drummereef's 180g in-wall build

[drummereef]

UPDATE:


I apologize that it's taken so long to give a proper "update". I've been busy working on some much needed outdoor projects before the cold weather hits the midwest. But here's where I'm at....

The second wave of the algae cycle is in full bloom. The only shred of good news is that this time it's not covering all the rocks, just some of the rock. NO3 and PO4 are still reading 0's so I'm fairly convinced it is a bacteria issue. I'm still dosing MB7 at every weekly water change and am noticing a subtle difference with the ecoBAK. It seems like it is getting somewhat "clumpy" which I presume is bacteria and a good thing, so we'll see how that progresses. Here's some pics to show you the not-so-pretty details. :hmm2:


Right Island. You can see where the bulk of the algae has taken over and the rocks that are relatively clean. I haven't seen the snails working on the clean rocks so I'm guessing those have more beneficial bacteria at this point.

Right and Center Island

A pic of a clean rock amidst the algae jungle.

Back side of the right island. Again, mostly algae free.

Skimmate pics. Skimmate has been quite consistent since starting the ecoBAK. Every time I empty the collection cup it pretty much looks like this.

And finally, quite a bit of coralline has started to come in. A couple weeks ago I took a couple snails and scraped some coralline off their shells into the water column. Don't know if this helped seed it or not but I don't think I made any snail friends by doing so. :lol:

 

[waldomas]

How often do you clean your skimmer cup?
Is that a daily amount?

 

[waldomas]

Also, could you give us an idea of how much you feed your tank daily?

BTW, love the set-up. It is a very nice and clean set-up.
I wish mine looked that neat under the stand! lol

 

[psteeleb]

I'm surprised you are still getting that much algea. Maybe it's just the rock leaching out some phosphate that will go away over time

 

[drummereef]

How often do you clean your skimmer cup?
Is that a daily amount?

Also, could you give us an idea of how much you feed your tank daily?

BTW, love the set-up. It is a very nice and clean set-up.
I wish mine looked that neat under the stand! lol

That's about the amount I get every 2 days. The skimmate has dried up slightly so I adjusted the skimmer to pull a little more wet. I'm down to feeding 1-2 times per day. I will feed a small amount of flakes along with alternating Rod's, PE Mysis, and I'll also feed Nori to the tang. I only feed maybe a dime size piece of Rod's and Mysis. Sometimes if the fish aren't consuming it quickly I end up tossing what's left.

I'm surprised you are still getting that much algea. Maybe it's just the rock leaching out some phosphate that will go away over time

Me too! It could be leaching phosphate but even when the algae went away my Hanna Checker still read 0.00 so it doesn't make sense. I know our test kits read free phosphate in the water column but you'd think there would be at least a little releasing into the water column that would be picked up by the tester. It's very strange, but Jeremy at Premium Aquatics keeps telling me it's normal and he sees it all the time on systems that start with only dry rock. That's what leads me to believe it's just an imbalance of bacteria that consume these particular nutrients.

 

[psteeleb]

It could be leaching phosphate but even when the algae went away my Hanna Checker still read 0.00 so it doesn't make sense. I know our test kits read free phosphate in the water column but you'd think there would be at least a little releasing into the water column that would be picked up by the tester. It's very strange, but Jeremy at Premium Aquatics keeps telling me it's normal and he sees it all the time on systems that start with only dry rock. That's what leads me to believe it's just an imbalance of bacteria that consume these particular nutrients.

dry rock does that - I suspect it's residual organics that died off when the rock became dry and depending on the porosity of the rock it could take weeks to months to leach out. The sporatic outcroppings are leading me to think that its the rock, if it was more a water column (eg feeding issue) I would think it would be all over the rock

I'll also add I found that dry rock can suck up your alk. I'd get unusual Alk drops that were way out of ballance with normal Alk to Ca consumption when I used dry rock. Again, depending porosity or density the rock could take several months to reach a balance with the system

 

[drummereef]

dry rock does that - I suspect it's residual organics that died off when the rock became dry and depending on the porosity of the rock it could take weeks to months to leach out. The sporatic outcroppings are leading me to think that its the rock, if it was more a water column (eg feeding issue) I would think it would be all over the rock

I'll also add I found that dry rock can suck up your alk. I'd get unusual Alk drops that were way out of ballance with normal Alk to Ca consumption when I used dry rock. Again, depending porosity or density the rock could take several months to reach a balance with the system

I think you are making my point precisely Pete. But don't you think if there was a balanced ratio of good bacteria in/on the rock it would have helped to limit phosphate leaching or at least the algae blooms that are the result? Since it is the bacteria that would consume the phosphate to begin with?

 

[Western_reefer]

Mine were a little cheaper than retail but you can get them for $60/Liter. Warner says they last about a year but I would suppose it's best to top them off throughout the year.

