Does lineage matter to you?
- Thread starter mpoletti
- Start date
sfsuphysics
Active member
Just say Hockey sucks and maple syrup is overrated to derail the topic 
J/k! I love maple syrup... it's basically a LE version of "syrup" (high fructose corn syrup + other junk), stuff is expensive for a little bottle! Will trade frags for Maple Syrup!
J/k! I love maple syrup... it's basically a LE version of "syrup" (high fructose corn syrup + other junk), stuff is expensive for a little bottle! Will trade frags for Maple Syrup!
Unarce
Unshackled
Just like the two possible answers to this, you can categorize reefers into two types. You’re either a ‘collector’ or ‘non-collector’. Occasionally, you get a non-collector on a ‘high horse’, who abolishes LE/coral naming, which is fine. It doesn’t change much of anything. The great thing is that ‘collectors’ seem to be able to respect others opinions and just continue to do what they themselves, enjoy. It’s been that way for over 130 years, ever since the first collectible cigarette cards began to circulate.
We all collect for various reasons, but I will only mention a couple of my own:
-Strong advocate for tank-raised corals. I’m very proud to say that no corals in my tank are less than 2 generations removed from a wild colony. Even more proud that all my corals are grown from tank-raised frags.
-Prolongs the ‘upgrade’. Since I limit myself to collectibles, I avoid becoming overstocked too quickly. Some might see it as a bad thing, since they’re always looking for that next big tank
Whereas, I’m always looking out for the slowest growing SPS in the biz.-Tightens my ‘Circle of Reef Friends’. This is an unfortunate but necessary reason to collect for me. The advancement of reefkeeping means more shady characters and dirty hands are in the fold. In the fear of getting ‘fakes’ or ‘pest-infested’ corals, where either problem can drive you away or towards zoos and LPS, I now have a very short list of people I will accept coral from
I believe the last one is the issue that this thread was meant to address.
Mark,
I understand your need to pose this question. It’s unfortunate about the circumstance surrounding the ‘AE’ coral in question. It does ruin the collectibility for enthusiasts.
As a former owner of ‘Hammer Pants’ during my sophomore year of high school, I learned very early not to follow trends. ‘Influencer Marketing’ is being used more now than ever before. It’s not illegal for a vendor to reuse a name on a completely different coral, and make a quick buck off of a trend (i.e. Aussie Corals). In this economy, I can’t blame them. If you choose to be a collector, you just need to be smart about it. Do some due diligence, and verify lineage as best you can.
Just grin and bear it, Mark…it’s only a hobby
-Karl
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aurora
New member
It's like generic or brand name drug. If taking Brand make you think you feel better fast, the extra cost is worth it. However, if you are like me and has no problem with Generic, then that's the way to go.
Slapping a Brand on a coral does not necessarily means it will look as good in my tank as the guy I bought it from. I've grown SPS for the past 10 years and trust me, I grown out some ugly Brand corals and end up giving it away. So many factors goes into how an SPS will look in your tank that you can never predict what a coral will look like. More importantly is correctly identifying the species of SPS that you are buying and knowing roughly the color that it should become in your tank. Sometime, I look at a piece/frag at a LFS or a friend's tank and will have a good idea how it'll look in my tank mentally adjusting for the light and spectrum difference based on experience. Most of the time, I'm right but sometime I'm pleasantly wrong. For instance, I picked up an aquacultured piece last year that looked like a thick branching blue humulis under 20K and have it turned sky blue under my 12K Reeflux and realized i got a Hoeksemai...it's now the prettiest blue in my tank.
If you didn't get the point...I think brand doesn't matter.
Slapping a Brand on a coral does not necessarily means it will look as good in my tank as the guy I bought it from. I've grown SPS for the past 10 years and trust me, I grown out some ugly Brand corals and end up giving it away. So many factors goes into how an SPS will look in your tank that you can never predict what a coral will look like. More importantly is correctly identifying the species of SPS that you are buying and knowing roughly the color that it should become in your tank. Sometime, I look at a piece/frag at a LFS or a friend's tank and will have a good idea how it'll look in my tank mentally adjusting for the light and spectrum difference based on experience. Most of the time, I'm right but sometime I'm pleasantly wrong. For instance, I picked up an aquacultured piece last year that looked like a thick branching blue humulis under 20K and have it turned sky blue under my 12K Reeflux and realized i got a Hoeksemai...it's now the prettiest blue in my tank.
If you didn't get the point...I think brand doesn't matter.
