Duplex sump concept

[Aflac01]

Mr Wilson,
I have read through this whole thread and I must say it is one of the most evil threads i have ever read. I had my whole tank that I am building all planned out and halfway through this thread i found myself tearing things apart to rebuild them and ended up redesigning half my filtration plan to use some of your ideas....so as i said.....evil.....

I have been trying to come up with an idea on how to use the space in my overflow boxes...which are about 6"x6"x30". which is actually how I found this thread, someone on my build thread pointed me here because of your idea about a DSB in the overflow box. Which I may go to at some point, but my concern with that is it would only be minimal area actually in contact with the water in such a narrow column, and i figured if i was going to try something else it would be much easier try it before dumping a lot of sand down the column.

So here is the idea i come up with for my overflow from reading this thread.....it may end up doing nothing at all since the flow may be too high for a real benthic zone. but i built an overflow pipe that incorporates some of your ideas.

here is the inner column with the outer column sitting next to it.

as you see i just made a bunch of eggcrate disks and put them along the overflow tube....the outer tube goes around them the water will flow down the outside...come up through the eggcrate area then flow down the center tube down into the sump.

I am not gluing the outer tube to in he inner so after several months i can remove it and see if anything is growing on the inside....I have no idea if this will work or if flow will be too high...but who knows something that likes the dark and high flow may take up residence there....im a big believer in the more biodiversity you can create...by means of having different environments for different creatures the better your system will be. I don't think any one thing will make a system successfull...its all about the diversity.....and don worry i have some other ideas for where to put a DSB....if only my girlfriend would let me put a 55 gallon drum next to the tank....stupid house with no fish room....but i am going to build a benthic section like you suggested in my sump. so ill have a low flow and a high flow benthic type areas.

 

[mr.wilson]

Mr Wilson,
I have read through this whole thread and I must say it is one of the most evil threads i have ever read. I had my whole tank that I am building all planned out and halfway through this thread i found myself tearing things apart to rebuild them and ended up redesigning half my filtration plan to use some of your ideas....so as i said.....evil.....

I have been trying to come up with an idea on how to use the space in my overflow boxes...which are about 6"x6"x30". which is actually how I found this thread, someone on my build thread pointed me here because of your idea about a DSB in the overflow box. Which I may go to at some point, but my concern with that is it would only be minimal area actually in contact with the water in such a narrow column, and i figured if i was going to try something else it would be much easier try it before dumping a lot of sand down the column.

So here is the idea i come up with for my overflow from reading this thread.....it may end up doing nothing at all since the flow may be too high for a real benthic zone. but i built an overflow pipe that incorporates some of your ideas.

here is the inner column with the outer column sitting next to it.

as you see i just made a bunch of eggcrate disks and put them along the overflow tube....the outer tube goes around them the water will flow down the outside...come up through the eggcrate area then flow down the center tube down into the sump.

I am not gluing the outer tube to in he inner so after several months i can remove it and see if anything is growing on the inside....I have no idea if this will work or if flow will be too high...but who knows something that likes the dark and high flow may take up residence there....im a big believer in the more biodiversity you can create...by means of having different environments for different creatures the better your system will be. I don't think any one thing will make a system successfull...its all about the diversity.....and don worry i have some other ideas for where to put a DSB....if only my girlfriend would let me put a 55 gallon drum next to the tank....stupid house with no fish room....but i am going to build a benthic section like you suggested in my sump. so ill have a low flow and a high flow benthic type areas.

Sorry, I just saw your post now. How did the overflow work out for you? The issues I can see are the disks possibly becoming default mechanical filters, trapping filamentous algae, and you may have too many air bubbles in the upper regions for sponges. It all depends on the overflow velocity and how it breathes. I'm a firm believer in a dual siphon & durso drain system.

You could also put the eggcrate much closer together and add more disks. I know it starts looking like bioballs, but there are some bioball chambers that are rich in water polishing inverts. The limitation these systems have is that there is nit enough void space and too much surface area. Live rock is much the same with comparatively fewer viable sites for benthic inverts. Live rock can also trap a significant amount of detritus.

Please post some pics of the colonized eggcrate if you can.

 

[rick12]

great thread. would love to see pics of colonized areas from anyone following or having tried this
thanks

 

[GT_Jacket]

Couple of questions -

What is the screen material that is shown over the egg crate in the original Mr. Wilson video/1st part of their thread?

