Does lineage matter to you?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12832208#post12832208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda

With your dog, you have faith that it is a true Jack Russell, and that is good enough for you. Try to sell a puppy from your dog under the claim it is a true Jack Russell, and see how many times you get asked for documnetation. Try to do anything with that dog that erquires it to be noted as a pure bred, and see what happens. THAT is my point. Surely its a wonderful dog, and is exactly what you want, but there are certainly limitations to what can do in terms to its pre bred nature, is there not?

My point was up until 4-5yrs ago no "true" Jack Russell had any type of "pure bred" documentation. Jack Russels have been bred for years and years with no recognition from the AKC. When I got mine it didn't matter what breeder you got a JRT pup from, there was no documentation or proof of lineage to be had. You just had to go through a "trustworthy" breeder and take their word for it. My dog could have had some other dog mixed into the bloodline and I would have not been the wiser. But in the grand scheme of things it didnt really matter because I loved him regardless. Even if i wanted to breed him It wouldnt have mattered because no JRT's had documentation back then.

Which is a similar to these LE, or "lineaged" corals, you have no proof like you keep pointing out. But why does it matter if you are happy with your purchase? Usually, in my experiences anyway, If you don't buy directly from the original "namer" of the coral, and you have no proof of lineage, it's usually about half of what you would pay if you got it from Tyree himself.

I have bought frags from Steve Tyree, Atlantis, Fragfarmer, etc. and i have bought "LE" frags from a few people I trust but can't "prove" the lineage. I can pay $100 and no that my lineage is true, or i can pay $50 for the unproven frag. I'll usually go with the $50 frag because it is someone i trust.

I am not disagreeing with you saying that we can't prove lineage. But it doesnt really matter if you can prove it or not In my opinion.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12832421#post12832421 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JER-Z
My point was up until 4-5yrs ago no "true" Jack Russell had any type of "pure bred" documentation. Jack Russels have been bred for years and years with no recognition from the AKC. When I got mine it didn't matter what breeder you got a JRT pup from, there was no documentation or proof of lineage to be had. You just had to go through a trustworthy breeder. My dog could have had some other dog mixed into the bloodline and I would have not been the wiser. Same went for any JRT pup back then.

Which is a similar to these LE, or "lineaged" corals, you have no proof like you keep pointing out. But why does it matter if you are happy with your purchase? Usually, in my experiences anyway, If you don't buy directly from the original "namer" of the coral, and you have no proof of lineage, it's usually about half of what you would pay if you got it from Tyree himself.

I have bought frags from Steve Tyree, Atlantis, Fragfarmer, etc. and i have bought "LE" frags from a few people I trust but can't "prove" the lineage. I can pay $100 and no that my lineage is true, or i can pay $50 for the unproven frag. I'll usually go with the $50 frag because it is someone i trust.

I am not disagreeing with you saying that we can't prove lineage. But it doesnt really matter if you can prove it or not In my opinion.

I agree 10000%. We are of the same opinion. My argument came about because claim that they do have lineaged pieces, and I disagreed. You can have perosnal comfort that you think you know what you have, and be very very happy with it, but that is where it ends.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12832300#post12832300 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fatrip
who cares about macro algea...it exports nutrients..bla bla bla

I do .. I dont care about lineage :eek. If I like the piece Ill buy it if its and LE then thats a plus for me.. If I can afford to buy LE pieces yes I will buy em...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12832480#post12832480 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reeferpnoy
I do .. I dont care about lineage :eek. If I like the piece Ill buy it if its and LE then thats a plus for me.. If I can afford to buy LE pieces yes I will buy em...

no need to get defensive i was just bustin on ya. i do the same but if it is an LE coral i need some cridentials to prove it..lol...any who macro just sits there its a plant.
 
