing the valve between the reactors, loosening the ARM side of the union, draining the ARM canister and then removing it by using the unions. I will be using a check valve on the top of the sulfur reactor, so the theory is that the vacuum pressure should stop the water from draining through the open side (of the closed loop) as long as I have all air bleeds/valves closed in the plumbing along the closed loop. We shall see if I am right.

The leak test went well with only 2 leaks. One was a plug in a 1/2" port that was not tight enough, and the second was from the flow sensor as the threads are a loose fit. I added some more Teflon tape to the flow sensor and am redoing the lead test. No guarantees about how leak proof it will be once under pressure though.

I hope to get it online this weekend.

Dennis

 

[fio1022]

Sorry if this was asked, I can't find it.
I'm in the process of collecting the materials for the original build.
What is the reason for using cpvc pipe and not regular pvc for the pipe connecting pump to main body?