Duplex sump concept

[mr.wilson]

Mr. Wilson

I have spent the day reading this Thread from the start, Wow, great stuff, it will fit my plans very well, I now know why I have delayed starting my project, I wasn't comfortable with the traditional, sump and Fuge designs, I had hoped for something better and I think I found it. I think I have a good understanding of your concept and I see no reason why I cannot incorprorate most of these great ideas into my design. I do have one question though, my system will have two 180g in wall display tanks (one Reef, one FOWLR), or a total 360g display to drain by CtoC overeflows to one sump. I plan on using a Reef Octopus external Skimmer sized for systems to 550g that requires a 650g feed pump. In order to match that flow with my return pump I will be returning less than a 2 to 1 ratio, to achieve a 3 to 1 flow rate I will need about 1100g's, or about twice my feed pump flow. I can feed the fuge directly from the skimmer and flow the balance in the sump to the return tank, is that what you would do? Any Ideas for a better solution to this problem. Thanks for your willingness to help so many with your obvious expertise, I am amazed at your knowledge and ability to communicate it.

Thank You................................................Stig.

Try to limit the number of pumps you use to feed filtration devices. Use gravity flow from the tank, ie. split drains, and link devices together where possible.

I stopped using fluidized reactors and went back to media bags. I feed my refugium with the skimmer effluent, rather than with a separate pump. Try to reuse free flow you already have. Powerheads don't use much energy, but they are one more thing to clean, vibrate, release stray current, shock hazard, and generate heat. You will be happy to lose some of those electrical plugs & cords too.

Refugiums are a good place to diffuse stray bubbles from skimming and draining. I stopped using bubble traps and just use mesh to keep algae out of the return pump. Once you add baffles, it limits the volume of water where your return pump sits, thus cycling on & off more often for top off and making it run dry if you take out a small volume of system water. It's nice to have the whole sump at one water level so you can remove rocks and mess around without having to unplug the return pump for fear of running dry.

 

[KafudaFish]

^ life was so much easier when I cut out my baffles to my sump. I will never use baffles again to divide a sump.

Skimmer water height = eggcrate platform
bubble trap = LR.

 

[budster.stig1]

Mr. Wilson:

So: do I get this right? I drain one tank (approx. 750gph) to the sump, feed the skimmer (external) with the required 750gph pump, route the skimmer affluent to the duplex refugium (also external) which will flow back to the sump for return to the display tanks (split 1500 gph pump). What about the overflow drain of the other tank (the other 750gph), back to the sump? or drained to the refugium which would add 750gph flow through the fuge! Isn't 1500 gph flow too much for the duplex fuge? What cha' think?
There are a few ways to do this I just wonder what's the best?...................Stig

 

[budster.stig1]

OR:

I could drain both tanks to the sump, treat (skimmer to duplex refugium) the required 750 GPH for my Reef Octopus skimmer, then flow to the return sump. This would treat approx. 150% of the total system volume per hour, with few bubble problems and minimum pump wattage. The system return pump will produce approx. 1500 GPH, providing approx. 4 times the display tanks capacity. I will supplement DT flow with a closed loop circ. system. Like I said before a few ways to do this, let me know your thinking!.......................................Stig.

 

[HurricaneCaleb]

My Design w/ Frag Tank

My Design w/ Frag Tank

Fist off, I apologize for not having a picture or fancy 3d design drawn up. I currently have a 75 with a ghetto rigged wet/dry turned duplex sump. There is a possibility that I may be upgrading to a 125 in the near future. I am thinking about trying a rough draft to work for my 75 until I get the new tank. The plan is to get a 20-25 gallon used tank and make a sump. Since I don't have pics, I will describe the layout in order of flow:
1. Aptasia in the overflow
2. Skimmer w/ aptasia/ xenia (might try skimmerless but leave room to add)
3. Duplex
4. Frag Section
5. Return/ Dosing/ Heater/ ATO
All sections will be divided with egg crate except for the ATO. It will be a box in the corner of the last section.

Thoughts?
Ideas?

What would be a good size sump for the 125?

Thanks

 

[medicreefer]

Hopefully Mr. Wilson still checks this site every once in a while.

My question isn't directly related to this sump concept, but in my upcomming 120 gallon build I'll be using this duplex concept within my sump system and Mr. Wilson has some pretty far-reaching expertise, so I'm gonna go ahead and ask here anyway.

My question relates to the best place to locate heaters in a big sump system.