I definately like to start my pieces from frags...something about it "growing up" with all of my time and effort. I have never had the desire to start with colonies. Occasionally a colony size piece has sparked my interest and I will buy but 99% of my two tanks are tank raised from little frags. Many traded, many bought, many named, some not...hey I made a rhyme without even trying .
I consider myself a collector of sorts and find that the long track record of some of the named pieces draws me to want them in my tank. I look at some named pieces and have no desire to purchase or trade for them. I like what I like. One of my top 5 corals in one of my tanks is a lineageed piece without the LE status. In other words it has been around for quite a long time and is just plain lovely. I routinely give frags of it away as many people like it when they see it in the tank. I think the naming craze has certainly taken on a mind of its own and I hate to see certain vendors using known names to sell knockoffs or different corals to capitalize on the moment. But as Karl said and others have noted, there is no law against it. Buyers just need to be aware of what they are getting. I think for some people where lineage matters, like myself, it is important to know the stories behind the corals and to know they have a track record of health and colors you like. It's all about what you like. I have yet to see a Sunset Monti that looks anything like the original. I just love that Sunset Monti...such a gorgeous piece.
Mark, it just plain sucks about the recent AE naming stuff... I guess you just gotta take it as flattery. At least this is what I try to tell to my students when someone is copying them.
Anyways, this has been a great thread and many of you are way more eleoquent than I am. Thanks for everyone's thoughts and respect on the topic. It is good to have open discussion about this as it is a big part of the hobby these days.
. I consider myself a collector of sorts and find that the long track record of some of the named pieces draws me to want them in my tank. I look at some named pieces and have no desire to purchase or trade for them. I like what I like. One of my top 5 corals in one of my tanks is a lineageed piece without the LE status. In other words it has been around for quite a long time and is just plain lovely. I routinely give frags of it away as many people like it when they see it in the tank
. I think the naming craze has certainly taken on a mind of its own and I hate to see certain vendors using known names to sell knockoffs or different corals to capitalize on the moment. But as Karl said and others have noted, there is no law against it. Buyers just need to be aware of what they are getting. I think for some people where lineage matters, like myself, it is important to know the stories behind the corals and to know they have a track record of health and colors you like. It's all about what you like. I have yet to see a Sunset Monti that looks anything like the original. I just love that Sunset Monti...such a gorgeous piece. Mark, it just plain sucks about the recent AE naming stuff... I guess you just gotta take it as flattery. At least this is what I try to tell to my students when someone is copying them.
Anyways, this has been a great thread and many of you are way more eleoquent than I am. Thanks for everyone's thoughts and respect on the topic. It is good to have open discussion about this as it is a big part of the hobby these days.
jtarmitage
Active member
Well said Alicia. Today has been an eye opener learning the business practices of certain retailers. As was told to me a couple of times, I should get a DNA test done on my own dime, when he and I both know the coral not to be genuine.
So, some of you may know the answer to this. Will a DNA test be able to verify if two corals actually came from the same colony? I could see down to the species level, but could it determine if the corals are actually the same?
Lets take Icefire Echinata, for example. Could you determine that they are both Icefire, or merely that they are both ehcinatas?
So, some of you may know the answer to this. Will a DNA test be able to verify if two corals actually came from the same colony? I could see down to the species level, but could it determine if the corals are actually the same?
Lets take Icefire Echinata, for example. Could you determine that they are both Icefire, or merely that they are both ehcinatas?
Jay- This topic was about lineage but a few other events transpired over the last week as well
It basically comes back to the question; how importance is lineage to you.
The reponses have been very nice. Karl, its nice to see you post especially on such a highly flamable topic. I agree that "a close circle of friends" is key
Alicia
Jeremy, I can not wait to help you set up your new tank this weekend, Maybe you should start your build thread so we can have another outlet
sfsuphysics
Active member
Someone actually asked a similarly related question in the club forum, had a picture of a Sunset monti, asked if it was the real deal, gonna fork over money, don't mind if it's in fact geniune, etc. Long story short I told him to find someone he trusts who knows who this is from whether or not it's the real deal. Karl's "Circle of friends" bit, ditto with my sunset, I know it's the real deal I know where it came from
Sorry if you got stiffed/screwed/shafted Mark, I'm curious what AE is all about too but no need to open up new wounds
Sorry if you got stiffed/screwed/shafted Mark, I'm curious what AE is all about too but no need to open up new wounds
jtarmitage
Active member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12626682#post12626682 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marko9
Jeremy, I can not wait to help you set up your new tank this weekend, Maybe you should start your build thread so we can have another outlet
Soon. Next couple of days if I can get to it. Most of the pics were on the computer that died.I agree Bebo77, but if someone claims it's an LE, you want the LE, and are willing to pay the LE premium, I think you should get the LE.
dots
Premium Member
When one thinks of LE, the words "trendy", "designer", and "flavor of the week" are muttered. Why? Quite possibly its the result and a "backlash" of the popularity which they have had in recent years, however I feel this is the thing people have choosen which idealizes the change in the hobby the last few years, and could be the figurative "whipping boy".
