drummereef's 180g in-wall build

[110galreef]

Also... where can you buy a ~1" heat sink that is longer than 48" - like 60"? HeatsinkUSA has some but is there another place online for a different option?

Just brainstorming options here...

a guy on ebay has some nice ones that have an acrylic sheid on them,
reefledlights.com has them, but I am pretty sure you have to call him for the longer sizes, but i belive he gets them from heatsinksusa anyway.

Also for just acctinic RB's your current frame should be plenty or add standard aluminum U channel. Can get online or HD /Lowe's

 

[drummereef]

a guy on ebay has some nice ones that have an acrylic sheid on them,
reefledlights.com has them, but I am pretty sure you have to call him for the longer sizes, but i belive he gets them from heatsinksusa anyway.

Also for just acctinic RB's your current frame should be plenty or add standard aluminum U channel. Can get online or HD /Lowe's

Great, I'll look into that. Is there really any difference between using U-Channel versus Square Aluminum Tubing as far as heat transfer is concerned?

 

[110galreef]

You'll have no issues with the square, it probably won't disapate quite as fast since it's closed? But you will have some extra aluminum to absorb heat.

But with at most 14 LED's running at 700mA spread over ~70" you should have no issue's unless your MH's are heating the aluminum currently?

You can easily add the LED's and if they get warm, add additional u chanel to you rig? But I doubt you'll need to.

Light rack looks good. I like the ability to turn towards middle of tank. I was doing similiar, as my rails were mounted to flat stock which i could heat & bend in a tad.

Concerns,
You may get some shadows with the rails in tyhat spot from the MH's. May have to rotate the angle bracket up & out a tad....

Also 60* may be to tight of optic. Look at the carclo ripple wide. Supposedly very good spread yet great par.
http://reefledlights.com/shop/carclo-xp-e-optics/

plus they have these cool Mounts!
http://reefledlights.com/shop/bjb-optics-holder/

Also I would spread them out evenly(if clear) and not worry about the cross brace supports unles it is just a few inches it offsets? Is the brace clear or black?

 

[drummereef]

OK guys, here's the design I came up with... The overall idea is to be able to have the LEDs mounted to an independent bar so I can rotate it to focus the light towards the center of the tank. With my current light rack, if I were to mount the LEDs directly to the rack itself - pointing straight down, they are ~1" from the front and back glass. I think I can get better coverage doing it this way and also be able to take my time with the project and not have my current light rack down for very long in the process. I'm estimating the cost of each bar to be under $150. Here's the sketchups...


The design is using 1" Aluminum Tubing with 15 XT-E Royal Blue LEDs per bar. The LEDs will be spaced evenly between the cross-bracing in the tank as shown in the drawing. I will use 60 degree Optics along with 2 Inventronics 40 watt 700mA Dimmable Drivers.

 

[110galreef]

Can't wait till you do this as this is basically exactly what I am doing!
You have radiums in now right? Still have phoenix 14k's around?

I have the phoenix 14k's, maybe you can then do a comparison!
Then I will know exactly what route to go! Also can't wait to see the build and the APEX incorporation/programming!!

My testing/design done for me! hahaha.

BTW an interesting tid bit with the phoenix 14k' ..it appears that most of their loss occurs in the first 3-4 mos~ 20%, then over the next 12-18mos only ~10% additional loss. Maybe these can be run a lot longer than 9-12 mos....

I plan to swap MY DT tank at about 12 mos, move them to frag tank, and so on every 12 mos!
Only 2 new bulbs (~$100/yr) for 350g of tanks! Not bad!!

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/ac/index.php

 

[drummereef]

Can't wait till you do this as this is basically exactly what I am doing!
You have radiums in now right? Still have phoenix 14k's around?

I have the phoenix 14k's, maybe you can then do a comparison!
Then I will know exactly what route to go! Also can't wait to see the build and the APEX incorporation/programming!!

My testing/design done for me! hahaha.

BTW an interesting tid bit with the phoenix 14k' ..it appears that most of their loss occurs in the first 3-4 mos~ 20%, then over the next 12-18mos only ~10% additional loss. Maybe these can be run a lot longer than 9-12 mos....

I plan to swap MY DT tank at about 12 mos, move them to frag tank, and so one every 12 mos!
Only 2 new bulbs (~$100/yr) for 350g of tanks! Not bad!!

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/ac/index.php

Ha! Yes, currently running Radiums. I think I have my Phoenix bulbs sitting around - might have kept them as backups - just need to look in the cabinet. Once the bars are installed I'll do a color test on both. The Phoenix from what I remember were fairly exhausted but it would be interesting to see what kind of color they produce with the LED bars. I need to call ReefLedLights to confirm a couple of things but I should be able to get started on the project very soon.

