During a power outage with Neptune

[ToLearn]

If a Tunze Stream pump typically runs at 50% max(programmed through a Neptune Apex) and is hooked up to a battery, charger, and a safety connector and the power goes off on the Apex... What speed does the Tunze run at?

I like to use LARGE pumps that can simulate a storm for 1-2 minutes a day, but never left at 100% power as it would make it hard for the fish to swim.

 

[rvitko]

Zero- the pump won't run if connected to a controller and the controller dies. Our controllers are powered by the pump so when the pump has power the controller has power. If the controller loses power the pump won't run until the controller has power or is disconnected.

In general, the power is half since most back up systems are 12V and the pumps need 24V for full power.

 

[spicytuna]

If a Tunze Stream pump typically runs at 50% max(programmed through a Neptune Apex) and is hooked up to a battery, charger, and a safety connector and the power goes off on the Apex... What speed does the Tunze run at?

I like to use LARGE pumps that can simulate a storm for 1-2 minutes a day, but never left at 100% power as it would make it hard for the fish to swim.

The safety connector has to be connected to a tunze controller, it won't work with the apex. The apex is UPS ready. For my system I'm running 3x 6095s. 2, 6095s are controlled by the apex and 1, 6095 is controlled by a 7091 controller with a safety connector hooked up to 2 12v18ah sla batteries ran in series on a battery tender. In the invent of a power outage, my single 6095 should run for about 2-3 days. That's plenty of flow to keep everything alive. I hope that helps.

 

[spicytuna]

Looking at my system now, It appears you can use the safety connector without a tunze controller. I don't know if there's any complications with having your pump controlled by the apex. I just chose to run my 6095 seperate from the apex in the event of a power failure, the apex will have no effect on it. I will try plugging my safety connector into one of my 6095s controlled by the apex and see if it keeps running after I unplug the controller.

 

[aleithol]

Looking at my system now, It appears you can use the safety connector without a tunze controller. I don't know if there's any complications with having your pump controlled by the apex. I just chose to run my 6095 seperate from the apex in the event of a power failure, the apex will have no effect on it. I will try plugging my safety connector into one of my 6095s controlled by the apex and see if it keeps running after I unplug the controller.

Would appreciate knowing the result of your test...

I'm in the midst of my 150gal build, and have already purchased a UPS for my APEX that will deal with any power blips and notify me if one of the dual circuits running my tank clicks off or should the power go completely out (tank pumps/dual-heaters/other-devices are split across the circuits, and home router is also on it's own UPS in my office). My plan is for 2 of my 6105s to be on an EB4 powered through that same UPS and controlled by the APEX (not something like a 7095), which sizing-wise should give me about 90 minutes with those two powerheads going full-bore. I will program the APEX to throttle down the two 6105s if the power goes out to maintain flow but reduce UPS battery drain keeping the powerheads running just a little longer.

As a backup-to-the-backup, I purchased a 6105.500 safety connector for those same two 6105 powerheads that will connect to a standalone battery sort of like your setup, so if there is a longer duration outage, prioritizing tank inhabitants first, I'll have another day or two of in-tank-flow with the 6105s running on "autopilot" (whatever speed that ends up being -- I'm not sure) via each of their 6105.500 -- even if my APEX has no power, as wouldn't anything else supporting the tank until power comes back on. In theory, I'd have been notified by the APEX of the outage, and I'd have more than enough time to get home to deal with it myself, or get a family member over to my place to remove the hood and drop my multiple D-cell battery pumps and airstones in if it came to that...
I didn't see anything in the (sometimes hard to understand) Tunze documentation saying the 6105.500 required a controller, so hopefully not... Now I'm a bit worried on this design, but will adapt as required based on what you find -- THANKS in advance for reporting back.

 

[rvitko]

No controller is required, the pumps can work with no controller. What can happen though when a controller is independently powered is the signal goes to a controller which is off and no signal comes back so the pump does not run. Neptune may have a workaround for that so I will defer to spicy tuna.

 

[aleithol]

As always, Roger -- THANKS for the clarification

 

[BIGD0G]

Tagging along on this as I am in the middle of a build as well and bought 6105s to be controlled by the Apex. I also bought the safety connectors and was planning to connect them as well for power out situations.

 

[ToLearn]

The Apex will not plug into a safety connector, but it requires a 12v power supply. Like the 12v power supply you are plugging your safety connector into.

I know just about nothing about this stuff, but here is what I gather. Your UPS plugs into the wall and it converts that power into DC and charges a 12v battery. Then when the power goes out it converts that power back to AC power and powers the outlet your DC adapter is plugged into which powers your Apex through the first plug on the base.

Now if you look at the bottom of your APC and slide the batter cover off... There is a good chance a 12v DC battery will fall out like the one you are using to power your Tunze pumps.
Instead of converting energy back and forth, having two separate solutions that take up space in your stand or fish room, and having an annoying beeping you can not silence....

 

[aleithol]

Tagging along on this as I am in the middle of a build as well and bought 6105s to be controlled by the Apex. I also bought the safety connectors and was planning to connect them as well for power out situations.

Coincidentally, I just spent this morning doing a physical test of my 6105 with a 6105.500, a separate 12V battery (actually an EcoTech Marine Battery Backup connected to my Tunze Safety Connector), and my CyberPower UPS running my APEX, VDM, EB8s and such. See THESE TWO POSTS of mine over on Neptune Systems Community for what does and does not work.

