Dosing Vinegar

[HighlandReefer]

Also, the amount of vinegar you need to add like with vodka is proportionate to the nitrate level in your tank. If you have high nitrate levels it will take much more vinegar to reduce the level and when your nitrate drops to zero you should cut way back, perhaps by half as is recommend with vodka dosing. If your nitrate level is low & you have cyano problems, then it will take much less vinegar to eliminate it.

 

[bebereef]

Good point!

I will keep an eye and move slowly.

 

[DustinB]

I found that switching to 75% vodka / 25% vinegar reduced cyano, but not completely eliminated. Going to try the 50/50 and see what happens.

 

[Kataro]

I've been dosing 12ml of vinegar and 4 drops of MB7 into my tank. The Cyano is still on the retreat ^^, Sadly the flatworm problem is still raging strong!

 

[tmz]

I dose 24ml of 80 proof vodka and 64 ml of vinegar daily for 550 gallons and have done so for about a year. I was dosing just vodka at 32 ml for about 8 months but went 75% vodka /25% vinegar in an effort to reduce/ eliminate a small amount of cyano. It abated but not completely. There is still a very small amount in one tank with a sand bed.Recently, I bumped up the vinegar to 50/50 with the vodka and the cyano increased. Every tank and system is different but overall I think it's a good idea to use some proportion of both vodka and vinegar for the sake of encouraging bacterial diversity .

 

[CUZ]

Hi, I've been dosing vodka for a good 3-4 months now. I've been getting some good ol' Cyano on my sandbed and rock despites the high flow in my tank. I am dosing only 1.5ml of Vodka 80% proof to my 150G, and dosing Reef-Actif on the tank.

I've read that vinegar to replace the vodka might help elimnate my cyano problem. My question is, is there anything I need to mix w/ the vinegar (like kalk)? Or can I just dose Vinegar 4-8x the amount of vodka I'm currently dosing straight from the bottle to my tank

so if the op was dosing with 80% vodka wouldn't that change their vinegar ratio to 4:1??

 

[bertoni]

The usual dosing amounts are for 80 proof vodka, which is 40% alcohol by volume. If someone is using 160 proof alcohol, the ratio would be 4:1.

 

[Newreeflady]

Studies have shown that sand beds will add to the nitrate in aquariums without adding carbon sources. Once you add carbon sources to the sand beds, then they can keep up with the nitrate load, especially in tanks with lots of fish. The solid carbon polymers recently arrived on the scene, seem to do a good job in sand beds as well as vinegar according to the research.

Hi Cliff,

Can you point me to this? Are they using carbon sources in conjunction with the sand bed in separate parts of the system, or actually mixing they polymer into the sand? What about with an existing sand bed? Is there any evidence that the polymers are superiour to just dosing vinegar?

Thanks!
Angela

 

[bertoni]

I think it's possible for sandbeds to add nitrate to the water column, but I don't believe that always happens.

 

[tmz]

Hi Cliff,

Can you point me to this? Are they using carbon sources in conjunction with the sand bed in separate parts of the system, or actually mixing they polymer into the sand? What about with an existing sand bed? Is there any evidence that the polymers are superiour to just dosing vinegar?

Thanks!
Angela

Cliiff is on vacation, I'm sure he'll answer when he returns.

An important claimed feature of the pellets is that the anaerobic digestion of the polymers is localized to the pellets, thus preventing the carbohydrates/polymers and associated digestive activities and breakdown products from diffusing throughout the tank. I'm personally skeptical of this claim and more so with dispersal of the pellets in the sand bed , gravel, etc

Polymers/carbohydrates go to monomers/sugars in the anaerobic digestive process.Vodka (ethanol) or vinegar (acetic acid) skip the anaerobic bacterial digestive and/or fermentation processes needed to break down the carbohydrates and sugars. They start further down the digestive chain.Which is "better" vodka,vinegar or pellets is debatable but personally my corals react poorly( darkening and recission) to sugar( glucose, fructose, sucrose) and Cliff has noted some studies noting ill effects on corals from glucose.