You guys sound like you are talking about drugs. I dont believe in paying $100+ for half inch frags. Tyree and atlantis can keep them. Labeling live corals as "Limited Edition" is the most clever, yet dumbest marketing scheme I have ever heard of.
 
very clever, since masses of people are what??? :lol: ...

wish i was in the hobby 15 years ago and thought of it... :(
 
Well let's see if I am buying a "Tyree" sunset monti then yes it matters. If I am buying a Wild colony that looks as spectacular as the Org. then no it doesn't matter to me. I always prefer to get TR corals but I am one of those people that like the challenge and the Unknown of "brown" corals. Some of my favorite pieces were ones I bought as "scratch and dent" and turned out to be gems!

As far as coloring etc. I don't feel there is any more likely chance of a TR coral shifting colors then a Wild one since every system is different no matter how identical they are set up.

Now as for a store buying a "named" coral then changing the name to benefit themselves I don't agree with at all. If I have a Wild sunset I advertise it as a "Wild" coral. Now if you have a store that gets in a "wild" version of an LE coral I have no problem with them renaming it (I will use my store as an example) UWP's Sunset Monti or YR's Sunset, etc. IMO if you aquried a wild coral you can name it anything you want as long as you don't pass it off for a TR original LE.

IMO you don't have to just buy LE or tank raised corals to be a "collector" there are many different types of "collectors" IMO

With that said there are far too many people taking wild corals and saying they the Org. just to make a few extra dollars. I have both captive and wild versions of many of the LE's corals and I always keep track of what is what and I let my customers know "this is the LE sunset,this is my wild version of the sunset, one cost $$$$ the other $$" and I let them chose what one they want.

Just my .02c
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12703528#post12703528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mpoletti
In my notes, It would be the YR raspberry millepora from Marko9.
That is where I got it from. That is why as a collector, I do not trade with people I do not trust. I know, it goes back to integrity and honor, something that is limited in our society.

Quoted for clarity and truth. The hobby has had a lack of these virtues, especialy since the whole LE thing came along.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12836274#post12836274 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CW from the OC
Quoted for clarity and truth. The hobby has had a lack of these virtues, especialy since the whole LE thing came along.

Not just this hobby but society as a whole! I am a firm believer in "Respect" gets you much further then "money".

I once had a customer that thought because he gave me a couple thousand dollars to hand pick him some corals that I was his personal slave...........errrnt wrong! I told him to take his money and come back when he has some respect!!!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12836062#post12836062 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Underwaterparadise
Well let's see if I am buying a "Tyree" sunset monti then yes it matters. If I am buying a Wild colony that looks as spectacular as the Org. then no it doesn't matter to me. I always prefer to get TR corals but I am one of those people that like the challenge and the Unknown of "brown" corals. Some of my favorite pieces were ones I bought as "scratch and dent" and turned out to be gems!

As far as coloring etc. I don't feel there is any more likely chance of a TR coral shifting colors then a Wild one since every system is different no matter how identical they are set up.

Now as for a store buying a "named" coral then changing the name to benefit themselves I don't agree with at all. If I have a Wild sunset I advertise it as a "Wild" coral. Now if you have a store that gets in a "wild" version of an LE coral I have no problem with them renaming it (I will use my store as an example) UWP's Sunset Monti or YR's Sunset, etc. IMO if you aquried a wild coral you can name it anything you want as long as you don't pass it off for a TR original LE.

IMO you don't have to just buy LE or tank raised corals to be a "collector" there are many different types of "collectors" IMO

With that said there are far too many people taking wild corals and saying they the Org. just to make a few extra dollars. I have both captive and wild versions of many of the LE's corals and I always keep track of what is what and I let my customers know "this is the LE sunset,this is my wild version of the sunset, one cost $$$$ the other $$" and I let them chose what one they want.

Just my .02c
:thumbsup:

I always prefer to get TR corals but I am one of those people that like the challenge and the Unknown of "brown" corals. Some of my favorite pieces were ones I bought as "scratch and dent" and turned out to be gems!