Would mixing something like Seachem's Matrix in with the live rock layer help/hurt?

 

[mr.wilson]

Couple of questions -

What is the screen material that is shown over the egg crate in the original Mr. Wilson video/1st part of their thread?

Would mixing something like Seachem's Matrix in with the live rock layer help/hurt?

Plastic window screen.

Matrix wouldn't hurt, but the primary function of the benthic zone is to support larger inverts, and not focused on bacterial filtration. Surface area for bacteria is usually not a limiting factor. Surface area or non-photosynthetic benthic/cryptic inverts is.

Natural reefs have a vast benthic zone surrounding them. The infauna (critters in sand) and benthic invertebrates on the sand are a major piece of the reef puzzle that we are missing in our captive reefs. Cryptic zones on the undersides of corals and rocks are close to being adequate in many reefs, but rubble zones and the benthos in general are poorly represented with our brightly lit somewhat sterile sand. Sure there are lots of copepods and bacteria, but not much in the way of sponges, tunicates and even worms in many tanks.

 

[lunarlanderboy]

I don't use glass partitions as they limit the amount of water available to the pump, should you have a top-off deficit. I find eggcrate walls are adequate for keeping the macroalgae in check, and the Duplex structure and macroalgae to be enough to pop bubbles.

Thank you for this amazing thread - I'm very excited about incorporating these elements into my tank planning...

I like the flexibility of not setting up so many glass walls in my sump but the down side of not doing so is that if you have a drain blockage you will empty a MUCH larger amount of water onto your floor (not just a small return section). It seems like this would be much more of a problem than the risk of running a return pump dry...

 

[lunarlanderboy]

okay I read the entire thread and am left with one question about matching the skimmer and return pump as in your diagram.

None of this is highly critical I assume but I just want to wrap my mind around it. If I have things setup as in the diagram then the skimmer chamber water and the duplex chamber water never mix (which is good per the FIFO rule)- but the skimmer and return pump will never be exactly matched and if the skimmer pumps slightly more then their will be back flow over the divider from the duplex to the skimmer chamber I assume. Alternatively, if the return pump pumps slightly more the excess water that the skimmer can't handle will waterfall over the skimmer section divider into the duplex section unskimmed. Which strategy do you recommend? - or am I not thinking about this right?

 

[TheFishMan65]

I thought about this long and hard and finally came to the conclusion of either using a gravity fed skimmer. Or (this is what I did) directing the water from the skimmer over the baffle so that the skimmed water has a better chance of going forward. And if possible skim a slightly higher volume. Not sure it is best, but it seems to work.

 

[mr.wilson]

okay I read the entire thread and am left with one question about matching the skimmer and return pump as in your diagram.

None of this is highly critical I assume but I just want to wrap my mind around it. If I have things setup as in the diagram then the skimmer chamber water and the duplex chamber water never mix (which is good per the FIFO rule)- but the skimmer and return pump will never be exactly matched and if the skimmer pumps slightly more then their will be back flow over the divider from the duplex to the skimmer chamber I assume. Alternatively, if the return pump pumps slightly more the excess water that the skimmer can't handle will waterfall over the skimmer section divider into the duplex section unskimmed. Which strategy do you recommend? - or am I not thinking about this right?

I think you answered your own question You are exactly right. In one scenario, a small portion of water bypasses the skimmer, untreated, and in the other a small portion is treated twice. With both scenarios the filter will run safely without incident.

I would try to match them as closely as possible knowing that it isn't going to be perfect. It's certainly better than the random system employed in most sums where some water is processed repeatedly while other water bypasses.

 

[mr.wilson]

Thank you for this amazing thread - I'm very excited about incorporating these elements into my tank planning...

I like the flexibility of not setting up so many glass walls in my sump but the down side of not doing so is that if you have a drain blockage you will empty a MUCH larger amount of water onto your floor (not just a small return section). It seems like this would be much more of a problem than the risk of running a return pump dry...

The purpose of all those dams and weirs is to diffuse microbubbles. They are a left over form poorly designed skimmers and display tank drains that generate bubbles. A siphon & Durso drain combo along with a modern skimmer will greatly reduce the need for bubble trapping.

The algae itself and eggcrate walls will trap bubbles. Using eggcrate instead of glass walls gives you the whole sump to support evaporation. That means you can take a rock out of your tank without having your sump run dry. The sump volume will still be too small to affect salinity if it drops a bit before top-off.

