DIY Sulfur Denitrator

[tmz]

Aragonite is the calcium carbonate in mollusk shells and other biologically formed calcareous material. What do you think they are made of? When you use oyster shells you are using aragonite.

PH monitoring will tell you the pH if your probe is in good order. PH is not a direct indicator denitrification reactions .
Nitrate reduction does not decrease pH in any direct way or increase it. There are plenty of tanks with high NO3 and high pH and vice versa.
Anaerobic dentirfication removes H+ and adds water , CO2 or ammonia. There is no H in NO3.
The reactor is not a closed environment it is part of the system to which it is attached. The ORP reactions are as vast as in seawater/ tank water; virtually innumerable.

The natural way is a lot more complex than you seem to understand. ORP is always in flux . Nitrate, oxygen and sulfate are only a small part of a very complex measure.

You may want to dismiss the ORP control efforts of others but that's not my issue, I'm interested in the anecdotal information .


My concerns with your posts are about misstated realtionshiops between ORP/ pH /and nitrate reduction and have nothing to do with ORP control on a sulfur denitrator for better or worse

I'm not sure whether optimal ORP levels as a control to establish a window between aerobic activity, anaerobic nitrate reduction and anoxia are discernible or practical but they may be. The anecdotal accounts of those using orp control could provide more information on this technique . In any case controlling the free oxygen availability without dipping into an anoxic level sans NO3 is more directly related to encouraging anaerobic nitrate reduction than oblique unrelated pH measures

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Aragonite is the calcium carbonate in mollusk shells and other biologically formed calcareous material. What do you think they are made of? When you use oyster shells you are using aragonite.

the mineral calcite?

PH monitoring will tell you the pH if your probe is in good order. PH is not a direct indicator denitrification reactions .
Nitrate reduction does not decrease pH in any direct way or increase it. There are plenty of tanks with high NO3 and high pH and vice versa.
Anaerobic dentirfication removes H+ and adds water , CO2 or ammonia. There is no H in NO3.
True! Obvious!
The reactor is not a closed environment it is part of the system to which it is attached. The ORP reactions are as vast as in seawater/ tank water; virtually innumerable.

Orp measured In a closed reactor or the effluent of the reactor in an open recipient will give a complete different result. I think!

The natural way is a lot more complex than you seem to understand. ORP is always in flux . Nitrate, oxygen and sulfate are only a small part of a very complex measure.

You may want to dismiss the ORP control efforts of others but that's not my issue, I'm interested in the anecdotal information .

Certainly not! Try to Find a reason why it should be used to manage a sulphur denitrator.


My concerns with your posts are about misstated realtionshiops between ORP/ pH /and nitrate reduction and have nothing to do with ORP control on a sulfur denitrator for better or worse

Relationships? Why using ORP for managing a sulphur denitrator?

I'm not sure whether optimal ORP levels as a control to establish a window between aerobic activity, anaerobic nitrate reduction and anoxia are discernible or practical but they may be. The anecdotal accounts of those using orp control could provide more information on this technique . In any case controlling the free oxygen availability without dipping into an anoxic level sans NO3 is more directly related to encouraging anaerobic nitrate reduction than oblique unrelated pH measures

Please define the windows aerobic , anoxic and anaerobic in ORP mv in a seawater aquarium. Orp may be O with 3ppm DO and with 1ppm DO. ORP will not prevent sulphate reduction at low nitrate levels in anoxic conditions. Why using it?

PH tells me if a lot of H+ is produced or not!

 

[tmz]

the mineral calcite?

It seems we have a defintion issue. To be clear aragonite includes carbonate and calcite:


"...Aragonite is a carbonate mineral, one of the two common, naturally occurring, crystal forms of calcium carbonate, CaCO₃ (the other form being the mineral calcite). It is formed by biological and physical processes, including precipitation from marine and freshwater environments...." see wikipedia.

Some mollusks may have relatively high proportions of calcite to calcium carbonate vs coral skeletal mass, etc. I'm not sure about oysters per se. Perhaps frewshwater oysters would.
However, calcite is harder to dissolve requiring mild acidity vs calcium carbonate which dissolves in basic conditions as high as 7.7 pH. So, it seems to me calcium carbonate would be easier to use in terms of providing alkalinity and any consequent pH effect.