Offhand, do you know if the Inventronics requires "tuning" like the Meanwell drivers? Or are they more plug and play?

 

[110galreef]

Offhand, do you know if the Inventronics requires "tuning" like the Meanwell drivers? Or are they more plug and play?

They are pre set at 700mA which is about perfect for the XT-E RB's, no tweaking needed like the meanwells. Hence another reason for them!

Did you see my notes above your pics about the rails? added them there to eliminate more posts, but probably added confusion! hahah:debi:

 

[drummereef]

They are pre set at 700mA which is about perfect for the XT-E RB's, no tweaking needed like the meanwells. Hence another reason for them!

Did you see my notes above your pics about the rails? added them there to eliminate more posts, but probably added confusion! hahah:debi:

Awesome - they run more LEDs and are plug and play! Perfect!

I just re-read your post... Good thoughts. Instead of an "L" bracket I considered using a "straight" bracket so I could rotate them out away from the MH's if need be. I just used the "L" bracket in the pic just for reference.

Good thoughts on the Optics too. If I were to use the epoxy method to glue the LED stars down, how do those optic holders work? Or, do you have to drill and/or drill/tap for the LEDs if you use the optic holders?

The cross-bars on my tank are unfortunately black. Currently I have the LEDs spaced at 3 1/8" on center in each section. I might be able to spread them out a bit further, just need to do some closer measuring once I can lay out the whole build.

 

[110galreef]

Awesome - they run more LEDs and are plug and play! Perfect!

I just re-read your post... Good thoughts. Instead of an "L" bracket I considered using a "straight" bracket so I could rotate them out away from the MH's if need be. I just used the "L" bracket in the pic just for reference.

Good thoughts on the Optics too. If I were to use the epoxy method to glue the LED stars down, how do those optic holders work? Or, do you have to drill and/or drill/tap for the LEDs if you use the optic holders?

The cross-bars on my tank are unfortunately black. Currently I have the LEDs spaced at 3 1/8" on center in each section. I might be able to spread them out a bit further, just need to do some closer measuring once I can lay out the whole build.

I think they are designed to just drill & tap, noted on link below, drill & tap only.... Or drill & use self tapping screw. But nice thing is you don't have to solder every LED and risk burning LED or bad solder or whatnot. Unless your a solder PRO!. Not me!

I don't think you have to use the BJB holder with the lens, but it makes for a cleaner look and no worrys of nocking the lens off or gluieng the lens down, and easier install,etc

Plus the Carclo lenses were designed for the CREE LED's and supposedly help boots PAR relative to Lneses just designed to fit LED's in general?

redledlights will help a lot tho.

You buy the LED connector base, add the lens holder and lens and screw.... ~$2.35/led, not the cheapest, but for a small qty of LED's and a very clean build look, i like it.
http://reefledlights.com/shop/solderless-led-holder/

They will drill and tap to if you want i believe.....

 

[d2mini]

Nice Rack!

Srsly though... that's pretty sweet. Looking forward to seeing more progress!

 

[d2mini]

Nice Rack!

Srsly though... that's pretty sweet. Looking forward to seeing more progress!

 

[JPMagyar]

LED trial.

LED trial.

Hi Brett,

I know I'm new to your thread, but honestly I've been "lurking" for quite some time. All I can say is awesome tank and awesome thread!

But, I'm a definite LED doubter and I'm always looking for someplace to "hold back the tide" and when I see someone as accomplished as you "going to the dark side" I feel a need to step in. I'm not yelling and I hope I am known for keeping an open mind to hard facts, but here's my point:

LEDs work well for many corals, but there are some corals that will die or change color under LEDs no matter what LED you try so why use LEDs before they have the efficacy of MH or T5 other than to "keep up with the Jones".

As a part of this post I would like to offer a $1000 reward for 2 feats:

1) Keep a frag of my Oregon Tort alive under any pure LED for 1 year.
2) Keep a frag of ORA Red Planet red and not green under any pure LED for 1 year.

If anyone can do both of these feats with at least 3 independent witnesses that can check their system on a monthly basis, and can follow the progress on RC with photos and can end up with a red piece of ORA Red Planet and a living piece of Oregon Tort then I would be willing to pay a reward of $1000 and admit I'm the biggest curmudgeon on RC, but honestly I'm pretty sure that any LED on the market today will kill any frag of O.T. I supply and turn any frag of ORA Red Planet into a green planet.

So basically I'm diverting your thread momentarily because of all the LED discussion I see on a tank that I believe is doing incredibly well as is and I want everyone to take a deep breath and ask why they like LEDs so much if what they really want is beautiful corals of the greatest variety.

