drummereef's 180g in-wall build

[110galreef]

I get a dark reddish brown film on my frag tank & back of the DT.....
Is this the same stuff you have? What is this?
This also seems to grwo in sooner than the other film on acrylic

The rest of the display is just a light whitish/light green film.

 

[dzhuo]

Brett,
This might have to do with how much bacteria you are removing when changing out the carbon. Carbon's ability to trap and remove impurity is more or less mechanical (unlike GFO, for example, the absorption of phosphate is a chemical reaction). I think carbon is more or less very efficient filter socks. The stuff that carbon traps are still in your tank. Carbon itself doesn't break down anything so technically these organic matters trapped inside the carbon block will continue to decay. It's only when you remove the carbon, you are removing those organic matters; it's like when you change your filter socks. It turns out that carbon itself is a breeding bed for bacteria. They feed on those organic matter trap inside the little compartment of the carbon block. When they feed and grew, they produce a substance that seals the compartment preventing anything leaking out of the carbon. I asked Cliff about this process in the chemical forum and I wonder how much bacteria we are removing when we switch out old carbon. Depends on how much carbon we are using, we could be throwing out a significant percentage of bacteria colony? Could we be reducing our biological filtering capacity which lead to temporally spike of algae or cyano grow? Or could we distributing and releasing lots of bacteria to the water column when we change carbon?

 

[dzhuo]

I've run carbon 24/7 for months now and just recently, in the last couple days, took it offline to see if here was a difference.

Yes give it a try. I already took mine offline last Sunday. I have been running 24x7 ROX prior to that as well and I am not happy how sterile my tank has been so far.

 

[110galreef]

dzhou....

If the carbon is basically trapping & leatching then wouldn't we want to swap out the carbon realatively soon, like weekly?

I thought we were supposed to go 2 weeks at least if not 3-4 weeks?

Sounds like you have no carbon now? Also what are you running? GFO or biopellets?

 

[drummereef]

110g - ROX is a lot more aggressive than the Lignite I started using again. ROX has less dust which is better but the grain size is much smaller. Lignite are granules which are larger so they don't tumble as easy nor get caught in the foam blocks in the reactor. I figured it would be less aggressive to run 1 cup of Lignite vs the ROX I was previously. Could be the bacteria built up in the carbon yes, but I still think the carbon (at least in my system) is overly aggressive towards the corals. Almost harsh to their skeletons and tissue if that makes sense...? At least in an extremely nutrient deficient system like mine is at the moment.

 

[dzhuo]

110g,
That's my understanding as well. Like basically, what prevents the stuff trap by carbon to continue to break down / decay and eventually leaking back to the tank? It's not much different than using a filter sock. But the way Cliff explained this to me is the bacteria which feeds on the organic matter inside the carbon produce a substance that seal these carbon compartment so nothing gets out. The process is called the Extracellular Polymer Production and here are a couple simulations of how it works:

http://vimeo.com/13528731
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q26YhisTg7U&feature=related

Sounds like you have no carbon now? Also what are you running? GFO or biopellets?

I am no longer running GFO as many weeks ago. I just took carbon offline as well last Sunday. I am not running biopellets either. Just a fuge (only with a little bit of macro 5 hours a day) and a skimmer (ATB 840).

 

[iwishtofish]

Sorry to interrupt...

Sorry about the hijack - it was inadvertant, I swear!

 

[drummereef]

Sorry about the hijack - it was inadvertant, I swear!

What? No worries. Your questions, topics, queries are all welcome here. :thumbsup: I just remembered something I had thought about in the last couple days and wanted to get some feedback before I forgot about it.

