Drip acclimation can kill

[deangelr]

What do you think about adding an NH3 binding reagent while the bag is acclimating..?again I am not using a QT.

 

[deangelr]

I mean it all makes sense..

PH drops due to gas exchange rates in the closed bag during shipping (buildiup of CO2 due to respiration of the fish).. As the PH drops this means there is an increase in the number of free H+ ions and therefore un ionized NH3 wants to join with H+ and form NH4+ (non toxic ammonium). Fish is safe in the bag.

When the bag is opened, gas exchange occurs quikly and the PH rises. This takes away those free H+ ions and turns NH4+ back to to NH3. Dead fish. Chemistry right?

I guess I am just a little ****ed I spent 2 hours acclimating an anemone a few months ago that ate the dust. It was completely evicerated upon arrival and looked that way thourough the acclimation. I guess it would have been beneficial to have put it in the tank sooner.. (Its health did improve after placement in the DT, but only temporarily)

 

[Sk8r]

There's no reason you can't use media during the process: it just gets a little cramped in a bag. If on the other hand you have a small polystyrene bucket you can use as an intermediate step, preset at the right salinity, it gives you all kinds of spare time to make adjustments and transit your specimen at leisure. The main thing is getting it out of the bag water: then you can safely drip to your heart's content. It works with inverts as well as fish, including corals: in the case of corals, make it also your anti-parasite dip, and you're doing two operations at once.
The reason we recommend fullblown 4 week qt with fish is because of the life cycle of the predominant parasite, marine ich, which hides in the gills and lurks in sandbeds. But I understand the problems of students and trying to find room in the closet for a bucket.
You might find additional info in the chemistry forum.

 

[NickC5FE]

Sk8r-excellent advice! I ALMOST lost mt Yellow tang the first night due to over dripping it..A friend had told me to drip over the course of over an hour and after i did, the tang started bugging out that night in the QT. I shut off all lights, and left him alone and he pulled through....

I just got two true clowns and i dipped the bag for 15 minutes in tank water then opened and put water/fish in a container. I removed some water and then added tank water every 15 minutes for 2 times, then removed some water and did it twice more. These guys are doing great.....Dont think i will chance the drip again........

 

[Sk8r]

I might mention too---the commonest salinity for inverts and corals is 1.024-6. I keep mine at 1.025 to give me leeway either direction. And of course I know the salinity of the sources I deal with.

With fish shipments, and with fish-only (no inverts) tanks, a more common salinity is 1.021. Fish are often shipped at that salinity. So if you're fish-only, the chances of a fish coming in AT your salinity are high, and 1.021 is a good 'setting' for a fish-only if you don't have inverts. If you have a fuge, however, you should be setting it at 1.024-6, and expecting to adjust salinity of incoming fish: in qt, evaporation can do it handily.

 

[deangelr]

can you post some pics of suggestions on settup up and easy QT tank..

Its not that I dont have room.. I dont have the time or cash.

I am imagining a 10g-20g or watever tank with water a heater and perhaps a sponge for filtration.. If you are leaving your fish in the QT for a month, wouldnt that require constant water changes? Is it necessary to leave them for that long? or could you just adjust them to the salinity of the DT and give dip over a few days?

Also this means a new

 

[deangelr]

And when I said ammonia binder I was talking like a few drops of amquel or prime.

*sorry for all the back to back posts my mind wanders

 

[gweston]

And when I said ammonia binder I was talking like a few drops of amquel or prime.

*sorry for all the back to back posts my mind wanders

I was thinking the same thing.... use amquel. It would take a very very tiny amount. Maybe a drop or two I'd think.

I usually pour the critter from the bag into a specimen container. I immediately start up an air stone to oxygenate, and immediately add some tank water to increase water the volume if it is too shallow (I try to minimize the amount). I then acclimate for a period of time depending on what the critter is. The container sits in the quarantine tank, so the temp of the tank water and the specimen container slowly come to equilibrium. I periodically pour in a bit of water. The old bucket or specimen container drip method works too.. but I don't like to use the bucket method in winter as the house is much cooler.

The method seems to be working ok for me. But.. then again I have yet to get anything mail order. At most my critters sit in a bag for 1-2 hours during the trip from the fish store. With the new big tank going in soon, I will likely go mail order. I may rethink my methodology for that case.

 

[katarina]

I'm old school (LFS employee in the mid-80's while in high school), when I acclimate I float for 15 minutes, empty bag contents into specimen container and add about 1/3 cup of tank water every 15 minutes (removing 1/3 cup prior to and dumping down the drain) three times for an hour long process. I do not put specimen cup water in my DT. Seems to work for me so far, do it for all fish and inverts.

I have 20 years in fish but only 6 months in salt water. I have always used the same process as above.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

The ammonia build up makes sense and I can see why you would want to get the fish out of the bag quickly, especially if it has been in there for a prolonged period of time.
But fish are not that susceptible to osmotic shock.
I have taken fish from a 1.025 DT and put them in a bucket of de-chlorinated tap water for 5 minutes and then right back to the DT.
It completely eradicated the ich on the fish (a coral beauty) but did not harm the fish at all and she is still swimming in my tank today. The freshwater dip was administered over 5 years ago.
I have done the same with tangs and had similar results.
A swing of 3 or 4 points of SG is not going to damage a fish.
If it did estuaries and inlets would be littered with dead fish.

