Does lineage matter to you?

[mpoletti]

I know that there are many different levels and interests for SPS enthusiast; so I already know that that this debate can and most likely, will get ugly. I am just hoping it will not happened in the first 5-10-15 posts.

I'll explain a bit. I like to collect corals that have been in captivity for a generation or two. These are usually the pieces I see the best results with as I can monitor the ecosystem that they came from.

Many of these pieces have the name of Tyree, Tubs, Atlantis, Yourreef; I think you guys get the point. So, to me, coral lineage does matter because I don't mind paying a higher dollar amount or trading for piece that I know will do and look like what it is supposed to do and look like.

So, does lineage, not just the name, matter to you?
I have seen dozens of sunsets that look nothing like the original. I would not pay top dollar for one of those pieces, but I see them selling and people are buying them. The people then fragment the coral and pass them on.

Does it matter when a sore buys a colony of an original and changes the name to market their own store?
I guess that is better than when a store brings in a confusa and tries to sell it as an undata as many people can not tell the difference.

I am just curious to hear what other might want to say on this topic. I understand that many people do not feel the same way that I do and that ok. I already know that I am a little wierd

Thanks

 

[wishntoboutside]

lineage is very important to me. got to have the real deal in the long run it is worth it in many ways. sometimes the history of a frag or a colony is the best tale within the tank.

 

[Atomikk]

The problem occurs when two stores claim that they saw the coral first. Don't forget that many pieces trickle into North America over time.

I own a HUGE colony of the Tyree True Undata, yet I have seen it come in a shipment 3 times. In fact, 2 GIANT pieces came in not too long ago at a local high end store. It didn't come in from a transhipper or local wholesalers.. in fact it came directly from Indonesia.

So, if I wanted it, I could have easily named it Atomikk's True Undata as I picked it out of a shipment (as much as Eddie had for Steve). So lineage is a difficult topic to address.

 

[al abaqueta]

Hey Mark, I share the same philosophy as you do. I don't think it is weird. I think we as consumers in this large marketing world want to purchase the best product available for the best price. That is why companies such as consumer report and better business bureau exist. I equate quality, consistancy, tradition, and performance with certain name brands. It is a " proven" commodity. I am not saying that non name brand products have less quality, but they may not have the consistancy, tradition, or as "proven " as their name brand competitiors. All in all there is truth to the saying " you get what you pay for." Just my 2 cents worth. Al

 

[Twistedpro]

lineage is just something to charge the punter more. Eg, At the end of the day its a montipora Undata not a Tyree True Undata its genetics which make it Undata. Tyree just adds $$$$

 

[reefkoi]

Lineage matters to me when I am looking for a specific piece.
I have many non LE pieces in my tank that I think are nicer than my LE corals so I don't believe LE stuff is the best, it's just the way to go when asking for a certain color or shape you are wanting.
C

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12622272#post12622272 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by al abaqueta
Hey Mark, I share the same philosophy as you do. I don't think it is weird. I think we as consumers in this large marketing world want to purchase the best product available for the best price.

And its a hugely incorrect assumption that something with lineage is the best product.

 

[fatrip]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12622435#post12622435 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
And its a hugely incorrect assumption that something with lineage is the best product.

This is true, but getting a wild caught coral or even an aqua cultered one from over seas, you are taking a bigger chance that it wont keep its color or shape in your aquarium environment. with corals that have documented pictures and successes in multiple tanks there is a great chance of success with color and shape. just an aspect to look at. i like the stories behind them as well.

 

[fittiger]

This thread is about opinions, otherwise it would be a poll. I respect all of yours, so please just be tolerant of mine.

I would have to say no, lineage is not important, and without being too confrontational, I just think it is a bunch of hype. I say this because these LE/special edition/"rare" corals are made out to be one of a kind or extremely special in some way. This is just a brilliant marketing strategy and bravo to those doing it. These corals originally came from the ocean, and there are probably many more of them out there that are genetically identical or even a few that have sexually reproduced something even better than the ones being sold for $100/per half inch frag. These corals were not divinely created by these marketers, nor are they artificially enhance with some special coral steroids. They are only allowed to thrive in a well taken care of system, cherry picked, slapped a LE sticker on them and sold for 10-20 times what a genetically identical specimen just coming in from the ocean is sold for. Whats even more appalling to me is that the 50 people that bought these original LE frags have now been selling them off as part of this lineage and 500 frags later the same people sell theirs off as they mature to 5000 other people. At what point is this coral not a LE any more?