I will have a "fish room/area" where I'll be able to locate all of my filtration so my set-up will be large and somewhat complex (I want it large for extra water volume). Here's how it will likely be set up:
Water from the display tank drains into the 1st sump tank where mechanical and chemical filtration take place as well as protein skimming. -> Water then flows out to one of two 55 gallon drums (this will be controlled via valves so that water will always be flowing through one drum while the other is making new salt water. Then at the flip of a couple of valves, the old one comes off line and the new one goes on line and voila; a 55 gallon water change has taken place). -> From here the water flows through a 30 gallon drum packed with live rock for extra cryptic and pod refuge duties. -> The water then passes into the last sump tank, which will have a shallow bed of algae with an egg crate cryptic zone below it as described in this thread. -> Then to the return pump and back to the DT. The idea here is to double my system water volume by having as much water volume in the sump system as I will in the DT.

Originally I planned on placing my heaters in the first part of the sump with the filtration equipment. But with so much distance for the water to travel between here and getting back to the DT, will the temperature that they keep in the first zone of the sump be adequately reflective of the temp in the main tank? Would the return pump zone be better? I will have them on a Ranco controller but I'm thinking that it won't be a good idea to have the remote sensor in the DT with the heaters in the sump. With the sensor not in the same zone as the heaters I can envision a pump failure causing the DT temp to drop while the heaters boil the sump water.

I should mention that I plan on about 5x DT turnover through the sump, so approx 600gph. Actually, while I'm at it I might as well ask another question. When I plan turnover rate, should I be planning turnover rate based on just the display tank, or should I base it on total system volume?

Thanks.

 

[budster.stig1]

Hopefully Mr. Wilson still checks this site every once in a while.

My question isn't directly related to this sump concept, but in my upcomming 120 gallon build I'll be using this duplex concept within my sump system and Mr. Wilson has some pretty far-reaching expertise, so I'm gonna go ahead and ask here anyway.

My question relates to the best place to locate heaters in a big sump system.

I will have a "fish room/area" where I'll be able to locate all of my filtration so my set-up will be large and somewhat complex (I want it large for extra water volume). Here's how it will likely be set up:
Water from the display tank drains into the 1st sump tank where mechanical and chemical filtration take place as well as protein skimming. -> Water then flows out to one of two 55 gallon drums (this will be controlled via valves so that water will always be flowing through one drum while the other is making new salt water. Then at the flip of a couple of valves, the old one comes off line and the new one goes on line and voila; a 55 gallon water change has taken place). -> From here the water flows through a 30 gallon drum packed with live rock for extra cryptic and pod refuge duties. -> The water then passes into the last sump tank, which will have a shallow bed of algae with an egg crate cryptic zone below it as described in this thread. -> Then to the return pump and back to the DT. The idea here is to double my system water volume by having as much water volume in the sump system as I will in the DT.

Originally I planned on placing my heaters in the first part of the sump with the filtration equipment. But with so much distance for the water to travel between here and getting back to the DT, will the temperature that they keep in the first zone of the sump be adequately reflective of the temp in the main tank? Would the return pump zone be better? I will have them on a Ranco controller but I'm thinking that it won't be a good idea to have the remote sensor in the DT with the heaters in the sump. With the sensor not in the same zone as the heaters I can envision a pump failure causing the DT temp to drop while the heaters boil the sump water.

I should mention that I plan on about 5x DT turnover through the sump, so approx 600gph. Actually, while I'm at it I might as well ask another question. When I plan turnover rate, should I be planning turnover rate based on just the display tank, or should I base it on total system volume?

Thanks.

Medicreefer:

Haven't heard from Mr. Wilson in almost a month! Hopefully he will respond to your questions! Seems to me you would want your sensor with your heater, and I would use your return sump for them....................Budster.stig

 

[medicreefer]

Medicreefer:

Haven't heard from Mr. Wilson in almost a month! Hopefully he will respond to your questions! Seems to me you would want your sensor with your heater, and I would use your return sump for them....................Budster.stig

He's a busy guy these days, opening his new reef shop. I'm sure he'll be back on here eventually to answer our questions.

 

[budster.stig1]

Design Complete!

Design Complete!

I have finally finished my design for my twin in wall 150's system. I have considered most idea's received here at RC and have decided on the following.

The System Flow: The system circulation rate will be a total of about 2000gph provided by a RO WB 10000 (2600 gph). Each tank will recieve 750 gph and the 40g. Frag tank will recieve 500 gph. Both DT's will drain to the Skimmer section of the sump. The Skimmer (RO SRO 5000) will be external and will be fed 750 gph with the effluent directed to the Refugium. The additional 750 gph in the sump will flow through filter socks to the return portion of the sump. The 500 gph to the Frag tank will drain to the Refugium.
The socks in the sump will be used for filtration or media or both as needed.
The return sump will provide space for heaters, system sensors, etc.