 

[drummereef]

110g,
That's my understanding as well. Like basically, what prevents the stuff trap by carbon to continue to break down / decay and eventually leaking back to the tank? It's not much different than using a filter sock. But the way Cliff explained this to me is the bacteria which feeds on the organic matter inside the carbon produce a substance that seal these carbon compartment so nothing gets out. The process is called the Extracellular Polymer Production and here are a couple simulations of how it works:

http://vimeo.com/13528731
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q26YhisTg7U&feature=related

So if this is true then the idea of carbon detoxifying coral warfare is a myth. I always thought there was some sort of chemical neutralization of those toxins or something. If anything I would think the skimmer would be more effective in regards to removing these. Wonder if there's been any conclusive studies as to why it's vitally necessary to run carbon 24/7 - other than being a general water clarifier.

 

[dzhuo]

So if this is true then the idea of carbon detoxifying coral warfare is a myth.

Hm. I thought the toxins are being trap by the carbon thus helping coral warfare.

Wonder if there's been any conclusive studies as to why it's vitally necessary to run carbon 24/7 - other than being a general water clarifier.

I thought the suggestion to run carbon 24x7 isn't mandatory? Vitally necessary seems pretty strong. :eek2:

 

[iwishtofish]

Regarding the use of carbon 24/7, I found this opinion to be interesting, and you guys (gals) may also:

http://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/does-a-reef-tank-need-carbon/

I'm sure someone can pick it apart, though. The gist of it is that carbon is good at removing organics. It doesn't really touch on the subject of removal of coral toxins.

 

[drummereef]

Plus less stuff to replace the more $$$ for fish & corals!

That's what I'm talking about! :beer:

I get a dark reddish brown film on my frag tank & back of the DT.....
Is this the same stuff you have? What is this?
This also seems to grwo in sooner than the other film on acrylic

The rest of the display is just a light whitish/light green film.

Can you get a pic of it? Hard to tell without seeing it.

Hm. I thought the toxins are being trap by the carbon thus helping coral warfare.

I thought the suggestion to run carbon 24x7 isn't mandatory? Vitally necessary seems pretty strong. :eek2:

Yes, but the toxins still wouldn't be neutralized as water is still passing over/through them. Seems to me the skimmer would be much more efficient at getting any toxin out of the water column by physical removal.

I've been in this hobby for close to 15 years and everywhere you see/read information regarding carbon as a "must have" for your coral reef. Don't run a reef without it. It's like an infomercial for carbon. :lol: Honestly I've never run a tank without carbon, but I've also never thought to myself "why" until now. Even Randy in the Chem Forum always recommends carbon 24/7. But why? If we have alternate methods of removing organics, perhaps even more efficient than physical removal methods (such as carbon) then what really is the point? Water clarity? I have plenty of that... These bacteria driven systems are extremely clear, at least mine is. More clear than when I just ran carbon and gfo.

Regarding the use of carbon 24/7, I found this opinion to be interesting, and you guys (gals) may also:

http://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/does-a-reef-tank-need-carbon/

I'm sure someone can pick it apart, though. The gist of it is that carbon is good at removing organics. It doesn't really touch on the subject of removal of coral toxins.

Thanks! I'll read through that one.

 

[drummereef]

So the article points to "organics" as to why carbon is necessary. Organics being "complex metabolic compounds including phenols, organic acids, proteins, fats, carbohydrates, and hormones". But on the other hand if you have an overabundance of organics in the aquarium then you can have foaming in the sump, oily film on water surface, hair algae, cyano etc... Some of which is hard to determine as to the source of the issue since N & P can lead to hair algae and cyano themselves. And excess proteins and oily films can be from undersized/inefficient skimmers etc. Hmmm.... This is far too confusing. :lol:

Good read though, lots of info there.

 

[dzhuo]

I've been in this hobby for close to 15 years and everywhere you see/read information regarding carbon as a "must have" for your coral reef. Don't run a reef without it.

That's very interesting because none of my prior tanks ran carbon or GFO. I blame my current struggle to them. I guess we will see now that I am going back to the basic with just skimmer and fuge.

 

[Greenmaster]

.... Could be the bacteria built up in the carbon yes, but I still think the carbon (at least in my system) is overly aggressive towards the corals. Almost harsh to their skeletons and tissue if that makes sense...? At least in an extremely nutrient deficient system like mine is at the moment.