So now I throw myself on the mercy of the crowd and ask forgiveness of all who think I'm being a jerk, but I hope everyone believes that my honest intention is to insure that everyone has the most colorful coral filled tank they can have or want!

Joe

P.S. Did I mention I love this thread!
P.P.S I promise to post no further diversion on this thread other than to offer support to such a great reefer and tank.

 

[drummereef]

Nice Rack!

Srsly though... that's pretty sweet. Looking forward to seeing more progress!

Ha! Thanks Dennis.

Hi Brett,

I know I'm new to your thread, but honestly I've been "lurking" for quite some time. All I can say is awesome tank and awesome thread!

But, I'm a definite LED doubter and I'm always looking for someplace to "hold back the tide" and when I see someone as accomplished as you "going to the dark side" I feel a need to step in. I'm not yelling and I hope I am known for keeping an open mind to hard facts, but here's my point:

LEDs work well for many corals, but there are some corals that will die or change color under LEDs no matter what LED you try so why use LEDs before they have the efficacy of MH or T5 other than to "keep up with the Jones".

As a part of this post I would like to offer a $1000 reward for 2 feats:

1) Keep a frag of my Oregon Tort alive under any pure LED for 1 year.
2) Keep a frag of ORA Red Planet red and not green under any pure LED for 1 year.

If anyone can do both of these feats with at least 3 independent witnesses that can check their system on a monthly basis, and can follow the progress on RC with photos and can end up with a red piece of ORA Red Planet and a living piece of Oregon Tort then I would be willing to pay a reward of $1000 and admit I'm the biggest curmudgeon on RC, but honestly I'm pretty sure that any LED on the market today will kill any frag of O.T. I supply and turn any frag of ORA Red Planet into a green planet.

So basically I'm diverting your thread momentarily because of all the LED discussion I see on a tank that I believe is doing incredibly well as is and I want everyone to take a deep breath and ask why they like LEDs so much if what they really want is beautiful corals of the greatest variety.

So now I throw myself on the mercy of the crowd and ask forgiveness of all who think I'm being a jerk, but I hope everyone believes that my honest intention is to insure that everyone has the most colorful coral filled tank they can have or want!

Joe

P.S. Did I mention I love this thread!
P.P.S I promise to post no further diversion on this thread other than to offer support to such a great reefer and tank.

Hey Joe, thanks for posting. I definitely understand your feelings on LED's, I have the same feeling about jumping in head first myself. However, I'm not completely throwing in my Metal Halide towel just yet. I still think MH have their place in the hobby along with T5's for sure. I'm only adding LED supplementation at this point to my current 250 watt Radium setup. I was seriously considering T5 supplementation but I have a bit of a space issue on the front side of the light rack. And, I haven't found 80 watt dimmable ballasts for 60" bulbs - not that dimming is a necessity but it is something I would like to incorporate.

I do agree it's hard to pinpoint why some corals do better than others under 100% LED. Perhaps it's the narrow light spectrums, increased intensity, unusual led color combinations, or too much color experimentation on the part of the hobbyist... I dunno. I do know with more options comes more complication. i.e. The idea that the hobbyist can dial in from their iPad what color they want their tank is awesome in theory, however, it might not be what a coral needs.

It's hard to say with the two corals you mentioned, Oregon Tort and ORA Red Planet, what is effecting them negatively. Namely, what color spectrum out of the most commonly used LED's is either causing a color morph or death. Obviously hobbyists are using a combination of colors to light their tanks so pinpointing which specific LED color temp and/or manufacturer is the culprit would be next to impossible. And/or perhaps it's just the combination of all of them... Again, I unfortunately don't know.

Pete (Psteeleb) might want to chime in as he's had outstanding results with his LED's and SPS. I don't know if he has those specific corals but he always has an informative take on things.

I appreciate the post, thanks again for posting.

 

[drummereef]

OK guys... Woke up this morning doubting my plan... again. :rollface: Here's why...

First, I read through this thread - :lol:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2203067&highlight=led

Second, Looking back (again) at Sanjay's spectral analysis, Radiums peak around ~450nm. I feel confident in the Radium's performance but could use supplementation in the true Actinic 420nm range to (in theory) boost coral color and efflorescence.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/8/review#section-1

So, based upon Sanjay's graph I have plenty of the 450nm spectrum. My concern is adding MORE of that spectral range with the Cree Royal Blue LED's - which also peak around 455nm. With that said, and like others have found, it's very difficult to find a true 420nm LED to compete with the ATI Actinic T5, which is a true 420nm bulb.

There is a UV-Violet LED that claims to perform like a true actinic, but again the spectral graph shows different. They either peak at 400nm or 430nm - which is neither 420nm, even when combined.