That being said, I am all for buying aquacultured corals. Unfortunately I live in Louisiana and I don't feel I have the opportunity or selection that many in say CA or FL get. I have found that lineage seems to be the most important to those communities in CA especially. I have gotten the most enjoyment looking for diamond in the rough frags; something thats not so spectacular but looks like it has potential. I get 8-10 of these for the $100 of a "name brand" coral and usually have 3-5 end up being fantastic. The large part of that enjoyment is watching them turn from an ugly duckling to a beautiful swan.

 

[PnoyReefeR]

For me Colors matters. I have LE pieces and some non LE's as well but when I do buy corals/ frags I look at the color and if it has lineage then that is just a plus for me. Colors catch my wallet first than lineage...

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12622523#post12622523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fatrip
This is true, but getting a wild caught coral or even an aqua cultered one from over seas, you are taking a bigger chance that it wont keep its color or shape in your aquarium environment. with corals that have documented pictures and successes in multiple tanks there is a great chance of success with color and shape. just an aspect to look at. i like the stories behind them as well.

No lineage doesn't necessarily mean its wild caught.


I can't tell anyone where my green slimer came from, but it has great color, and is hardy as all heck. Corals that have multiple generations in tanks are great, but you don't have to get a coral with someone's name on it to get that.

 

[DaveJ]

If I am buying a particular coral by 'name' because of its history, hardiness or its trade/frag potential then yes it matters. If I am buying because I like it, then no it doesn't matter.

 

[SDguy]

If I buy an Oregon tort, I want to know it's "the" oregon tort, so that I know what color and growth I should strive for. Does that mean lineage is important to me, or that I simply want the proper ID for my coral? Dunno....

 

[sfsuphysics]

I don't think it's weird, however that being said it doesn't make two squats towards me.

Pre-warning, this might seem a bit inflammatory, however it is not my intension, I just woke up so the brain is not quite awake yet.


So, does lineage, not just the name, matter to you?
I don't buy that "lineage" pieces will all look the same, lighting conditions impact how a coral looks beyond a measure of a doubt, and that slight variation of color can make any coral go from fab to drab. Since a sunset was mentioned, I picked up a piece some time ago that I would be willing to bet my house that it was the real deal Tyree Sunset (I trust the guy enough not to lie, and others here most likely would as well), now in my tank it went from the brilliant orange to a drab orange/peach color that looks almost faded (yet it's been in the same place for quite a while and has encrusted quite a bit). So yeah lighting can change color. That being said however, I don't agree with owners of stores simply naming their pieces as lineage simply because they look kind of like what is known, I mean it wasn't too long ago almost every store around here got a handful of watermelon chalices.. or a huge rock of rainbow montipora. So it's all in a name...


Does it matter when a sore buys a colony of an original and changes the name to market their own store?
One thing I don't mind though, is if they actually are a lineage piece, i.e. they've been around for a while in captivity it really says something. I don't think the purple monsters looks terribly hot, I mean it's purple good, but the fact it's been around for a long time really says something about it, the aquaculture nature of the piece. But with that being said the other side of lineage it seems people are equating with named pieces. Since this is the SPS forum I'll simply give one example... (ok maybe a few ) Atlantis Aquarium, I mean christ Ming has to name every coral that comes into his store (not going to trash him here though, but he's been very guilty of renaming corals to cash in on a trend)... also I'm seeing Dr F&S doing the same thing, even going so far as slapping the LE stamp on rather "ordinary" corals.