Carbon can and usually is a place where bacteria populate. Carbon is also a great chemical absorber, many chemicals that we don't want in our system, but it also pulls out some trace elements from our system as well (perhaps why you are noticing the corals being unhappy). I'm no expert by any means but I don't think you want to run carbon all the time...
Times I would use carbon are:
When gluing anything (eg. frags, rocks together)
When adding a new item that hasn't been in a tank before (eg. new pumps, new plumbing, new structure... basically anything that may release trace amounts of "harmless" chemical off-gasses)
When keeping softies/leathers.
When keeping a creature that when it dies it can poison the tank.
When someone in the tank seems unhappy/sick.
After dosing of meds is complete or using a targeted chemical to kill something.

This isn't necessarily a full list... just what I could come up with.

 

[drummereef]

That's very interesting because none of my prior tanks ran carbon or GFO. I blame my current struggle to them. I guess we will see now that I am going back to the basic with just skimmer and fuge.

Keep us posted on the progress dzhuo.

Carbon can and usually is a place where bacteria populate. Carbon is also a great chemical absorber, many chemicals that we don't want in our system, but it also pulls out some trace elements from our system as well (perhaps why you are noticing the corals being unhappy). I'm no expert by any means but I don't think you want to run carbon all the time...
Times I would use carbon are:
When gluing anything (eg. frags, rocks together)
When adding a new item that hasn't been in a tank before (eg. new pumps, new plumbing, new structure... basically anything that may release trace amounts of "harmless" chemical off-gasses)
When keeping softies/leathers.
When keeping a creature that when it dies it can poison the tank.
When someone in the tank seems unhappy/sick.
After dosing of meds is complete or using a targeted chemical to kill something.

This isn't necessarily a full list... just what I could come up with.

Green! Where you been man? How's the tank coming along?

 

[dzhuo]

Keep us posted on the progress dzhuo.

Will do Brett. How is that blue frag doing? Has the STN stopped? A couple more of my mini colonies continue to decline. The 3-days lights off seems to have upset them but lyngbya is completely gone. I hope it won't return.

I am having a weird feeling that I might lose all of my colonies this way.

 

[Greenmaster]

I am on here every day... almost... but I don't like to fill up the thread with useless jibber jabber.
My wife has other priorities for me ATM... I have a 30g FW tank with guppies, neons and some other stuff... that was for my kids...
About 2 weeks ago my wife saw an axolotl... (wooper looper) and now I have to set that tank up before I can get more funds for my tank... (damn controller was expensive) so right now my tank is dry...
For those who want to know what a axolotl is... it's a FW salamander that will never go through it's last morph, so it stays as an aquatic animal. They live in a lake in Mexico and are dieing off. They are easy to breed in captivity and like to have the temp of the tank around 17-20 C... (62-68F)
I still have to set up the tank but here are some pictures from the net.

 

[Fishdisease]

I agree with Green, I only ever ran carbon when there was a reason to (many of the reasons he pointed out). But I also never had my tank as nutrient free as yours Brett, I had a medium fish bioload. But with my current build I was considering running GFO and Carbon 24/7, guess I'll wait and see what this new experiment reveals. My tank is a long ways away, I'm still framing in the room, so I can exerciser some patience.

Also, I was reading Mr. Wilson's build thread in the LRT forum and they had an interesting discussion on skimming and should you be doing it 24/7. It's on this page and the next. But it's along the same lines of this discussion with carbon.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1811725&page=240

Oh and the good pictures are on page 139.

And axolotls are totally cool, my wife had one for years until she gave it away, they'll live a long time in captivity.

 

[110galreef]

Brett,
You should poll or dig into the SPS forum & see what the consensus and type of carbon SPS guys use.....

24/7? just randomly when gluing or making changes to corals? lignite??
And report back!

Oh and GREEN....
That is one awesome looking creature!!