 

[tmz]

Orp measured In a closed reactor or the effluent of the reactor in an open recipient will give a complete different result. I think!


Probably ,since there is restricted flow just like other areas of the aqurium where hypoxic or anaeoic conditions occur . Nonetheless, these areas are not closed and are influenced by ORP flux related to a myriad of reactions in the tank and in the enviroment of the reactorwhich would influence ORP and pH.

 

[tmz]

Please define the windows aerobic , anoxic and anaerobic in ORP mv in a seawater aquarium. Orp may be O with 3ppm DO and with 1ppm DO. ORP will not prevent sulphate reduction at low nitrate levels in anoxic conditions. Why using it?

I don't use it. I think the folks trying it are atempting to discern optimal mv levels for anaerobic nitrate reduction in their aqruariums which inlcude sulfur dentirators.

 

[H20ENG]

Nice work! Could you please expand on your flow sensor? Model # and how you are viewing the reading? Thanks!

 

[dartier]

Nice work! Could you please expand on your flow sensor? Model # and how you are viewing the reading? Thanks!

I think you are referring to he flow sensor I included in my larger reactor? Unfortunately I have not put the new reactor into service at this point as I am moving in 2 weeks and will be dismantling my tank for the move.

I used the 1/2" version from my local DIY supplier. You can see the 3 sizes that are offered (1/4", 1/2", 3/4") here http://www.canadarobotix.com/index.php?route=product/search&search=flow. These are for sale pretty much everywhere. EBay has lots of vendors selling the same units.

There is a ZIP file on the product page (of the site linked) that contains an Arduino sketch that gives you the basics on reading the sensor. To calculate the flow, you monitor the duty cycle of the sensor pulse on a pin, and multiply by a constant depending on the size of the sensor.

One think to note, is that the threads are not NPT, so they have no taper. Trying to seal in a PVC fitting with Teflon tape is futile (as I found out). I would suggest you trying something more robust like silicone in the thread to make a water tight seal.

Dennis

 

[Ontheway]

Sulfur reactor without sulfur

Sulfur reactor without sulfur

Wonder if anyone tested a reactor system without any sulphur but other type of bacteria colonising media, like siporax etc., along with initial some (liquid) carbon dosing, for cranking.

 

[govertical19]

So I have read like 20 pages of the original thread and I am really really interested in trying it. I have tried just about everything there is I feel. I got a couple questions that I didn't see in the first 20 or so pages.

1 is this a method that you would still need a skimmer or do people find that there is less of a need for a skimmer? I know some people with turf scrubbers say they can take them off line. And with pellets you almost seems like it is the most important thing in the world.


2 with this method is there less likely to have cyano problems? Pellets I had a pretty good break out and I have started a couple months ago with natureef and seems like cyano is coming back.

I wanthink a method I don't have to refill and just little adjustments here and there and this sounds like it would be the best method?

 

[CHSUB]

So I have read like 20 pages of the original thread and I am really really interested in trying it. I have tried just about everything there is I feel. I got a couple questions that I didn't see in the first 20 or so pages.

1 is this a method that you would still need a skimmer or do people find that there is less of a need for a skimmer? I know some people with turf scrubbers say they can take them off line. And with pellets you almost seems like it is the most important thing in the world.


2 with this method is there less likely to have cyano problems? Pellets I had a pretty good break out and I have started a couple months ago with natureef and seems like cyano is coming back.

I wanthink a method I don't have to refill and just little adjustments here and there and this sounds like it would be the best method?

i still run a skimmer and believe it helps maintain a health reef tank, however one could still get good results without one. Although, i would never remove it because i added a sulfur reactor.

not sure of any connection with cyano, i do have some in my fug, but none in dt. on rare occasions, i have some pop up in the dt, but it is easily removed.

you are using a Natureef denitrator now? is this a methanol (nitrategone) denitrator? i used one in the early 2000 for several years and yes i had terrible cyano, however, it worked at reducing no3.

i believe sulfur reactors are the best method for reducing no3 in heavily stocked reef tanks!

 

[tmz]

The sulfur dentitrator doesn't remove much phosphate so it won't likely have much effect on cyano like a a macroalge fuge ,scrubber , organic carbon dosing or gfo will. Most strains of cyano produce their own fixed nitrogen so removing the nitrate might not effect a cyano problem much.