Was is Lineage
Ok, so naming prices, premium pieces, whatever aside this is about lineage and while Mark I think is eluding to the named ones (hence the mention of price), there's a lot to be said about pieces that have gone from tank to tank to tank over the years. I have corals I've gotten from a frag swap years ago, and have since fragged it, sold/traded/threw it back in the swap over the years as well. It doesn't have any special name other than maybe a common name like Green Slimer or Birdsnest or whatever. But those corals that others are getting from it are not coming from the oceans any more (if they came from my original piece)

I personally would rather have a full looking tank of a random assortment of colored corals, than a tank full of frags (that sure might one day get to that full look) that have lineage names. I bought a cheapy "brown" frag that had slightly purple tips, and it turns out that it also has green polyps... hey that sounds almost like the Tyree Tricolor (where brown is a color ) which I also have in the tank in a very similar condition. Difference is my cheapy piece has grown orders of magnitude faster than the Tyree piece. Granted they are completely different species of coral, but the grown in branching look (which recently died off *grumble* but is coming back!) looks way better IMO than the little nub that's slowly growing out. You can take a look at many TOTMs and I bet you'll find that most of those corals are not "lineage".

Conclusion
While there are certain aspects of naming corals in order to preserve lineage that I can dig, and can understand why there's a premium on some pieces. Other parts of naming corals simply to name them does get quite silly (look no further than Zoanthids). While I will pick fun at naming, if some people want to go that route I'm not going to look down (or up at them) for wanting "prized" pieces (Pokemon gotta collect them all?). For me it's not that important, if a coral looks nice, which some "lineage" pieces do then sure I'll probably want something that looks like that as well, however I'm not buying it for the lineage.

 

[mpoletti]

These are some very good ponits and opinions.

I like lineage pieces that have a history in captivity. This might mean that it named or not named.

I just have a hrad time when people sale pieces as named when they are not orginals.

 

[suppressivefire]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12622635#post12622635 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
No lineage doesn't necessarily mean its wild caught.


I can't tell anyone where my green slimer came from, but it has great color, and is hardy as all heck. Corals that have multiple generations in tanks are great, but you don't have to get a coral with someone's name on it to get that.

He also said aquacultured too.

 

[orientalexpress]

lineage is importance when u can afford it.i love most peaces from gcarrol or palleta,they're don't have LE on them,love the color of their corals.get mine mostly thru trade.,oh yeah,i love wild corals over aquaculture.especially deep water.


lapsan

 

[jtarmitage]

Lineage does matter to me, and it doesn't matter if it's a Tyree, ATL, or Joe Schmoe. What matters is if I see a coral that I like, I can see the system parameters, lighting, flow, nutrient levels, etc. and know that if I come close to matching those parameters, then I have a pretty good idea of what to expect from that coral. I bought that coral because of the way it looked when it was sold to me, not what it may morph into in my tank. I will pay extra for this.

What bothers me is when people claim their coral is xxxx, when it's not. Even worse when retailers are doing it, as is the case currently with a newly released Tyree AE coral where the lineage is very easily traceable since it was only recently introduced.

I buy corals because I like them, not for the name, but like to know what I'm getting as well as something that has been captively propogated.

 

[fatrip]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12622635#post12622635 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
No lineage doesn't necessarily mean its wild caught.


I can't tell anyone where my green slimer came from, but it has great color, and is hardy as all heck. Corals that have multiple generations in tanks are great, but you don't have to get a coral with someone's name on it to get that.

no you dont have to get it with a name on it but... who's to say that coral that looks so nice in that guys tank came from someone else and not from the sea or an aquaculter facility. there isn't solid proof if i am buying a coral from cali if it doesnt have some sort of linage to it. wether it be a name like tyree or a name like Cali tort.

I have a coral the was from a guy who got it wild caught, looks almost exatly like a cali tort, he could have told me it was and i wouldnt have know the difference. this also is a problem for some people who want to be environmentally friendly and dont want to take from corals that were wild caught.

also when you are paying $50 for a frag i would hope it doesnt look like a A yongi.

 

[Atomikk]

Great discussion guys! Clean and concise.

For us Canadians, we don't get the designer frags from you guys, but we do get shipments of corals almost on a weekly basis. The funny thing is that we get almost the same things that wholesalers get in Cali or Florida.

So when it comes to naming corals, I just stick to Latin name, color and rarely slap a LE (unless its been noted that it is). I did name one coral myself, but that is because I didn't meet anyone in North America with it (you can PM me and I can show you the coral). That same coral came from Marshall Islands (if you know that area, it doesn't ship out many corals), and it was browner than brown.

Anyway... this topic covers moral, business and ethical issues. Something that we should continue to talk about.