 

[jimnrose]

I'm also fighting cyano and have just noticed the white slime in my overflow box & removed it. I'm dosing 100ml for my 150 gal system. This dosage raztre is from Randy's articel 'High pH: causes & cures'. Boomer said I should drop my pH from 8.4 to 8.1 & Randys article says '1mL of distilled white vinegar per gallon to achieve an initial pH drop of about 0.3 pH units'.
I'm dosing at 0.6mL/gal. The cyano has changed color from red to a dull orange and the growth has reduced but still on the substrate. Not sure if I should deal with the white slime or reduce the vinegar dose rate.
Jim

 

[scubasteve06]

FWIW I think all the ratio's telling people 8:1 vinegar to vodka are wrong. The original VGV formula states 84% vodka 10% vinegar and 6% glucose http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1632780

The author of the probiotics article in coral mag uses 225ml of vodka and 25ml of vinegar and 15ml of glucose in his solution he draws his daily dose from. That is a 9:1 ratio of vodka to vinegar.

here is the article in coral mag starting on page 61 I have posted http://coralmagazine.coverleaf.com/coral/20100910?sub_id=DszPBGS23GCmQ#pg61

and for those that don't want to read the whole article which I highly recommend here is the DIY section that Dr. Murray Camp recommends when dosing carbon sources.http://coralmagazine.coverleaf.com/coral/20100910?sub_id=DszPBGS23GCmQ#pg70

And btw I don't mean to say anyone is wrong. These are all starting points with carbon dosing, and that the carbon make up of vodka and vinegar may very well be 8:1 but vinegar is a different type of liquid than vodka. It is an acid Vodka is not acid and I think this is where the mix up is coming in. You are not trying to substitute the vinegar for the vodka dose, the vinegar is an addition to the vodka dose. Most white vinegar is 5% acid and the vodka that the author of the article bases his dosing off of is 80 proof, 40% alcohol which is where I think people are getting 8:1 from. 5% acid/40 alcohol= 8:1

 

[scubasteve06]

Also vinegar is an acid like I said before. Well our aquariums Ph is far from acidic, if you go substituting vinegar (which is 5% acid) for vodka at an 8:1 ratio, you may very well end up bringing your Ph down to a base level or more. I think this is why it is said to use 84% vodka(ethanol) 10% vinegar(acid) and 6% sugar. Now obviously if people have truly substituted 8 parts vinegar for 1 part vodka and used this formula with no negative results then, IMO there may be nothing wrong with it, short term. Long term though, you go adding a carbon source which is acidic by nature and it will eventually drag down your Ph enough to cause major problems, maybe even a total crash of your system. Dr. Camp mentions this in his article, saying that there 'may' be a long term effect where the Ph is brought down by dosing vinegar, VGV, or VSV mixture and to test the Ph level regularly and if it is seen to go down, then a small 10% water change would bring it back to normal.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, I feel the need to clarify several things.

The 8:1 ratio is purely letting people know that 80 proof vodka contains 8 times more organic matter than does the normal distilled vinegar available in the US.

80 proof vodka is 40% organic. Vinegar at 5% acidity (the US standard) is 5% organic matter. Hence 40:5 = 8:1.

Now, that said, it should only be used as a very rough guideline when swapping from one to the other. The ability of any organism to consume them and the energy they get from them will depend on many factors. It is just a rough guide. It is not intended to be any more than that. Definitely not a recommended ratio when using both together, but rather a swapping ratio. I personally know of no convincing reason to think using more than one type of organic carbon at a time is better than using only one type.

On the acid part, I also want to clarify. Yes, vinegar will have an initial pH lowering effect, and then as it is metabolized to CO2, there is even more pH lowering.

Vodka (or sugar or any organic) may seem like it has a smaller pH effect, but it does not. It simply waits for all of its effect to come after conversion to CO2, but overall it has an equally large pH lowering effect.

The net equation for vinegar (acetic acid) consumption is:

CH3CO2H + 2O2 ---> 2CO2 + 2 H2O

The net equation for vodka (ethanol) is:

CH3Ch2OH + 5/2 O2 ---> 2CO2 + 2H2O

So the net effect in each case is (and ONLY IS) the addition of two molecules of CO2 for each molecule of organic consumed.


The effect of the initial acid from vinegar is lost in the process (or, more correctly, is gained back later in the process).