A skimmer removes organic materials which include :some nitrogen, organic carbon and phosphate. A skimmer also provides significant aeration; a sulfur denitrator doesn't do those things but does a great job reducing nitrate,IME.

 

[canada55]

So I have read like 20 pages of the original thread and I am really really interested in trying it. I have tried just about everything there is I feel. I got a couple questions that I didn't see in the first 20 or so pages.

1 is this a method that you would still need a skimmer or do people find that there is less of a need for a skimmer? I know some people with turf scrubbers say they can take them off line. And with pellets you almost seems like it is the most important thing in the world.


2 with this method is there less likely to have cyano problems? Pellets I had a pretty good break out and I have started a couple months ago with natureef and seems like cyano is coming back.

I wanthink a method I don't have to refill and just little adjustments here and there and this sounds like it would be the best method?

Go for it,,, I had a real problem keeping my nitrate down for "years" it was not until the sulfur denitrator that I finally broke the nitrate problem... I was and still am also running two huge skimmers, bio-pellet and algae scrubber and tripled my clean up crew...yes and water changes too. Still got a phos problem...

 

[govertical19]

i still run a skimmer and believe it helps maintain a health reef tank, however one could still get good results without one. Although, i would never remove it because i added a sulfur reactor.

not sure of any connection with cyano, i do have some in my fug, but none in dt. on rare occasions, i have some pop up in the dt, but it is easily removed.

you are using a Natureef denitrator now? is this a methanol (nitrategone) denitrator? i used one in the early 2000 for several years and yes i had terrible cyano, however, it worked at reducing no3.

i believe sulfur reactors are the best method for reducing no3 in heavily stocked reef tanks!

Yes it is nitrategone. And it does work no doubt! But I just got some bigger fish so I think I will have to add a cycle to the program. I also seem to be getting some cyano not sure if it is from that but I have my suspicions.. it does work I I probably could hook it up to the skimmer input but every time it start the skimmer stops skimming..


Anyway this does sound like a really good method for no3 reduction! It sounds like maybe the worst thing could be the alk and phil lowering effect?

I have a nextreef reactor I am think converting or just gonna go by some 4 inch pvc. I ordered some skimz sulfur from brs.


I read a couple different methods. Do most drip back into the tank at first or into a separate bucket at first?

 

[govertical19]

Does this system feed food in anyway to coral like biopellets?

 

[tmz]

No; there isn't any organic carbon involved.

The alkalinity consumption is easy to manage with dosing.

I dripped mine into a bucket for the first week or so.

 

[rclendan]

Belgian

Just want to clear something up... You keep referring to Nitrate as "food", suggesting that ORP based flow control starves T. denitrificans to death when NO3 is low. The fact is that the denitrifying bacteria aren't so much eating nitrate as they are breathing it (as obligate chemolithoautotrophs, they do eat a little inorganic nitrogen, but our reactors work primarily due to T. denitrificans respiration). When available, they are perfectly happy using oxygen to operate their respiratory chains, so they simply switch to O2, but they will use nitrate (in the presence of sulfur) when O2 is low. They don't starve or die in oxygen, they just have flexible bio-energetics and will use whatever respiratory electron receptor that is available.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Belgian

Just want to clear something up... You keep referring to Nitrate as "food", suggesting that ORP based flow control starves T. denitrificans to death when NO3 is low. The fact is that the denitrifying bacteria aren't so much eating nitrate as they are breathing it (as obligate chemolithoautotrophs, they do eat a little inorganic nitrogen, but our reactors work primarily due to T. denitrificans respiration). When available, they are perfectly happy using oxygen to operate their respiratory chains, so they simply switch to O2, but they will use nitrate (in the presence of sulfur) when O2 is low. They don't starve or die in oxygen, they just have flexible bio-energetics and will use whatever respiratory electron receptor that is available.