 

[deangelr]

I dont think that is very sound advice.. Fish are not that succeptable to osmotic shock..? Im sure there is paper after paper out there talking about how bad osmotic shoc. The whole thing sK8r is telling us is that osmotic shock is #1 in the acclimation procedure after watching for ammonia.

just because your fish lived doesnt mean there wasnt significant damage.


Fish that live in estuaries or other environments have adapted to those conditions. The fish in this hobby are generally from more stable salinities.

This is all new info to me as well on the acclimation procedure, but given sound evidence I am open to new procedures.

 

[Sk8r]

The question is, I suspect, how long the fish's kidneys have to cope with a drastic change, and you and I agree, I think, that osmotic shock is not the killer that ammonia is, but it is still worth taking into account: I don't like to subject a new fish to more than .001 salinity difference, though I know they can survive more. When I was newer at the marine thing, I had a topoff accident with the whole tank: lowered the sg several points, and discovered it when I got back from a 3-day trip. I ham-handedly and ill-advisedly corrected it over 2 hours and everything survived, except maybe some bacteria. Even the shrimp and snails came through---no credit to me for forgetting to plug in the autotopoff after servicing it! It was also significant that I was LOWERING the salinity, not raising it, which can be much more stressful. [When you treat in hypo, for instance, you take 48 hours to lower the salinity to 1.009.]
My point being, if you're going to make a mistake, indeed, do make it with the salinity, not with the presence of ammonia, which is just not a good thing to have loose, and which is present in bag water. I've personally had discosoma, bubble coral, sponge, snails, worms, asterinas, aiptasia, and 52 other species of invert survive a fairly definite cycle (ammonia), so yes, life is tenacious.

But when a fish has just been through what fishes go through in collection, distribution, transport, and sales, it's definitely ready for an easy ride, which is really easy for us to give---so why not?

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

I dont think that is very sound advice.. Fish are not that succeptable to osmotic shock..? Im sure there is paper after paper out there talking about how bad osmotic shoc. The whole thing sK8r is telling us is that osmotic shock is #1 in the acclimation procedure after watching for ammonia.

just because your fish lived doesnt mean there wasnt significant damage.


Fish that live in estuaries or other environments have adapted to those conditions. The fish in this hobby are generally from more stable salinities.

This is all new info to me as well on the acclimation procedure, but given sound evidence I am open to new procedures.

Sorry to burst your bubble. (pun intended)
But I didn't invent freshwater dips for parasitic eradication.
The fish can handle it but the parasites cannot.
If there was significant damage why is the fish still happy and healthy 5 years later?
Fish are fish whether they are in our tanks or in the wild, a slight change in SG will do no harm.

 

[Sk8r]

To set up a cheap qt, ideally something you can see through, so you can watch for outbreaks. Just a bare tank, and the cheapest air pump, cheapest filter: I just wad up a thumb-sized bit of activated carbon and wrap it in polyester pillow stuffing (cheaper than filter medium) and stuff it in the box: you can change that daily if need be. Mark a line for your fill line to keep the salinity steady. You don't need a light ---light is for us, not the fish: a piece of lighting grid can be your jump screen. You will need a heater. And a pvc elbow for a hideyhole so the fish can have a retreat.

 

[JRWOHLER]

Thanks there is a lot of great information.

LFS usually keep their salinity lower from what I have found....close to the 1.020 +-.002. Lower salinity means lower salt cost.

You can fresh water dip fish but not shrimp or other inverts. All has to do with the physiology of a more complex animal.

 

[deangelr]

The ammonia build up makes sense and I can see why you would want to get the fish out of the bag quickly, especially if it has been in there for a prolonged period of time.
But fish are not that susceptible to osmotic shock.
I have taken fish from a 1.025 DT and put them in a bucket of de-chlorinated tap water for 5 minutes and then right back to the DT.
It completely eradicated the ich on the fish (a coral beauty) but did not harm the fish at all and she is still swimming in my tank today. The freshwater dip was administered over 5 years ago.
I have done the same with tangs and had similar results.
A swing of 3 or 4 points of SG is not going to damage a fish.
If it did estuaries and inlets would be littered with dead fish.

Its ok i forgive you.. RC in general has been a bubble burst lately...

 

[jamgar]

so would a 10 gallon tank be large enough to quarantine a small juvenile tang for four weeks or would a larger tank be required

 

[Tracey2]

When you guys open the bag and start the drip is the bag now outside the DT? How do you keep the temp consistent?

 

[Reverend Reefer]

i've been told, even by some LFS, never to put their water in my tank. i think some of them, especially in the fish only tanks, run copper as a prophylactic? so putting the copper water in your reef display tank is likely not a very good idea.

 

[iamwrasseman]

i have two different types of acclimating .
one hour drip after fifteen minutes of temp acclimation for fish that have been purchased here close to my house
shipped fish get fifteen minutes of temp acclimation and then go directly into the display tank .
many of my wrasses are far to delicate to QT as they simply dont deal very well with the added stress of the bare QT and they have done much better going directly into the DT . i do dose with prazi pro for internal and external parasites right in the DT . i would not recommend that everyone skip the QT as it does have its place but with the very delicate wrasses they do much better getting into a reef setting as soon as possible .