Oh, okay. Thanks!!

 

[110galreef]

I would at least make the overflow box black if you can. I would think you would be able to see it even through the front glass (somewhat) but don't know for sure. I put a piece of blue poster board up on the side of my tank and could only see it at a very extreme angle, but I could see it. Soooo, if it were me I would try and tint that side so the plumbing will disappear.

How does it look? Here's is my dilema. I am not poitive on my background color choice. I think I want a dark blue. That being said, the overflow needs to be made out of either clear, black, or blue acrylic. The blue acrylic sheet is not really as dark as I'd want the background to be? So If I did black on the sides...and was not very noticeable ....rather more mirrored than dark blue for the background could work.

However, again if the blue on the side isn't very noticeable, than a dark blue background may blend better w/ a black side?

If the side really is not all that visible when colored, then I'd imagine black would create a more mirrored appearance than blue? I could be wrong.

I may need to run & grab a 29gal tank & do some mock ups....this is all that is holding me off on my tank order. Other than that I ordered all my supplies last week.

 

[drummereef]

....this is all that is holding me off on my tank order....

If those are the 3 choices I would choose black if it were me. It will be the least noticeable imo and if the two blue colors don't match it would drive me nuts. :lol: The only time you'll be able to see through the sides is when the lights are off anyway, so I wouldn't be too concerned. A mock up is always a good idea too.

 

[bheron]

Hi - just my .02 cents here.....I spent several years dealing with algae issues until I came to the theory that it must be excess phosphate in my "live" rock. I acquired all the rock as "live rock" but over the years I think it just built up. So I've spent alot of time trying different approaches to clean my live rock and start over with dry/dead rock. Its taken several tries over 1 year+ but I'm now algae free! Defintiely the most frustrating experience in all my years in the hobby. Hopefully yours is a cycle thing only.

Here's a long, detailed thread on what I did in the end...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1587539

 

[turbosek]

I am about 6 months into my new setup. I used 50% dryrock from Reefcleaners.com and 50% live rock from my old tank that I tore down. My live rock was wet the entire time; however, for the last 2 years I only had a damsel in the tank, and there was considerable hair algae on the rock.

In my new tank, only the live rock grew the hair algae, and not the new base rock. I have been running ROWAphos since the beginning, but I knew that would not make a difference in preventing GHA. My PO4 is 0, and so is my Nitrates. I am positive it is leaching from my existing live rock and being used by the GHA. I run my lights about 8 hours a day.

I plan on ditching the ROWAphos after this batch I am running is depleated. I am switching to the BRS High Capacity GFO. I will run that forever, and hope that it eventually pulls the PO4 out of the rock over time. I do not believe GHA should be a normal part of cycle....a lot of people think so, but not me...so I want to try and control it and eliminate it ASAP. I feel that is its growth can be stopped by no lights, and run GFO continuously for the life of the tank, and with manual removal, this problem should be whipped. Also, I have no fish yet only my snails. I have also started a few doses of API Algaefix that is definitely killing the existing GHA. Once it appears to be gone, the GFO will continue to pull the PO4 from the rocks. I will turn the lights on in a month or so and watch to see if the GHA starts growning again. If yes, then lights off, another dose of API Algaefix, along with the continued GFO. Eventually the GHA will not grow when I re-introduce the lights and only then will I even consider adding a fish. Adding a fish required feeding it and it will only contribute to the GHA.

I am a firm believer that people add fish way too soon. Fish should not be added until we are sure that all GHA is not present and we then run macro algae to outcompete any other algaes for the nutrients that get introduced into the tank from introducing fish. Note: I use raw shrimp for my intial cycle...not fish.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[drummereef]

Bryan and turbosek, thanks for the information and insight. I appreciate your willingness to help.

All this information though leads me back to the source of the problem. I think (although not positive) the result is excess/leaching PO4, yes, but what about the source? Is it not bacteria that keeps live rock "alive" and nutrient levels within the rock in balance? From there it's up the the aquarist to ensure good husbandry so the bacteria and nutrient populations don't get out of balance. So, wouldn't it be fair to say that since base rock doesn't have significant bacteria populations there isn't enough nutrient feeding bacteria to feed on the leaching PO4? Even if the rock leaches PO4 it seems like a balanced bacterial system should have enough bacteria to consume it at a consistent enough rate to keep up.

I know I keep talking bacteria and it probably is driving many of you nuts but I'm coming to believe it's the foundation of a nutrient balanced aquarium. So, your thoughts and posts are always welcome!

 

[drummereef]

Here's something interesting as well...

It seems like when I replace my ROX Carbon I get a spike in algae. I replaced it again last night and today it seems like the algae has grown even more. Like it got angry and is fighting back. :lol: What's up with that?