Ditto:D
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12836274#post12836274 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CW from the OC
especialy since the whole LE thing came along.

Wow, since the 1990's? That's a long time. :)
 
jmaneyapanda, sorry to confuse but what I am trying to say is that LE corals with lineage provide the buyer with an idea of how a coral may look under certain conditions, and if I like how that coral looks (or is supposed to look), grows, etc. then it helps me to choose a coral with potential to be a certain way. Some of the LEs with lineage I have bought didn't look so great when I got them, but I know how they can look, so I may be willing to gamble on them more than a browned out frag I know nothing about. Other corals, LE or not, just look great and therefore speak for themselves. So I am saying there can be positives to both types. Of course, it is very difficult to impossible to prove lineage, but most of the people I deal with are honest and reputable, and therefore I am willing to gamble on getting a nice coral from them. For example, I love the watermelon echinos and alot of other chalices, and like to collect the different morphs and species. If I can get one from the originator or from Tyree, then I feel pretty confident that I am receiving the real deal. Other times, I may purchase/trade from/with someone who happened to get their seed from the originator, Tyree, or someone down the line. Sure, I could get something different from what I intended, but that hasn't happened to me that I know of. Close enough I guess. Being a collector, I am also interested in new corals, or anything that looks nice, whether LE or not. Fact is that many LEs are LEs for a reason, because they are awesome corals! Maybe I am crazy, but there are many LEs I have and want, but I am not limited to just these corals. You got some cool non-lineage corals/frags to sell, shoot me a PM and pics as I would like to see them. Hope this helps to explain my addiction better.
 
Hi all,

I bought my named coral from a few "named" folks, but I only bought them if I spoke to them personally and we had a common philosophy.

Case in point, I met a previous poster through RC. He had connections, and I had connections (electrical only). We agreed on a trade, and set a ship date. On the greatly anticipated day, (and to his honor) he had unplanned root canal surgery and drove through 2 hours of traffic (completely stoned) to send me 2X my named pieces. Some were absolutely irreplaceable.

I met another reefer through RC, he was a supplier to Tyree before the crash; a true named name. He invited me (a total stranger) into his home and shared a lifetime of knowledge in one evening. I met his family, traded some favorite recipes, and he even went to the Wal-Mart to get a larger cooler with me.

Named coral only come from named people.

If you buy named coral and never meet the "namer" shame on you.
 
How is "lineage" defined? That is the 10 million dollar question here.

To me, lineage is defined as the actual "family tree", or parentage, descendants, and generation coming from an original colony. Hpow can this be determined, or better yet, verified? Right now word of mouht only. This is why I have repeatedly made the claim that lineages cannot be proven in this hobby (except in rare cases). We all may feel comfortable that the coral we just bought looks pretty, grows well, is hardy, etc., but there is really no way we can know or porve that it is where we are claiming it is, is there? In as much, lineages only exist and matter inside our own head.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12837511#post12837511 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by roblack
jmaneyapanda, sorry to confuse but what I am trying to say is that LE corals with lineage provide the buyer with an idea of how a coral may look under certain conditions, and if I like how that coral looks (or is supposed to look), grows, etc. then it helps me to choose a coral with potential to be a certain way. Some of the LEs with lineage I have bought didn't look so great when I got them, but I know how they can look, so I may be willing to gamble on them more than a browned out frag I know nothing about. Other corals, LE or not, just look great and therefore speak for themselves. So I am saying there can be positives to both types. Of course, it is very difficult to impossible to prove lineage, but most of the people I deal with are honest and reputable, and therefore I am willing to gamble on getting a nice coral from them. For example, I love the watermelon echinos and alot of other chalices, and like to collect the different morphs and species. If I can get one from the originator or from Tyree, then I feel pretty confident that I am receiving the real deal. Other times, I may purchase/trade from/with someone who happened to get their seed from the originator, Tyree, or someone down the line. Sure, I could get something different from what I intended, but that hasn't happened to me that I know of. Close enough I guess. Being a collector, I am also interested in new corals, or anything that looks nice, whether LE or not. Fact is that many LEs are LEs for a reason, because they are awesome corals! Maybe I am crazy, but there are many LEs I have and want, but I am not limited to just these corals. You got some cool non-lineage corals/frags to sell, shoot me a PM and pics as I would like to see them. Hope this helps to explain my addiction better.