The Refugium: The Fuge will be 75g. external Tri-Plex design and will recieve a flow rate of about 1200 gph.,from the skimmer effulent and the drain from the Frag Tank. The bottom 8" will be 1/2 benthic zone and 1/2 DSB. The above 3" will be Live rock rubble on a removable egg crate tray. The remaining 8" will be a shallow Culerpa zone. The Fuge will drain to the return sump using a C to C over-flow on the end to control drain back to the sump on system shut down.

Supply Water: Water will be provided by a 4 stage RO/DI that will produce 75gpd to a 55g. mixing/storage tank. There will be an additional 110g of water storage, all of which will be plumbed to a pump to move water from tank to tank ,and for auto top-off and water changes. The 64g. sump will drain to a floor drain, and the system will refill sump by pump for easy water changes. The system will also be plumbed to a QT rack to supply those tanks, by pump, with fresh mix.

The DT's: The Tanks will be in wall and each will be 60"x24"x25". One DT wil be a mixed Reef tank with what I hope will be a beautiful assortment of all types of coral and many Reef safe varities of fish. The other Tank will be what they call a FOWLR. Many varieties of fish that I like best are the more aggresive types, it will be a challenge to populate this tank with what I like and with what can co-habitate successfully.

Lighting: Both DT's will use ATI Sun Power T-5 fixtures. The Reef wil be a 8x80w fixture and the FOWLR will be a 4x80w. fixture. I especially like the ability to control color spectrum with T-5's, and I believe T-5's to be comparable to LED's that I found out of reach due to cost and savings return.

After a year of R&D the above is what I am hoping will be the ideal system for what I want to do, so I will order equipment right away and get started. Thanks to all who have helped here on RC.......................Budster

 

[coralreefdoc]

Try to limit the number of pumps you use to feed filtration devices. Use gravity flow from the tank, ie. split drains, and link devices together where possible.

I stopped using fluidized reactors and went back to media bags. I feed my refugium with the skimmer effluent, rather than with a separate pump. Try to reuse free flow you already have. Powerheads don't use much energy, but they are one more thing to clean, vibrate, release stray current, shock hazard, and generate heat. You will be happy to lose some of those electrical plugs & cords too.

Refugiums are a good place to diffuse stray bubbles from skimming and draining. I stopped using bubble traps and just use mesh to keep algae out of the return pump. Once you add baffles, it limits the volume of water where your return pump sits, thus cycling on & off more often for top off and making it run dry if you take out a small volume of system water. It's nice to have the whole sump at one water level so you can remove rocks and mess around without having to unplug the return pump for fear of running dry.

I concur. Well thought, Shawn

 

[HurricaneCaleb]

After reading through most of the threads on duplex sump design, it has been recommended to leave out baffles and use all egg crate. How do you prevent your critters from making their way to the return section? I lost a snail on my test design. Would it be ok to add baffles or use some kind of mesh? Thanks

 

[rickmccl]

I stopped using bubble traps and just use mesh to keep algae out of the return pump.

HurricaneCaleb, I think this is your answer, just a few posts above.

 

[HurricaneCaleb]

Ah, good eye...

 

[5pacey]

I'd like to partake in the wisdom of this thread and see if I can get some help getting unstuck, creatively. I have been designing a 90g DT w/basement filtration setup for some time and am pretty far along in collection all the stuff and building some things. That said the sump/filtration design has been giving me a lot of headache since the moment I have first discovered this thread. In a good way of course, but I am somewhat stuck at the moment due to too much info and possibilities. I will spare you the whole long story of my design deliberations and what I came up whith, when and why I changed my mind etc. and just present the current state of thinking. I would like to ask for your critique / opinions / suggestions etc.

Main build considerations/parameters/thoughts as I have them now are:

1. Marineland 90g DT (standard 48x18x24) on 1st floor. Stock cornerflow w/2x1" bulkheads (both used for Herbie full siphon drain). I most likely will end up drilling one more bulkhead for the return.
2. Drain lines from DT to the basement 1x1.5" and 1x1".
3. Return line from the basement to DT 1x1", roughly 20' of head everything considered.
4. Return pump - Reeflo Blowhole BH-1100 (~580GPH @ 20' head).
5. Sump - 50G (48x12.5x18.8)
6. Refugium - 29G (30x12.5x18.8)
7. Skimmer - Reef Octopus external recirculating NWDB 150.
8. There are practically no space limitations in the basement (within reason).
9. RO/DI is not depicted due to space considerations.
10. ATO is not depicted due to space considerations.