 

[psteeleb]

Bryan and turbosek, thanks for the information and insight. I appreciate your willingness to help.

All this information though leads me back to the source of the problem. I think (although not positive) the result is excess/leaching PO4, yes, but what about the source? Is it not bacteria that keeps live rock "alive" and nutrient levels within the rock in balance? From there it's up the the aquarist to ensure good husbandry so the bacteria and nutrient populations don't get out of balance. So, wouldn't it be fair to say that since base rock doesn't have significant bacteria populations there isn't enough nutrient feeding bacteria to feed on the leaching PO4? Even if the rock leaches PO4 it seems like a balanced bacterial system should have enough bacteria to consume it at a consistent enough rate to keep up.

I know I keep talking bacteria and it probably is driving many of you nuts but I'm coming to believe it's the foundation of a nutrient balanced aquarium. So, your thoughts and posts are always welcome!

dry rock will contain dry/dead organics from the ocean (like a small clams, snails, worms, algeas, etc) and in some cases lichons or land based plants and or critters. Now introduce that dry rock to an aquarium and the dry/dead stuff starts to decay and leach Ammonia, Po4 (phosphate), and other nasty stuff. The system bacteria will bloom around that decayed mater to break it down near the source and anywhere else the stuff leaches to. As thes ebacteria aare mosty aerobic they will produce No3 (nitrate), so you get both a by product of the bacteria (mostly No3) and a byproduct of decayed organics (mostly Po4). If there was live land base organics in/on the rock they will die off and contribute to the same.

We already know that trates are not easily consumed by aerobic bacteria unless you provide a sugar/carbon source (hense the bio balls or carbon dosing)

And we also know that trates are easily consumed by anaerobic bacteria but we usually don't provide enough low oxygen area for them to survive and hense we add DSB's or more live rock.

I'm including a diagram I did a couple years ago (before carbon dosing and the new bio balls). The red shows what is different from setups I ran back in the 70's. For some of todays aquaria just replace the phos media or DSB with bio balls or carbon dosing to deal with the trates (Po4 and No3)

hope that helps all the readers that are asking

 

[drummereef]

...hope that helps all the readers that are asking

Yes, and thank you Pete. But why would I have a second wave of algae then. If the organics were originally consumed by bacteria the first time around why would I be seeing a resurgence of algae now? Albeit the Mexican Turbos did a great job but after they were done eating the algae it stayed away for a couple weeks. Now I'm seeing it come back again very much like the first time.

 

[psteeleb]

Yes, and thank you Pete. But why would I have a second wave of algae then. If the organics were originally consumed by bacteria the first time around why would I be seeing a resurgence of algae now? Albeit the Mexican Turbos did a great job but after they were done eating the algae it stayed away for a couple weeks. Now I'm seeing it come back again very much like the first time.

It's hard to say with certainty but given it appears only on certain areas of the rock my guees is you are still getting something leaching out of the rock. It could be that it's taking that long for some organics to work there way out, or as you elude or more likely a byproduct of a bacteria culture die off. If you had a large colony die off from starvation their die off feeds the next cycle - it's actually pretty common to go through a coulple of cycles as the life forms seek a balance they will go through over growth consuming the lower lie form then die off feeding the next; starting with the lower forms of life working their way up the chain; eg, first cyno bacterias ---> slime algeas --> hair algeas ---> to more complex algeas along with over population explosions of micro and macro life forms like pods, sponges, worms etc (that is, as long as you started with some live rock that had the upper life forms present)

 

[drummereef]

Thanks for the help Pete. I'm also getting the same kind of algae on the sand bed as well. Looks like a brown fuzz all over it. What do you think this could be from? My sand bed is now only 1/2" deep at most.

 

[Rothaquatix]

drummereef....Im liking your manifold it looks like you went from a 1 inch return to 3/4 pvc on the manifold mind if I ask y? My return line is 3/4 do you reccomend a 1/2 manifold? Also why does is split from the main line? Why not just have t fittings with valves off the main return? thanks a lot sweet set up !! One more quick question is if you ran a calcium reactor how would you plumb it up to the manifold? Ive never seen reducer fittings that small that are designed to work with pvc thanks again

 

[psteeleb]

Thanks for the help Pete. I'm also getting the same kind of algae on the sand bed as well. Looks like a brown fuzz all over it. What do you think this could be from? My sand bed is now only 1/2" deep at most.

sounds like early stage of cyno - even mature tanks will get it
for me it was always a good sign it was time to add to my CuC
and that's exacly what I just did as I am also getting some brown fuzz on the sand bed

did you seed your tak with any live sand or rock? sorry I just can't recall
it may be a good time to introduce some live sand not so much for the bacteria but fo the sand dweling critters

did you up your feeding lately and are you using flake food?