DSB in Display? In Fuge? What do you do and why?

[Ted_C]

Now that my rock is cooking for a week - I'm getting ready to make my decision on what kind of sand bed I want to go with. I've been researching quite a bit here: http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html (last updated 2006) and wet web media as well: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm

I would love to hear your opinions and experience. Please do try to be specific in your replies and provide references where you can.

I have a 120 gal Display (4'x2'x2') and a refugium area in my sump measuring 21"x24"x11" (total sump is 48" x 24" x 16") Flow in display will be mainly from 2 mp40 in reef crest mode at 60%. I will keep the 3 sump compartments flowing as well with three Koralia Evolution 550's.

I like the idea of keeping a few fish and going mainly SPS. I also like the idea of natural NO3 export to N2 rather than dealing with NO3 export through water changes. I can live with the suggestions not to have sand sifting stars, hermit crabs and Gobies with a DSB.

Being thrifty is not as important to me as doing things right from the beginning and improving my chances of success and a healthful environment.

I'm debating several options:

1. 4" Sugarfine DSB in display w/ 4" Sugarfine DSB in Fuge
2. 2" Special Grade in Display w/ 4" sugarfine DSB in Fuge
3. 2" Special Grade in Display w/ 4" Sugarfine DSB in 1/2 of fuge (21x12) and 2" Mineral Mud in other 1/2 of fuge (21x12)

Questions:
A. Who still runs a DSB in their display?
B. Sugarfine and Flow problems - I've already read alot of posts about this and it appears to be 50% having problems with cloudiness and blowing sand and 50% with no issues. Do you think it is a set-up issue or something else?
C. Who still runs a DSB in their fuge?
D. With that kind of area in my fuge - do I need a DSB in my display?
E. Is there such a thing as too much DSB area? (where one area would out-compete another area?)
F. Is there a local place to get some detritivore or recharge kits?
G. Will I starve my Fuge DSB if I run 100 mic Filter socks and Skimmer before the fuge compartment?

Thanks to all for their thoughts and experience.

 

[rogergolf66]

Well I don't have reference links for u as it my experience and u also asked about that.

Well DBS will be more effective the more surface area u have. I have run a deep sand bed in my 125 display. I had problems with the finer sand staying put with the proper flow for my sps. I had no nitrate issues though. As far a refugium best to have a way to get the water to it before the skimmer. Also u want a way to control the flow through the refugium.I don't see an issue with the filter sock.

That all being said this time I am running bare bottom on my current 120 of sps tank. I love it.

Good luck

Roger

 

[Ted_C]

Why'd you switch to bareBottom Roger? Because of the fine sand staying put?

I'm inferring here too - you didn't say the fine sand blew up into your water column - does this mean you formed dunes and such on the bottom?

 

[plyle02]

I would think a better approach to utilizing sandbeds, especially deep ones for nutrient control would be remotely, this way it can be taken offline in case/when the sandbed utilmately exhausts. At that point, you could simply remove the old sandbed and add in a new one. In your display, should this happen, you run the risk of contamination and livestock loss, plus the headach of breaking down your display... If you can do it, a deepsand bed refugium remotely setup would be perfect, may not even need PO4 remover, just good old skimming. Just my thoughts...

 

[BobbyV]

My personal experience I ran a DSB fine sugar sand for two years. Great ideas behind them which is why I jumped on the wagon like a majority of others.

DSB are important if you foresee a high nitrate problem. Great for the first couple of years, then you run into the possibility of your tank crashing after year four. Many stories on this forum about how the DSB becomes "exhausted or spent".

DSB also create an issue with flow, sugar fine is the best for a DSB howerever keeping it to stay put is a challenge. once it gets picked up, it gets everywhere and will absolutely coat your corals unless you turkey baste them off periodically, which gets annoying real fast!

Bio pellets work wonders for higher nitrate issues.

If you want to tinker with a DSB and experiment I would set up a 29 gallon bio cube or 40 gallon breeder seperate from your main show tank.

DSB have purpose but not SPS reef friendly. Worst part is, after you dump in the sand and you agree that it is just not in your best interest - you have to scoop it all out. Fine sugar sand doesn't sink very well and it makes your water extremely cloudy.