I agree with what you say. That is my point through this whole thing. The lineages you mention are sometimes verifiable (as you buy them from the brand owner), but other times not. Yet, this is secondary to getting a healthy, colorful coral. I agree. This is why I debate the whole fake vs. real issue. What is a fake? Who decides? If the brand name is just arbitrarily assigned by whoever wants to, then who is to say that this coral that looks like it, grows like it, and is as hardy as it, isn't just as good, if not better?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12831689#post12831689 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
My point all along in this issue is- you don't have lineaged corals, you *think* or *believe* you have lineaged corals. Can you prove to me you do?

Perhaps then in trying to prove your point, you have failed to address the topic.

Early on, I stated the concept has evolved for a lot of us who have been collecting for a while.

I also acknowledged the way things have come to be was not architected, nor had a master plan.

You are correct, there is no way to "prove" lineage. What I am confused on, is why are you trying to prove a point that has already been acknowledged as something that needs to be addressed, but that really isn't the subject to begin with.

The only analogy I can illustrate this with is: Pretend we are driving in a car down the free way. We get a flat tire, I realize this and begin to pull off the side of the road to fix the problem. The entire time I am doing so you are saying, "We can't drive anymore we have a flat tire".....over, and over, and over when we already know this fact.

I tried to explain to you that under the "current" way things are, it would be difficult for those not on the West Coast due to the lack of infrastructure in this imperfect system. I further went on to explain that I did have ideas on solving the problems associated so that all who were interested could participate in such.

My friend, you have the Cart literally in front of the Horse on this one.

No one is arguing that we have a flat tire, we want to know if we should fix the tire or shoot that horse your dragging behind you.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12838223#post12838223 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
Perhaps then in trying to prove your point, you have failed to address the topic.

Early on, I stated the concept has evolved for a lot of us who have been collecting for a while.

I also acknowledged the way things have come to be was not architected, nor had a master plan.

You are correct, there is no way to "prove" lineage. What I am confused on, is why are you trying to prove a point that has already been acknowledged as something that needs to be addressed, but that really isn't the subject to begin with.

The only analogy I can illustrate this with is: Pretend we are driving in a car down the free way. We get a flat tire, I realize this and begin to pull off the side of the road to fix the problem. The entire time I am doing so you are saying, "We can't drive anymore we have a flat tire".....over, and over, and over when we already know this fact.

I tried to explain to you that under the "current" way things are, it would be difficult for those not on the West Coast due to the lack of infrastructure in this imperfect system. I further went on to explain that I did have ideas on solving the problems associated so that all who were interested could participate in such.

My friend, you have the Cart literally in front of the Horse on this one.

No one is arguing that we have a flat tire, we want to know if we should fix the tire or shoot that horse your dragging behind you.

While, you may concede that we do have a "flat tire", I surely can find many in this thread, who do not. They will repeatedly discuss their "lineaged" corals.

I have mentioned, that I feel there should be some organization to this system. Unfortunately, I dont think it a reality, as it would involve cooperation from the competing marketers. In specific, how wonderful would it be in the major coral aquaculturers and retailers (ie- Atlanttis, Fragfarmer, ORA, etc etc etc) created an organization to guage, consolidate, and recognize certain corals. A "Sunset Monti" would be credentialed as a "Sunset Monti", and would recieve the approriate documentation. Other could join in, pending they follow the guidelines. This way, there would be no more "brand names". This is how aoological animasl (inlcuding corals) are managed in the professional zoological community. I dont think it reasonable, because zoos and aquariums arent in direct competition with one another, while the marketers above are.