The sulfur bacteria use sulphur, that is why elemental sulphur is provided as a substrate. Only +- 45% of the biofilm on elemental sulphur consists of the T. denitrificans family when the reactor is kept annoxic ( DO below 0.5 ppm). When oxygen is provided they will be outcompeted by the other 55% of the biofilm. They are part of the bottom layer of the biofilm as close as possible to the substrate where most of DO is consumed by the outer layers. They depend mostly on the nitrate that reaches the inner layer for there respiration. When the nitrate is limited they will stop growing and/or starve. ( they will NOT start to reduce sulphate because not enough energy) The bacteria are nitrate dependable to survive in there environment where oxygen is limited available. They DO NOT FEED on nitrate. +- 40% of the bio-film is occupied transforming the organic biomass which comes available producing H2S which is transformed back to S or sulphate. Everything is recycled within the bio-film. The bio-film is a complex factory which is constantly renewed. Time must be given for the bio-film to develop.( +- 12 days for steady nitrate reduction, +- 4 weeks to be able to control the nitrate level)
Because of the structure of the bio-film a BADES system can be managed easily and nitrate removal rate controlled by the flow . The system is not very sensitive to flow (DO) changes for nitrate removal.
In lab tests T.denitrificans starts to oxidise the sulphur without reducing nitrate producing sulphate when DO is increased but that is because DO is mostly removed by vacuum and not by bacteria and the biofilm has no or a very limited oxygen consuming outer layer. This makes the nitrate removal very sensitive to DO changes. What happens with the biofilm when the flow is restricted by ORP to keep the reactor annoxic ( below 0.5ppm DO)? Some keep the reactor at ORP - 150mv - 200mv. The result is a very limited nitrate removal rate which is not or very difficult to manage.
In a BADESS probably only +- 1/8 of the bio-film will be from the T. denitrificans family, (depending of the daily nitrate production)
When the nitrate level is kept at 0.5ppm the total volume of the system has to pass the reactor twice a day to remove a daily nitrate production of 1ppm. The water contains +- 6ppm DO! When ORP is limiting the flow how this quantity of oxygen can be removed while enough nitrate must be entered to be able to remove the daily production?
A 1% reactor will easily remove 1ppm daily and keep the level at 1ppm.

 

[tmz]

T. nitrificans is facultative as most denitrifying bacteria are . They thrive with free oxygen and when it's not avaialbe go for the oxygen from nitrate. They do not starve without nitrate but need either free oxygen or oxygen from nitrate . They may take some nitrogen from it or other nitrogen sources. They need the O2 but not as food. I agree with rcledan's post.
In anoxic conditions ( no oxygen and no nitrate) they wane and sulfate reducing bacteria take over when organic carbon is available;this results in sufide and hydrogen suffide forming.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

T. nitrificans is facultative as most denitrifying bacteria are . They thrive with free oxygen and when it's not avaialbe go for the oxygen from nitrate. They do not starve without nitrate but need either free oxygen or oxygen from nitrate . I agree with rcledan's post.
In anoxic conditions ( no oxygen and no nitrate) they wane and sufate reducing bacteria take over when organic carbon is available;this results in sufide and hydrogen suffide forming.

Technically annoxic means a dissolved oxygen level of less than 0.5ppm! It is also the level on which partial nitrification is induced.
There where NO sulphate reducing bacteria found in the biofilm on elemental sulphur.
I have only tried to explain how and why a bio-reactor works the way it does. The way the bio-film is build up is very important and very complex.
The production of H2S is a constant process in the biofilm because the bio-film is constantly renewed. Organic biomass from starved bacteria is constantly available and recycled. H2S is an important element in this process. All H2S will be used.
A BADESS works perfectly at DO levels of 2ppm and higher. Influent( 6ppm DO) is constantly mixed with the effluent which makes that OMZ (Oxygen Minimum Zone) in the bio-film are easily retrieved promoting anaerobic activities on the sulphur substrate. There is always enough oxygen available to prevent sudden die-off of the bio-film.

 

[tmz]

Most of that is off the point,which is nitrate is not used as food but the oxygen from it is .

I disagree with most of the technical interpretations as well.

Anoxia is simply a more severe form of hypoxia and generally means a severe depletion of oxygen to a point where other sources ,ie, nitrate are accessed for oxygen.
When the nitrate is gone and organic carbon is available sulfate reduction occurs. There is plenty of sulfate(SO4) in saltwater and sulfate reducing bacteria are ubiquitous ,so, there is plenty of opportunity for sulfate reducing bacteria to grow in anoxic areas within a sufur reactor.