Go with Tropic Eden reef flakes and get the proper snail burrowing critters and supportive equipment. Check out my build. I feed extremely heavy and nitrites, nitrates, & ammonia 0 after 5 weeks (to my suprise) no water change as of yet, tank just finished cycling. Bio pellets running since day 1. Pellets are very dangerous if you dump all in at once, I recommend total dose 50% of the rating starting out at very small additions.

BRS pellets are a cup per 50 gallons. For a 120 I recommend only a cup or cup and a half at the very most. I run two cups on my 300 total water volume show tank.

I also run no filter sock, just throw in a circulating pump in the sump and allow the skimmer to do its job.

 

[Ted_C]

Thanks Roger, Pyle and Bobby!

you know what - I'm thinking I want an excuse to upgrade and if the DSB doesn't work out the way I want - that might be the perfect excuse. or I wait the 3 years with the current set-up and know I need to upgrade then.

The 120 looks so small - especially with my internal coast to coast taking up 5x7 inches of real estate at the top of the tank. next time it'll be a 6'x2'x2' rimless with an external overflow cut into the glass (probably peninsula style).

Bobby - I had seen your recommendation on the tropic eden products in your build thread before - I just ordered 450 pounds of the sugar sized from Premium Aquatics. Figure if it needs to come out - it should be easy to sell.

 

[rogergolf66]

Why'd you switch to bareBottom Roger? Because of the fine sand staying put?

I'm inferring here too - you didn't say the fine sand blew up into your water column - does this mean you formed dunes and such on the bottom?

Yes sand formed dunes. Went barebottom because I believe there r now better ways to maintain nitrates. And high nitrates is the only reason to run a deep sand bed. My nitrates r 0-2 that super heavy feeding in a 120 gal Sps tank

 

[BobbyV]

Holy Smokes, 450 pounds of sand!!!!

I bet your UPS/FED EX/ USPS delivery person must love you!!

I felt terrible having 150 pounds of dry rock shipped to the house during my build and the occasional bucket of salt (maybe 2 or 3 when they are on sale) - but 450 lbs of sand!!

We have a new rule made by the wife - no buckets of salt to be delivered to the front door while I am out of town.

 

[Nwest]

Wow! Crazy 450 is an insane amount!!! Bobby where did you get your tropic Eddin was thinking about using it in next build looks nice!!

 

[Mekanic]

I run about a 3" sand bed in the display, and a 5" sand bed in the fuge.

Agree 1000000% about it getting blown around, especially with a maroon clown that likes to dig. :headwally:

 

[Mekanic]

I actually have a bit of #1 aragonite left over from the fuge I was thinking of adding to the tank to try and keep the sand storms down, but it will not be as purdy as the samoa pink

 

[bhuddafunk]

So I've been going through the same thing and other then nitrate reduction I personally think tanks look more natural with sand. So what I think I've decided is to do 1-1/2 inches of Fiji Pink in my display and a 6 inch sand bed in my refugium with oolite. I'm hoping that the sand in the refugium will hopefully be adequate to handle nitrate issues for the 110 gallon display. I've also read recently that Gobies are not friendly in the long term to DSB, the reasoning is because Gobies will generally help deplete (eat) the critters which help a DSB be DSB.

 

[Ted_C]

Wow! Crazy 450 is an insane amount!!! Bobby where did you get your tropic Eddin was thinking about using it in next build looks nice!!

Unless you can find it on Craigslist - Premium Aquatics is the only one that sells it.

450 pounds gives me the possibility of a 5" bed in the display tank (48x24) and in the fuge (24x21) according to the calculators. I may only go with 4" or 2" in the display though - which will give me plenty of leftovers.

Luckily - I know the delivery guys use hand trucks for stuff like this. there's no stairs or anything in my place for delivery. Its part of their job - so I'm happy to help keep someone else employed (at least that's the way I look at it).

If I change my mind or have leftovers - Your more than welcome to mine Nate.

From what I've read from other posts - the Ecotech MP40s aren't supposed to blow sand around like the tunze do and the comments on the Premium Aquatics site mention that the sugarfine is heaver than other substrates to prevent blowing.

I'd much rather support my LFS with a purchase like this - but with Premium Aquatics having a monopoly on the most regarded substrate - its hard to pass up. I will continue to buy my salt local though.

Thanks again for the advice.

 

[aguila88psi]

If going with a DSB in the display, there isn't a need to have another DSB in the refugium, an alternative would be refugium mud if that's the route needed, best to keep the refugium free of debree for easy maintenence in my opinion.