CH3CO2H ---> CH3CO2- + H+ (there's that H+ which initially lowers pH)

BUT...

if you look at the metabolism of the acetate (CH3CO2-), it produces OH-:

CH3CO2- + 2O2 ---> 2CO2 + H2O + OH-

an that OH- exactly offsets the initially added H+.

So there is no more long term impact of pH using vinegar than in using vodka.

In all such cases, the pH effect may be wholly or partially offset with more aeration or using limewater.

 

[scubasteve06]

OK, I feel the need to clarify several things.

The 8:1 ratio is purely letting people know that 80 proof vodka contains 8 times more organic matter than does the normal distilled vinegar available in the US.

80 proof vodka is 40% organic. Vinegar at 5% acidity (the US standard) is 5% organic matter. Hence 40:5 = 8:1.

Now, that said, it should only be used as a very rough guideline when swapping from one to the other. The ability of any organism to consume them and the energy they get from them will depend on many factors. It is just a rough guide. It is not intended to be any more than that. Definitely not a recommended ratio when using both together, but rather a swapping ratio. I personally know of no convincing reason to think using more than one type of organic carbon at a time is better than using only one type.

On the acid part, I also want to clarify. Yes, vinegar will have an initial pH lowering effect, and then as it is metabolized to CO2, there is even more pH lowering.

Vodka (or sugar or any organic) may seem like it has a smaller pH effect, but it does not. It simply waits for all of its effect to come after conversion to CO2, but overall it has an equally large pH lowering effect.

The net equation for vinegar (acetic acid) consumption is:

CH3CO2H + 2O2 ---> 2CO2 + 2 H2O

The net equation for vodka (ethanol) is:

CH3Ch2OH + 5/2 O2 ---> 2CO2 + 2H2O

So the net effect in each case is (and ONLY IS) the addition of two molecules of CO2 for each molecule of organic consumed.


The effect of the initial acid from vinegar is lost in the process (or, more correctly, is gained back later in the process).

CH3CO2H ---> CH3CO2- + H+ (there's that H+ which initially lowers pH)

BUT...

if you look at the metabolism of the acetate (CH3CO2-), it produces OH-:

CH3CO2- + 2O2 ---> 2CO2 + H2O + OH-

an that OH- exactly offsets the initially added H+.

So there is no more long term impact of pH using vinegar than in using vodka.

In all such cases, the pH effect may be wholly or partially offset with more aeration or using limewater.

Thank you Randy for coming in a confirming my suspicions on why the 8:1 ratio is what people have been telling each other. I also had wondered about Ph swing when dosing vinegar seeing as it is acidic. Obviously initially there is a small swing, but it seems to stablize after a while.

I wasn't trying to say anyone was wrong, but I thought that giving people the correct information would be helpful, and providing the original VGV formula of 84%ethanol(vodka) 10%vinegar and 6%glucose would be the best solution. Once again I wasn't saying anyone was wrong just trying to clarify things.

As you said this carbon dosing 'guidelines' are just that guidelines, and if something works for you then the old addage always proves right; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!":lol2:

Edit added for response in bold: The reason people are using vinegar also in their liquid carbon dosing is that is seem to of proven that if vinegar is made available in the tank then the cyanobacteria outbreaks some experience with just vodka dosing, helps to combat it. I have been talking with Cliff about the benefits of using multiple bacterial strains and he is shedding some light on the subject by showing that there isn't really any added benefit to an already established system, but when starting a new system it would be effective to introduce multiple strains to effectively jump start the bacterial colonization process in the marine environment.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Thanks for the clarifications Randy. It's nice to see your input again.

Are you currently dosing vodka and/or vinegar in your system still?

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"Are they using carbon sources in conjunction with the sand bed in separate parts of the system, or actually mixing they polymer into the sand? What about with an existing sand bed? Is there any evidence that the polymers are superiour to just dosing vinegar?

Thanks!
Angela"

Sorry I missed your post while I was on vacation.

There was research completed for the purpose of the PCL biopolymer patent for the Instant Ocean product. My remarks came from that paper. When PCL pellets were mixed into course sand beds (4-6 cm in diameter), a good increase in nitrate reduction was found when compared to all the types of sand beds without PCL added. Finer sand beds showed little effect from mixing in the PCL.