So, that get's me rethinking T5 supplementation. It's inexpensive, has a proven track record, and provides a true 420nm spectrum. So I'm open to suggestions and debate... Thoughts??

 

[henrystyle]

I say stick with what you have. What happened to the phoenix se bulbs? Radium gives good color to some corals but not all. Also growth will slow down alot. I think the 14k Phoenix is a better all around bulb and it also lets you see the true colors of your corals. Not just everything saturated in blue. Man Im ready to go back to a mh/old school vho actinic combo. That look still cant be beat or duplicated.

 

[cromedogg33]

Brett,

I think you went through the same thing I did.

In my opinion nothing beats VHO actinics, it looks the best hands down. It's bigger than T5's and a ton bigger than LED's.

T5's are proven and IMO again, look more towards what you can get from LED's. These are medium in size but still will have to replace bulbs ~12 months.

LED's while not the best actinic color, do give you an actinic color and provide you with some ramp up and down with lights.

My ultimate reasoning for going LED's were

1. Space
2. Cost
3. Longevity
4. Heat
5. Space, space, space (main reason)

The front of my rack is a 1/4" from the front wall and would have no way of adding T-5/VHO and making it looks semi presentable without either pushing my rack back or taking away light from my halides.

 

[malate]

I just jumped on to this thread last week (Wednesday) and I am finally caught up.

Brett, amazing tank and appreciate keeping us "UPDATED."

Thanks for the education and the entertainment! I'm following this from here on out!

 

[drummereef]

I say stick with what you have. What happened to the phoenix se bulbs? Radium gives good color to some corals but not all. Also growth will slow down alot. I think the 14k Phoenix is a better all around bulb and it also lets you see the true colors of your corals. Not just everything saturated in blue. Man Im ready to go back to a mh/old school vho actinic combo. That look still cant be beat or duplicated.

Cool. The issue I had with running Phoenix bulbs was probably my own fault... but they caused a major Dino outbreak in my tank. I think it was the extra PAR when I first put them on. I think the zooxanthellae in my SPS freaked out and started the cycle. So it left me with a bad taste about using them again... Which is why I switched back to the Radiums. I did like the natural color of the Phoenix but by itself I felt it needed some supplementation (which I didn't have at the time), especially after about 6 months. Just something I want to play around with, and to add some light hours to the tank beyond running only halides.

Brett,

I think you went through the same thing I did.

In my opinion nothing beats VHO actinics, it looks the best hands down. It's bigger than T5's and a ton bigger than LED's.

T5's are proven and IMO again, look more towards what you can get from LED's. These are medium in size but still will have to replace bulbs ~12 months.

LED's while not the best actinic color, do give you an actinic color and provide you with some ramp up and down with lights.

My ultimate reasoning for going LED's were

1. Space
2. Cost
3. Longevity
4. Heat
5. Space, space, space (main reason)

The front of my rack is a 1/4" from the front wall and would have no way of adding T-5/VHO and making it looks semi presentable without either pushing my rack back or taking away light from my halides.

All good points crome. I have a little more wiggle room between the wall and my light rack, I think, so it wouldn't be as tight adding T5's or possibly VHO. I'm not sure how hot those bulbs get... I definitely wouldn't want hot fluorescent bulbs right next to the wall. :twitch: I'm still not ruling out LED's, but need more convincing that there's a 420nm alternative that works as advertised. But I've read a lot of people are happy with RB as supplementation to Halides. You have Royal Blues correct?

I just jumped on to this thread last week (Wednesday) and I am finally caught up.

Brett, amazing tank and appreciate keeping us "UPDATED."

Thanks for the education and the entertainment! I'm following this from here on out!

Ha! Thanks for the kind words and I appreciate you hitting the subscribe button.

 

[psteeleb]

I like the concept of the light bar but I wouldn't worry too much about spacing around your tank bracing. I evenly spaced mine and I can't tell the difference from the lights going through a braced area vs open area (mine is glass and usually has salt spray on it). Looking at the sketch it looks like you have some large spaces with no LED's that may create some visual issues.

 

[drummereef]

I like the concept of the light bar but I wouldn't worry too much about spacing around your tank bracing. I evenly spaced mine and I can't tell the difference from the lights going through a braced area vs open area (mine is glass and usually has salt spray on it). Looking at the sketch it looks like you have some large spaces with no LED's that may create some visual issues.

My braces are black, but I could certainly position them tighter (or even at the edge) to the braces to minimize spotlighting. What's your thoughts on color when supplementing halides? Is there a specific color you've used or read that gets similar efflorescence to VHO Actinic bulbs?