What does this have to do with lineage?......Bear with me. When we speak of lineage we also speak of LE's and what they bring, both good and bad.
In a nutshell, and without going on a tangent even further, people forget where we were just a few years ago, unable to keep these "sticks". It was a small network or reefkeepers, trading amongst each other in a very laissez-faire structure were everyone new each other, shared information, and traded within this grassroots organization. Those who do speak in fond rememberance of the camradiery, goodwill, and fun, in a no competition atmosphere. (Rosey colored glasses perhaps?)
Times have changed, the hobby has become very popular as we have discovered what works and what doesn't. This has led to an influx of a diverse demographic of people, and that with the development of the industry to support all of these reefers, brings other more "monetarily" driven motives. Its because times have changed, that the dedication and patience it used to take to obtain success, to network with the reefers to obtain what you desire, the "heart and soul" one could say.........has seemed to have been replaced by those that decide one day between Starbucks and thier 2pm apointment with their stylist, they want a "fish tank". So they go down to the LFS with Platinum card in hand, a shopping list for this light, that skimmer, and that pump, buy $1000 in frags before water hitting the tank, expecting to follow Betty Crocker's 1-2-3 recipe for coral success, and Whammo, Insta-Reef.
This is what I believe to be the sides being taken on this issue, those who say "I don't sell out nor follow the pack" for those who don't collect LE's. For those who do collect them have been labeled as trendy, shallow, superfical, one-ups-man, only into the bragging rights for the best reef tank trophy, only to cast it aside and to move onto the next "fad" when thier attention span fades, or they get tired of "all the work".
Unfortunatly, there is a bit of truth to this and those people do exist and in a way one of the best things, the networking, comraderie, and a little sencerity for the hobby has been lost, as it has grown from a small network to a literal World Wide Web of commercialism. But remember, Las Vegas and Los Angeles didn't strive to have the reputations of superficial shallowness, they just became so popular and large, they lost some of the human side of things.
I believe lineage is VERY important, and should be a part of the Limited Edition/Collectors market as I believe it brings back a sense of that grass roots networking, the thrill of the hunt, and that human connection to the hobby, even possibly going as far as part of something bigger and linking us with the past, giving us a reminder of how things "used to be".
Of course, these are things one develops over time. I would not expect many who are just getting started or who have paid little thought into this issue to agree or empathize with me. However, from my experience, doing so has added much more personal meaning to the hobby, keeps me involved, and makes me appreciate my pieces even more, as well adds another dimension, "the thrill of the hunt" one may call it.
So yes, lineage is important and should be preserved for those select "Limited" pieces that are unique and those of us who value such things.
In other words, it helps retain a sense of community between us.
What does this have to do with lineage?......Bear with me. When we speak of lineage we also speak of LE's and what they bring, both good and bad.
In a nutshell, and without going on a tangent even further, people forget where we were just a few years ago, unable to keep these "sticks". It was a small network or reefkeepers, trading amongst each other in a very laissez-faire structure were everyone new each other, shared information, and traded within this grassroots organization. Those who do speak in fond rememberance of the camradiery, goodwill, and fun, in a no competition atmosphere. (Rosey colored glasses perhaps?)
Times have changed, the hobby has become very popular as we have discovered what works and what doesn't. This has led to an influx of a diverse demographic of people, and that with the development of the industry to support all of these reefers, brings other more "monetarily" driven motives. Its because times have changed, that the dedication and patience it used to take to obtain success, to network with the reefers to obtain what you desire, the "heart and soul" one could say.........has seemed to have been replaced by those that decide one day between Starbucks and thier 2pm apointment with their stylist, they want a "fish tank". So they go down to the LFS with Platinum card in hand, a shopping list for this light, that skimmer, and that pump, buy $1000 in frags before water hitting the tank, expecting to follow Betty Crocker's 1-2-3 recipe for coral success, and Whammo, Insta-Reef.