IMHO, I have not seen enough evidence from simply reading the threads using all the various biopellets that they are superior to just dosing vodka or vinegar. In fact there are an alarming number of bacterial blooms reported from using some the the biopellets especially when trying to reduce higher levels of nitrate.

IME, with dosing vinegar to reduce high nitrate levels (80 ppm) I did not have any bacterial blooms and after the nitrate was reduced to zero, I increased the amount of vinegar I added to increase the alk & calcium output using kalk water. From the threads I have read here on RC very few hobbyists experienced bacterial blooms when using vinegar. In one case where vinegar did cause bacterial blooms, a large overdose occurred. After the bacterial blooms cleared from the large overdose, everything was fine. Hobbyists have added larger amounts of vinegar to help reduce pH when kalk overdoses have occurred and none that I am aware experienced bacterial blooms.

IMHO, you can control the dosage rate of vinegar much easier than the biopellets and the cost of vinegar is cheaper.

As far as my statement regarding anaerobic nitrate reduction in sand beds, I believe that based on some research I have read that perhaps vinegar may be more effective to increase bacterial populations for nitrate reduction in sand beds vs vodka. Perhaps under aerobic conditions vodka may have the edge over vinegar based again on some waste water management studies regarding nitrate reduction. Again, this is speculation on my part based on waste water mangement studes which is not a direct correlation necessarily.

 

[tmz]

I wasn't trying to say anyone was wrong, but I thought that giving people the correct information would be helpful, and providing the original VGV formula of 84%ethanol(vodka) 10%vinegar and 6%glucose would be the best solution. Once again I wasn't saying anyone waswrong just trying to clarify things.

Personally, I'd skip the glucose and adjust the vinegar /vodka mix toward vinegar to a point where cyanobacteria abated.

 

[scubasteve06]

I wasn't trying to say anyone was wrong, but I thought that giving people the correct information would be helpful, and providing the original VGV formula of 84%ethanol(vodka) 10%vinegar and 6%glucose would be the best solution. Once again I wasn't saying anyone waswrong just trying to clarify things.

Personally, I'd skip the glucose and adjust the vinegar /vodka mix toward vinegar to a point where cyanobacteria abated.

I agree with you too, I have heard too many times that sugars worsened coloration and caused RTN in SPS corals. So if we take the 6% out of the equation then the vinegar would be 16% (duh) I think I am already there as I am using a 6.5:1 ratio of vodka to vinegar. I had initially 240ml's of 40% Vodka and 37.5ml's of 5% acid white distilled vinegar in my carbon solution that I draw my dose from every day.

Cliff I agree with you also on the vinegar point you made about it being more efficient in combatting cyano and algae blooms in general. Since adding vinegar to my vodka dosing in the ratio as stated above in my post, I have seen the GHA I had growing on my rocks that had overtaken my coraline start to turn white. I've heard that this is an indication that it will soon be gone from the system. I've also adjusted my riser pipe on my skimmer one half turn to skim a bit wetter. I'm getting much darker colored skim than I did when skimming drier and much more of it. It is also very thick and it stinks the entire house up when I pour it into the toilet and flush it:fun5::lmao:

Edit added: Also Cliff in response to your statement about having bacterial blooms and algae outbreaks when using the Bio-Pellets, I think the cause of this is the user is saying to him/herself, that if they use more of the pellets then the result will be better. Of course in carbon dosing this is a big no no to start of high, and it causes white 'stringy' strands to form, cloudy water, and system crash in the worst cases. What are your expanded thoughts on my thoughts about using too much of the pellets to start with? Do you think that this can cause the same results as dosing too much liquid carbon?

 

[Stuginski]

Hi fellows reefers....

Taking a ride in this topic...:rollface:

I´m starting new system and I have intentions to keep my nitrates and phosphates low with vodka + vinegar doses (75/25% Like you TOM)

What is the start dose that you recomend?????

Best regards

D.

 

[tmz]

I wouldn't start it until the tank was fully cylced and then only if the tank held NO3 over 2 to 5ppm.

Each tank is different in many ways and doses may vary accordingly.Starting slow is very important. A good skimmer is a must.

This article by Genetics lays out a start up method for vodka which you can use for vodka and vinegar. Just remember each ml of (80 proof/40% ethanol and 60% water) vodka roughly equates to 8ml of white vinegar which is only 5% acetic acid and 95% water.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php