I think those are pretty well matched components but don't feel bashful if you disagree.

Based on the following System Layout


and Return Options


I would like to see what you guys think about the following issues:

1. Are there going to be any balancing issues caused by the main receiving chamber (Brute 32) being the catch basin for the main drain and then spilling over to the sump actual via a 1.5" PVC (shoud it be a larger diamater PVC?) Or... should I just forego the whole receiving chamber idea and drain driectly to Chamber A in the sump?

2. Is the gravity feed to the skimmer from the main drain line going to function as expected/correctly? Is this design - main drain -> skimmer -> fuge -> sump going to crate any difficulty balancing the system?

3. Since the fuge is 18.8" deep, putting a Benthic Rack inside and trying to keep the macro algae platform at <= 6" below water level is going to create a pretty large/deep cavern below... is this ok? In the diagram I have two levels there... not sure what to put on 1st... or should there just be one level but deeper?

4. Given that this is the only thread I saw where someone actually paid attention to where the return is - I don't know people just don't seem to care for some reason - please opine what would be the best location for the return based on the 2nd diagram (Return Options).

Spacey

 

[NEK-ap24]

I will offer my less then expert opinion! (lucky you right...) I, like you, have a pretty elaborate basement filter room in the making.

I like your idea for the recieving tank...however I would suggest adding a bypass valve so when it comes time to do a water change, you can bypass it and go straight into chamber A, then you can drain the recieving chamber, fill it back up with fresh salt mix and then crack the bypass valve so you introduce the new water as slowly as you like (less of a shock to the system) then after a time, reopen the valve completely and close off the bypass. A complication this introduces is if you plan on using filter socks...you would need them in both locations. (To avoid this on my system I took a split off my return line for my water change basin; thus I always have my drain line entering chamber A) It may also give your Herbie fits, by balancing the reduced bypass and slow intro of new salt.

You may want to experiment some with the Herbie, but my understanding is that it is difficult to split off from a syphon and maintain consistant flow over time. I think that I may also have a negative effect on your skimming as well as causing your herbie to run the emergency/secondary pipe more or less at certain times, which could introduce noise if the level becomes too much or too little (less then the level you tuned the full siphon to).

I think that an 1.5" overflow from the recieving chamber should be able to handle the 580 GPH without a problem. If you ever increased to where you were running a 1" siphon close to full open on your Herbie it would be a noise problem, but at 580 I think it should be fine.

I like the return options of A & C for the reason that you can encourage solid waste in suspension to head toward the overflow. With loc line I think either A or C could be directed to accomidate the desired result.

I think the "duplex" concept of this thread would suggest just making the area under your chaeto a larger matrix of egg crate to give more surface area for feather dusters/sponges/etc. to attach and naturally filter the water. this area was my main reason for going with a large sump, so I think the bigger the better.

My expierence with gravity feeding a skimmer is nil, so please take my thoughts there with a very small grain of sand. With 580gph at 20' of head, I wonder if it may make more sense and pull lines from the return to feed the fuge and reactors, then run a dedicated pump for the skimmer.

I know I didn't answer things in the order you asked.(sorry bout that). I am at a similar stage that you are so I am pondering similar issues and do not have the time tested results yet. (I am going drain to filter sock - skimmer - duplex zone - heaters - return pump to display with a split off to RDSB which goes into bypassable 55 gal. water change basin and gravity feeds out into a small surge tank back into the sump. (with a possible expansion for an ATS dump bucket instead of surge) For 100 gallon total DT (2 tanks) I am shooting for 400 GPH max after head loss) I need to get some pics up and a diagram like yours.

Good luck, please post pictures of the finished result and let us know how it goes

 

[5pacey]

NEK-ap24,

Appreciate your input regardless of your perceived level of expertise ... ideas from all directions are great and valuable. Particularly from someone who is thinking about similar set of problems.

I have played w/full siphon overflow before and it was a PITA to balance it. It became MUCH easier once I replaced the ball valve w/gate valve. That said it was pretty conventional setup ... overflow, two tubes down to the sump in the stand and thats it. No receiving chamber on the way to the sump... that said while I don't know what it will do to the whole balancing process I can't believe that if you put a large enough pipe to go to the sump that it would still cause problems. The question is what is the smallest size pipe which won't cause issues. Is it 1.5"? I don't know... I guess I am going to find out lol. I am also sort of hoping Mr.Wilson will chime in since it sounded like he's played w/receiving chamber idea before.