If you're asking me for a solution, I can suggest that only. Instituion of that is beyond my control, though.

What is it I am exactly failing to do, when I put the cart before the horse?
 
I get your point, and have gotten it for some time.

You think its silly to care about funny named pieces, that are overpriced, unscientific, and hype for pieces that aren't really special to begin with.

In not so many words, I believe you would have us do away with all this and go to a purely scientific approach, naming it per it Latin designation.....hence forth, a Tortusa is a Tortusa is a Tortusa.

Review the thread, nobody ever stated we shouldn't do that. In fact, I believe that should be what normally happens.

Here is where you are missing the point, for those that lineage matters and not only my frustration, but my disapointment.

So lets ignore the money aspect, as those in it for the money are here today and gone tomorrow. The odds of them crashing thier tank and loosing thier "cash crop" are pretty good.

I also mentioned what makes an LE an "LE" is flawed too so lets ignore that as well.

All that is left to lineage.......is what is truely important.

Some of the very things you are using to "prove" your point are the very things that make lineage important to us. I explained I could understand why lineage isn't important to those who have treated this as a individual sport rather than a team sport, only in it for themselves or just plain getting into the hobby.

This hobby has grown to the level it has today because people worked together, shared what worked and what didn't with each other. They traded pieces and were an interconnected family because of this.

I hear a lot of talk of certifications, papers, pedigrees and what not. If you need that, your going about it the wrong way and in it for the wrong reasons.

Does lineage matter to me? Yes!!!

Why?

Before LE's got a bad name, before people needed "proof", "qaruntees", "certifications" there was "faith", "trust", "respect" and "honor".

Lineage is important to me and many other whom I respect, admire, but most of all call my friends because of those things.

A sense of community is something that is hard to find these days, and really isn't something that can be written on a certificate of authenticity.

To "prove" lineage one is to have faith in someone who has the same passion you do and look out for each other.

So everyones talking about the Icefire Echinata, Icefire this Icefire that, gotta get me a piece.

Yeah, I have it........for over a year now and its my favorite piece. Why? Because I waited for two months for the thing and got it from someone whom I respect and call a friend and am proud to have it, Thanks Karl. Many of the pieces I have either came from someone who I know or respect.....but for the most part trust.

This lineage thing goes much farther than garuntees, proof, and absolutes that in doing so misses the mark completly on WHY it is important to us, what it has given to us, connecting us with one another.

I about being apart of something bigger than yourself and being part/connect with the reefing culture and community that is what lineage is all about.

We will fix the flat tire later. You see, my disapointment lies in the fact that you seemed determined to eliminate this. Though no one has stated ALL should be treated this way, you seem to have a vendeta as if some LE coral did you wrong or as a poor reefer starting out, you couldn't afford the "tuity fruity" that you desired so much, because of this you have made it your duty to exterminate all LE's as there is no room in the hobby for such a thing and have vowed that it will never happen to another.

I do hope you realize I am not debating the topic with you and am really only taking the time to write to help you understand WHY it is important to some, nothing more.......

:)
 
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I do undertstand your point, and wish it could be true. Unfortunately, I dont see it progressing in the same direction you do. I see corruption, fraud, and disparity coming from it, not community. I do feel an organized "consortium" would be the defintion of community. Heck, look at the AKC or ISIS- they have immense community within them. Nonetheless, I do really, honestly hope I am wrong with this. But, I have a difficult time really believing that.

Thank you for clarifying your point.

-Jeremy
 
I just stumbled onto this thread, and there is really good debating going back and forth(Friendly Also). Someone on one of the first pages mentioned when does it no longer become an LE which is true, something could only be limited edition when there is a limited quantity. If some of these people have distributed it to others when does it just become another common coral, or certified or recognized as tank raised? I dont know if that makes sense, but im just interested and this thread feels like the question would fit in best.
 
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