 

[BobbyV]

Premium Aquatics is the only online vendor for Tropic Eden Reef Flakes. Which are bad a** for heavy stay put sand. Granular size is perfect.

I had four left over 40 pound bags in the garage. They sold quick, once people actually checked it out in person. The aragonite properties help keep your PH in check.

Those maroon clowns sure like to dig, mine is very particular about anything that touching is territory. Mine will actually scoop up sand like a dump truck and move it. He will also bulldoze snails and hermits and push them out of his area. (Nose or tail)

In regards to finding super high quality fine sugar sand, Marco Rocks has incredible quality for cheap. Also note that sugar sand gets super cloudy, so be prepared to have lots of patience if you dump it in after you add your water.

Don't get me wrong, I think the DSB's are awesome but it just gets everywhere.

Now you have thinking of building a 29 gallon bio cube with a DSB just for fun!

In regards to miracle mud applications, I believe that any Deep substrate should be modular to your system, so you can empty the water and EASILY dispose of it when it is spent or when you are finished messing with it. Miracle mud is claimed to be not worth the expense, all miracle mud is is a concentrated substrate packed with all the same elements of a high quality salt. So if you had the discipline to provide weekly water changes at smaller increments it would be almost as effective as miracle mud in my opinion. Miracle mud simply leaches these elements in your system very slowly 24/7. After 6 months you would have to replace a portion of it. Or you can replace 100% of it if you don't care about the micro fauna that had become established.

If you really wanted to play with this particular mud, I would set up a 1 - 5 gallon HOB refug and fill it to the top with mud. Set up an aqua lifter to run 24/7 and replace the mud every 3-6 months. This way, you know that you are doing everything possible to buy into all the different techniques available in this hobby. (I have a 1 gallon HOB which I will attach to my 120 system to see if I receive any improvements).

At the end of the day, in my opinion a DSB is just another biological filter for all your uneaten decaying matter that settles down to the sand bed.

Another more expensive option is to run vortechs and put them on nutrient export mode so that the nutrients from the decaying matters is rocked up from the sand bed and pushed into your drains for your skimmer to pick up. Unfortunately fine sugar sand as we all know isn't too friendly to high flow.

Many different ways to do this hobby, just a matter of preference and technique. DSB are very rewarding once the micro fauna is in full swing.

Just don't purchase sand sifting starfish, coral banded shrimp or sand sifting gobies - they prey on all Micro Fauna which is counter productive to your efforts.

Wishing you great success!

 

[Ted_C]

After much research and opinions...

After much research and opinions...

So after reading some other opinions and posts from this forum and other forums, Shimek's recommendations, I found this nugget from another forum posted by Tom (username tdwyatt) on what it takes for a successful DSB.

the sand bed is of adequate size, depth, and particle size
nutrient input is kept low
the entire sand bed has adequate exposure directly to the water column ( no rock on the substrate surface )
Fish populations are low or nonexistent
adequate herbivory is present
adequate scavenging is present
carbon use is in place
skimming 24/7 is used
Phosphate export mechanisms are employed
detritus removal is employed
adequate lighting is present
GOOD HUSBANDRY AND ENSUING GOOD WATER QUALITY are the norm.
good calcium supplementation is in place
good nitrate and other nutrient export mechanisms via Chaetomorph, Halimeda spp. or other macro algal harvesting (preferably not Caluerpa spp) are employed (could include ATS)
a good water change schedule is adhered to
significant coral populations exist (esp stony corals)
circulation at the substrate surface is adequate
appropriate top down grazing is in place (holothurians, etc)
Live rock ratio is in the 1 to 1.5 range/1 gal volume rating for tank (amazingly enough most systems were Indopacific rock tanks, but did not record this until other data pointed to some problems)
​

So I spent the last two weeks making flow through pvc rock lifts - 31 individual pieces of PVC cut to 3 1/2" with 28 5/16" holes drilled through them. I also cut holes in my starboard to hold the pvc.

I'll be going with a 5" DSB in the fuge and a 3" sand bed in the display - both with sugar sized tropic eden. I'll try to fit as much Pukani in the display as still looks aesthetic - but I doubt I'll get 100 pounds in there.

 

[rogergolf66]

Interesting info. Good luck hope it works out for u