On the drain -> skimmer T ... yea... I am not sure about that one... I do have a version of my schematic w/dedicated pump powering the skimmer... But... if gravity could be utilized I'd love to do that.

Powering the reactors from a main drain T on the other hand I don't think would work... reason being is that they have a lot more back pressure than a recirculating skimmer does... so here I don't see how a T split would work. I could be wrong but I just don't see it.

I agree w/respect to the return options... A or C. probably in between, I just couldn't figure out how to draw those nozzles on a 45 deg angle in Windows Paint ... I will have to see if running the return over the top edge (no drilling) is going to look sufficiently ugly to drill a 1" bulkhead in the rear upper corner. The thing w/drilled entry is that it can't be too close to the edge so the line would have to arc up and then level and down on entry in the tank. The whole bulkhead/pipe/locline Y and nozzles would be rather conspicuous... so I am torn between a drilled return and over the top...

And I totally agree w/you on the bypass line for the drains so the Receiving chamber can be taken out of the system for a water change. In fact I want to say I was thinking about something like that the other day but it evaporated as I was making the schematic.

RDSB, I also am thinking about possibly adding that but I look at it as an optional piece I can just add later w/its own pump or a gravity feed if that doesn't prove problematic balance wise.

At my current pace it will be several months before the tank sees water... unfortunately... in fact I am somewhat laughing at myself because I've already bought the lights and the MP40 (in Dec) so it's possible that by the time they see any action the warranty will be half done.

Spacey

 

[NEK-ap24]

I have to smile myself, tragic but I have many similarities...I bought a MP 40 a year ago that after 6 months I put in my eel tank just to use the darn thing...I have an LED that still hasn't been used either. I started with an aquapod 24 that grew with fuge and extras, and I have been in a planning stage for my upgrade for a long long long time. My future (near I hope) DT tanks are curved glass Osaka tanks that I cut a wier out of the back and made external overflows for and I went the Bean Animal drain system (very similar to herbie)...I must be fast approaching 1 plus years on getting them wet...but I am very very close. I can feel it!

I went 1.5" lines to my basement sump...all 7 of them...yikes. I can't imagine going with a larger line for a siphon, I think my 1.5" will be turned waaaay down.

With the T for the reactors I was suggesting taking that off of the return line not the drain. I agree that a gravity feed would not work well. I guess my thought was being about to pirate a bit from your 580GPH @20' down at the basement level to give your reactors what they needed and still possibly be left with 400ish at 20', that would have to be played with to get the right pressure for the different reactors.

Great to bounce ideas back and forth, it helps me get momentum for my set up! I race you to the water test

 

[5pacey]

I have to smile myself, tragic but I have many similarities...I bought a MP 40 a year ago that after 6 months I put in my eel tank just to use the darn thing...

I think the Osaka's are very cool tanks. And those stands go w/them very well. They are probably the coolest looking tanks short of Elos's. If they only made saltwater/reef versions! I was always intimidated by the amount of mods I would have to make to the setup and probably having to loose the stands (which I like) so never ended up getting one.

Ok, here's a revised layout B. Catch basin bypass w/ball & gate valves, taller benthic zone rack and pump powered skimmer/fuge line.

But... as I was finishing this diagram... I realized that using a 20L instead of 29g for a fuge would possibly work better because the tank is lower. Also... I could elevate it by say 6 or so inches and get another one next to it and use it for a mangrove "swamp" and have the "fuge" gravity drain into the mangrove swamp tank, which it then would drain to the sump... ok... that's going to have to be layout C... Actually... I wonder... how would the root system of a mangrove "swamp" fork as a benthic zone? On the face of it sounds like a natural egg-crate replacement no? W/sufficient foliage on the mangroves not a lot of light should get through.



As for the race... You are ON!

Spacey

 

[MadReefist]

I like the overall idea here but wouldn't it be better to have a chamber be stacked full of eggcrate? Or bioball type media for that matter?

Aptasia's wouldn't have much room in this chamber, but the others would. Can the aptasia's thrive in pitch dark?

 

[gmate]

Just read this whole thread in one sitting. Wow, that's a lot to digest. And I thought it was hard eating the 150+ page ATS thread in two days.

This, an algae scrubber, and a giant DSB + rubbermaid container. All seem like great ideas that can be cheaply accomplished. When added with the more standard success rates of things like skimming, moderate but religious water changes, and probably feeding...I feel some d**m good success coming on my next build.