 

[TVenters]

Very interesting thread. Pretty much changed how I was designing my sump. Couple questions though...

Is there a good rule of thumb for the minimum size of a benthic zone vs tank size? If I'm planning a 500 gallon display tank, I'm assuming I'd need a larger benthic zone than you would put in a 125 gallon tank to get the same kind of effect correct? Or did I miss something somewhere?

And in relation to that, if your dealing with enough sump/fuge space, is it possible to have multiple algae growing areas in a duplex sump setup?

 

[TVenters]

Double post...doh.

 

[lunarlanderboy]

Okay perfect! ... so one more concern: if I do not have a back-up emergency drain from my display is it still wise to not have a glass barrier separating my return pump from the duplex section? My concern is that in the event of the failure of my one drain (although I have never had a problem with that) that much more water will pump up into the display before the return pump stops pumping water up.

 

[mr.wilson]

Very interesting thread. Pretty much changed how I was designing my sump. Couple questions though...

Is there a good rule of thumb for the minimum size of a benthic zone vs tank size? If I'm planning a 500 gallon display tank, I'm assuming I'd need a larger benthic zone than you would put in a 125 gallon tank to get the same kind of effect correct? Or did I miss something somewhere?

And in relation to that, if your dealing with enough sump/fuge space, is it possible to have multiple algae growing areas in a duplex sump setup?

As with most filtration devices it is more a matter of quality than quantity. The Duplex design arose from common space limitations under an aquarium, but these same principals can be implemented on a bigger scale. You could use 55 gallon shipping drums for a vertical benthic/cryptic zone.

Refugia with macro algae do better in shallow trays/troughs. There are some nice 12" tall livestock tanks that work well for this purpose.

You could have several independent areas for growing algae, but they should have different varieties in each, as they all have their own unique characteristics and abilities. Mangroves, sea grass, caulerpa, turf algae, chaetomorpha, and gracileria all have something to offer but are difficult to keep together.

I know... everyone likes a rule of thumb. I used a 90 gallon tank for a Duplex system for a 600 gallon display. I'm currently working on a 1350 gallon tank that has an undersized (50 gallon) refugium so I'm pushing it harder with plasma lighting. The system also has a wall of mangrove trees and hopefully sea grass if I can track some down. As I have stated throughout the thread, the key to success is broad biodiversity. Creating a favorable environment for multiple levels of microorganisms is the first step.

The future of reefkeeping will be the maintenance of proper bacterial levels, balanced against water quality. I think protein skimmers, ozone, UV, a"sterile" can be struck. The other major focus will be on live food. We need to develop convenient systems so display tank water can slowly cycle through phytoplankton, rotifer, brine shrimp, and mysid shrimp culturing tanks. A simple design can assure that the cultures have clean water, food, and are harvested so they don't crash. I have some rough notes and drawings on the subject that I will post when I get there

 

[TVenters]

As with most filtration devices it is more a matter of quality than quantity. The Duplex design arose from common space limitations under an aquarium, but these same principals can be implemented on a bigger scale. You could use 55 gallon shipping drums for a vertical benthic/cryptic zone.

Refugia with macro algae do better in shallow trays/troughs. There are some nice 12" tall livestock tanks that work well for this purpose.

You could have several independent areas for growing algae, but they should have different varieties in each, as they all have their own unique characteristics and abilities. Mangroves, sea grass, caulerpa, turf algae, chaetomorpha, and gracileria all have something to offer but are difficult to keep together.

I know... everyone likes a rule of thumb. I used a 90 gallon tank for a Duplex system for a 600 gallon display. I'm currently working on a 1350 gallon tank that has an undersized (50 gallon) refugium so I'm pushing it harder with plasma lighting. The system also has a wall of mangrove trees and hopefully sea grass if I can track some down. As I have stated throughout the thread, the key to success is broad biodiversity. Creating a favorable environment for multiple levels of microorganisms is the first step.

The future of reefkeeping will be the maintenance of proper bacterial levels, balanced against water quality. I think protein skimmers, ozone, UV, a"sterile" can be struck. The other major focus will be on live food. We need to develop convenient systems so display tank water can slowly cycle through phytoplankton, rotifer, brine shrimp, and mysid shrimp culturing tanks. A simple design can assure that the cultures have clean water, food, and are harvested so they don't crash. I have some rough notes and drawings on the subject that I will post when I get there

A rule of thumb can be handy, but I kinda prefer it when there isn't, means I can get creative, which means I can have fun

What I was thinking about for the algae in my sump was to have a section (roughly 10 inches or so long, and about 22 inches wide) for a specific type of algae, with about a 3-4 inch gap in between sections filled with live rock (all of which would be over a benthic zone.) Would that work, or do I need to get creative in my plumbing to do wholly separate tanks to keep several kinds of algae underneath my tank.