This is what I believe to be the sides being taken on this issue, those who say "I don't sell out nor follow the pack" for those who don't collect LE's. For those who do collect them have been labeled as trendy, shallow, superfical, one-ups-man, only into the bragging rights for the best reef tank trophy, only to cast it aside and to move onto the next "fad" when thier attention span fades, or they get tired of "all the work".
Unfortunatly, there is a bit of truth to this and those people do exist and in a way one of the best things, the networking, comraderie, and a little sencerity for the hobby has been lost, as it has grown from a small network to a literal World Wide Web of commercialism. But remember, Las Vegas and Los Angeles didn't strive to have the reputations of superficial shallowness, they just became so popular and large, they lost some of the human side of things.
I believe lineage is VERY important, and should be a part of the Limited Edition/Collectors market as I believe it brings back a sense of that grass roots networking, the thrill of the hunt, and that human connection to the hobby, even possibly going as far as part of something bigger and linking us with the past, giving us a reminder of how things "used to be".
Of course, these are things one develops over time. I would not expect many who are just getting started or who have paid little thought into this issue to agree or empathize with me. However, from my experience, doing so has added much more personal meaning to the hobby, keeps me involved, and makes me appreciate my pieces even more, as well adds another dimension, "the thrill of the hunt" one may call it.
So yes, lineage is important and should be preserved for those select "Limited" pieces that are unique and those of us who value such things.
In other words, it helps retain a sense of community between us.
dots
Premium Member
I don't know if Mark has said it yet, but he said something to me once so simple yet elegant......"DNA doesn't lie" meaning, if they are the same identical piece, they will not try to kill each other resulting in no burn.
Another part of this "bigger issue" I am speaking of is solving this problem of "certification" people are always suggesting. I have a suggestion on how to solve this problem, to encourage vendors to "certify" and make it worth their time, while hopefully creating a system that doesn't result in a Governing body that decides who, what, where, when, how many get "LE" status, and all of the politics, and buacracy that goes along with it. However regulation, and a Governing body that does just that, leads us even farther away from the unregulated, grassroots, trust building part of the hobby which still today makes it interesting.
But this is another topic itself.
Another part of this "bigger issue" I am speaking of is solving this problem of "certification" people are always suggesting. I have a suggestion on how to solve this problem, to encourage vendors to "certify" and make it worth their time, while hopefully creating a system that doesn't result in a Governing body that decides who, what, where, when, how many get "LE" status, and all of the politics, and buacracy that goes along with it. However regulation, and a Governing body that does just that, leads us even farther away from the unregulated, grassroots, trust building part of the hobby which still today makes it interesting.
But this is another topic itself.
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eagleONE
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12626682#post12626682 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marko9
Jay- This topic was about lineage but a few other events transpired over the last week as well
It basically comes back to the question; how importance is lineage to you.
wait...sorry I guess that came out differently than I thought... ah nvm I'll pm you.
I honestly can't say. I mean, if piece of coral is pleasing to my eye, whether it has a name or not, I'm going to like it. There are pieces that I really like that have names and lineages and there are pieces that really strike me and they have no lineages... so I guess my answer would be it wouldn't be very important to me at least.
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dots
Premium Member
Thank you Alicia, I appreciate that........in the end I guess I don't want to think our time was wasted here or be portrayed as some robber barrons strip mining the land, giving no thought to those who came before us nor to those who come after us from a "SPS culture" point of view.
That, or I have WAY too much time on my hands!!!:wildone:
That, or I have WAY too much time on my hands!!!:wildone:
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Znut Reefer
Premium Member
I can't add much more than what has already been said by Alicia and Dots. I do care about lineage when I'm buying or trading frags. And I always try to deal with reputable people I know I can trust. I don't think you should buy just any frag thats an LE just because it has the LE title. I only want the ones that I think I like. I'm a big collector of le's and exotics. And like that they come from a proven lineage to adapt well in our tanks. I have tried a few wilds and have been let down with color. Not to mention they don't do as well as tank raised frags.Sometimes you do get lucky and have a wild that will do well and color up as nice or nicer than an le. But in my in my opinion I would always recommend aquacultured, and tank raised over wild any day. My tanks are both 99 % grown from small frags. And I enjoy knowing I grew them from frags.
I also don't agree that vendors should sell wild as le's just to make a buck. I think an honest reputation goes along way in this hobby. And to be successful they only need to sell the true original le's as le's not copys because they look very similar. I do agree the Le status does get out of hand with the pricing. And it's all up to the individual as the whether they want to pay the asking price. Some le's are over rated in my opinion. And those are the ones I don't buy. I think some LE's need to have a proven track record before they are made LE's, not just because they are very colorful and the latest coral on the scene to command a high price because they made the LE status. Thats just my thoughts.
I agree it's always best to have a good circle of friends to trade with. That way you can trade le's for le's exotics for exotics and all are happy. Not to mention everyone in the group can certainly have a chance at a le they would like to have in their collection without paying a high price for it.
I also don't agree that vendors should sell wild as le's just to make a buck. I think an honest reputation goes along way in this hobby. And to be successful they only need to sell the true original le's as le's not copys because they look very similar. I do agree the Le status does get out of hand with the pricing. And it's all up to the individual as the whether they want to pay the asking price. Some le's are over rated in my opinion. And those are the ones I don't buy. I think some LE's need to have a proven track record before they are made LE's, not just because they are very colorful and the latest coral on the scene to command a high price because they made the LE status. Thats just my thoughts.
I agree it's always best to have a good circle of friends to trade with. That way you can trade le's for le's exotics for exotics and all are happy. Not to mention everyone in the group can certainly have a chance at a le they would like to have in their collection without paying a high price for it.
Justin74
New member
I feel the tug from both sides as they are BOTH clearly valid and correct. Am often on both sides of the fence as well in the arguments, usually against the term LE.
Lineage does and should matter to the consciencious aquarist, but only to an extent. And the extent it should go gets very skewed. Moreso for the fact that lineage is or should be associated with the term LE. My beef is against this term as it has severely been abused by the ones that have designed it let alone the ones that attempt to leach off it's bounty that it has brought in these past 4-5 years. I can show you a handfull of LE's that were coined right out of the box, with no history of it's captivity in a closed system, but just on the fact that no one has seen it yet. No story, just a coral passing between 2 hands. That's what has demoralized the prestige of the term Limited Edition IMO and has opened the door to all the RARE,L@@K!, LE ACAN, MICROMUSSA you cant help but see here and abroad..
So yes theres a list that will generate everlasting entrigue and trading with fancifull reef chit chat of exotic one of kinds that took trecking across marshlands, mountains and distant shores to aquire , but how long that list is and when it ends and what should really even be on it is so grossly blurry...
-Justin
Lineage does and should matter to the consciencious aquarist, but only to an extent. And the extent it should go gets very skewed. Moreso for the fact that lineage is or should be associated with the term LE. My beef is against this term as it has severely been abused by the ones that have designed it let alone the ones that attempt to leach off it's bounty that it has brought in these past 4-5 years. I can show you a handfull of LE's that were coined right out of the box, with no history of it's captivity in a closed system, but just on the fact that no one has seen it yet. No story, just a coral passing between 2 hands. That's what has demoralized the prestige of the term Limited Edition IMO and has opened the door to all the RARE,L@@K!, LE ACAN, MICROMUSSA you cant help but see here and abroad..
So yes theres a list that will generate everlasting entrigue and trading with fancifull reef chit chat of exotic one of kinds that took trecking across marshlands, mountains and distant shores to aquire , but how long that list is and when it ends and what should really even be on it is so grossly blurry...
-Justin
craiglanda
New member
This is a tough one to answer....I guess it does matter to me for the reasons you have already stated... ( it survives in the home aquarium, it keeps its color, etc.) However, I have a nice handful of corals that have no "brand name" that i took a chance with and they turned out to be absolutely stunning! So if i were selling corals comercially i dont see why those no name corals shouldnt warrant the same high end prices that say a tyree or whatever "brand name" you want to throw on it. Tyree and all of those infamous guys/gals (gotta be PC) aquire their corals from other enthusiasts but the price doesnt get jacked up until it has been in there possesion and then branded with their name. So to make a long story short....All that really matters to me is if it does well in my tank and the actual name means nothing to me. Just so happens that those brand name corals tend to do well but there are many exceptions...
stony_corals
New member
Let's separate some issues here....
1) Lineage or not - personal preference
2) LE or not - personal preference
3) Calling a coral something its not to increase profits - ethical issue..... Like an earlier poster, there are tons of maricultured sps that are coming in that look like coral xyz (whatever lineage or LE status). It's happening. I don't think its to call it a M. undata, but to call it a Tyree LE Undata is unethical.... Caveat emptor....
1) Lineage or not - personal preference
2) LE or not - personal preference
3) Calling a coral something its not to increase profits - ethical issue..... Like an earlier poster, there are tons of maricultured sps that are coming in that look like coral xyz (whatever lineage or LE status). It's happening. I don't think its to call it a M. undata, but to call it a Tyree LE Undata is unethical.... Caveat emptor....