A friend and I have actually talked about growing live food, I can't speak for him, but I have a feeling it is better for the fish, after all, nature doesn't make fish flakes neatly packaged for the fish to go buy at the local store. I didn't give to much thought to putting the food breeding tanks in a plumbing loop with the display tank though, just with each other. More food for thought lol.

 

[luv951]

tagging along

sorry, I can't seem to find the subscribe button...

 

[Rybren]

Go to the top of the thread, select Thread Tools, select Subscribe

:thumbsup:

 

[stormrider27]

Thought I would bump this up in hopes that some of the people that have built this type of refugium would let us know how it is working for them.......

 

[mr.wilson]

Not much in new ideas. I received some studies on soft tube worm casings/castings with the hopes of implementing a tube worm nutrient export filter.

Basically, a tray of large feather dusters would be kept in a dark part of a sump/refugium. Once a month, the tubes of "mature" tube worms will be removed. The naked worms will quickly acquire a new tube through collection of passing detritus and through excretion of waste. The soft tube is high in heavy metals and nutrients.

Just like gardeners use worm castings to fertilize their gardens, we can remove worm castings to take fertilizer out of our aquatic gardens.

 

[medicreefer]

Mr.Wilson,

I've been reading your information in this thread as well as following along with all of the absolutely incredible information you've been providing in Nineball's great build thread as part of that team. Amazingly valuable stuff!

I'm in the fairly early stages of planning for my 120 gallon build (feels like I've actually been researching and planning forever). I'm going to incorporate a benthic zone in my sump and I wanted to run a few things by you (and anybody else with advice for that matter) if you don't mind.

The display tank will be in my living room and my sump will be in the crawl space that's directly beneath it. The crawl space is partially finished, easily accessible and it's heated. For my sump system I plan on using two 40 gallon breeders. The first will have an intake area where DT water will arrive. I'd like to try to devise some sort of baffle system that will trap detritus in this area. I plan on keeping some non-reef-safe detrivores in this area as you suggested, and if all goes well I may end up lighting it and trying out a xenia or anemone zone here as well. From here the water will flow into the skimmer zone in the same breeder tank. The skimmer will pump the skimmed water over a baffle, where it will flow through a bulkhead into the second breeder tank, which will be half duplex fuge and half return zone. The benthic zone in the bottom will be about 7" high (so total benthic size will be 18x18x7). There will be removable egg-crate on top. Above this will be about another 5" of water with macro algae on a reverse photo period from the DT (so the macro area will be 18x18x5). Eventually I may add some mangroves along one side of the fuge with the mangrove roots reaching down into a substrate tray in part of the benthic zone. From the fuge the water will flow into the return pump area where it will be pumped back up to the DT. I plan on having heaters and media reactors in the return area or just between the fuge and return area. I plan on having all of my monitor probes in the first intake zone where the DT water first arrives. Also I would ideally do all of my water changes by removing the water from this initial intake zone/detritus trapping area as this should be the "œdirtiest" water. The flow through my sump will be 400-600 gph in order to keep with the rule of 3-5 times the system volume.

And finally, some info on the DT that I think is pertinent is that I plan on having a small yellowhead jawfish colony (my favorite fish) so it will have a relatively DSB of 4-6".

Here are my questions:

1 "“ What's your general thought on my plan? Anything big that I'm missing?

2- Do you think I've planned adequate space for the benthic and macro zones?

3- Do you have any ideas re baffles that could help trap detritus in the intake zone? I think this will be hard due to flow. Even though I will only be flowing 3-5 times the DT volume through the sump, this intake area will have maybe 15-20 gallons of water in it, so flow within this area will be about 25x turnover and may not allow detritus to settle.

4- Since I'll be having a substrate of 4-6" for my jawfish in the DT covering an area of 48" x 24" do you think this negates the need for a remote DSB in my sump?

That's it for now. I have a ton more questions but lets start with these. I know this has been a long post. Thanks for taking the time to read it.

Corey