Unfortunately, like me, I suspect you're going to need to rethink how you want to manage your power in outage conditions, as the APEX does not quite work the same way a Tunze Controller seems to when the chips are down. The Tunze Safety Connector works beautifully -- the way the control signal from the APEX or Tunze Controller works with it and/or the pumps appears to be a HUGE difference.

 

[ToLearn]

Bert/aleithol/BertL I believe your over complicating things.

Who would want their pumps to work during an outage, but doesn't want to know that there is an outage? If my tank has lost power I want to hear about it. That means the Apex needs to have power during an outage. To give your Apex power during an outage you can plug it into a 12v battery... just like the one you are using for the pump. Just plug it into the 12v "power" plug on the far left of the base.

Not directed at anyone specific: If you do not care to know your tank lost power, you really don't care about your animals and I am not sure why your reading this thread. Model planes may be a better hobby where you can play with electronics without delicate aquatic lives in your hands.

(Where I live there are real temperature extremes and besides flow I need heat or cool the tanks if the outage goes long. I can crank on a portable generator if needed, but only if I know there is an outage.)

 

[aleithol]

Bert/aleithol/BertL I believe your over complicating things.

Who would want their pumps to work during an outage, but doesn't want to know that there is an outage? If my tank has lost power I want to hear about it. That means the Apex needs to have power during an outage. To give your Apex power during an outage you can plug it into a 12v battery... just like the one you are using for the pump. Just plug it into the 12v "power" plug on the far left of the base.

Not directed at anyone specific: If you do not care to know your tank lost power, you really don't care about your animals and I am not sure why your reading this thread. Model planes may be a better hobby where you can play with electronics without delicate aquatic lives in your hands.

(Where I live there are real temperature extremes and besides flow I need heat or cool the tanks if the outage goes long. I can crank on a portable generator if needed, but only if I know there is an outage.)

Ahhhh, I care.

My personal challenge is I'm occasionally on-the-road (days at a time) and my tank will be alone in my home with no one physically around.

I will be notified by my APEX if something major happens because of probes, switches, and I have the dual power/UPS setup for the APEX as well as another UPS for my internet devices to ensure connectivity throughout my home for a couple hours. It will likely take me more than 2 hours however to get someone to my house if I needed something physically attended-to, and those people are not tank-savvy if you get my drift. ...so, to the degree I can notify myself of a possible problem (which works -- I've tried it), but let automation via APEX and/or Safety Connectors then do the basics to keep at least a couple powerheads running for O2 exchange and some minimal flow for several hours while I'm away if the power is out for that long, it's to my and my tank inhabitant's benefit.​

As you say, if I'm physically home, well, none of this is as big a problem -- I can connect things up and always get my set of D-cell battery air pumps and drop in the airstones as a last resort.

 

[Urchinhead]

As an aside and I think it was mentioned while you are re-thinking your power setup give some thought to running as much as you can off of direct 12V DC for backup and using larger deep cycle batteries to power it. It will be more efficient and less expensive and get you longer equipment operation.

If you had three 20 amp hour batteries wired in series for a total of 60 amp hours of power and we assume the 35w 12v pump will pull 1/2 the amps normally (35w/12v = 3a/2 = 1.5 amp draw) you would get 40 hours (60aH/1.5a = 40 ) of continuous operations. Having just recently purchased a 20 aH deep cycle batter for a little under $40 it isn't a bad deal. What will nail you though is the heater.

From memory you can power the Apex via 12v DC and thus would keep your powerhead(s) operational

 

[James77]

If you do not care to know your tank lost power, you really don't care about your animals and I am not sure why your reading this thread. Model planes may be a better hobby where you can play with electronics without delicate aquatic lives in your hands.

I do care about them...but I also know what will kill them. If my power died right now, the number one problem is going to be water flow. With the Tunze backup power I have, that is taken care of for 30 hours.

The only other problem is going to be heat...and even then, it is not going to drop below room temperature of 70-ish degrees. I am not away form my house for more than a day ever, so I will know about it soon enough. If not, the tunze pumps run more than that, and I could easily add enough power for days.

 

[aleithol]

Roger,

In this post I'm trying to provide a constructive recommendation FWIW and perhaps as input to Tunze Germany from a real US Tunze buying-customer...

For my current 150gal Reef Build, I purchased and have sitting in my garage 3 6105's, 3 6105.500 Safety Connectors, a 6208 Wavebox, an Osmolator and several other Tunze pumps and accessories -- for the most part based on your helpful replies in this forum (thanks again). I am also committed to running my entire tank with an Apex Controller.

Unfortunately, just now, after lots of soul searching, resorting to purchasing a Tunze 7095 as a sort of manual backup method to control my 6105's during power outages, but today finally concluding my Tunze 6105's and Safety Connectors will not provide the backup I require when they are attached to an Apex Controller, I have placed an order for a Vortech MP40W ES to replace one of my 6105s in my new reef. My reason for doing so is I can be assured of more than a day's operation of that single pump to provide some O2 exchange and hopefully keep my tank inhabitants alive if and when 110V power is lost to my Apex and the MP40 via a 12V battery should I or someone else not be around to intervene. With my occasional travels taking me away from home for hours and days at a time, having an automated way to make this happen has always been an important point for me. After being able to really try things in a real life scenario, I'm not sure with what I know now, I would have gone the Tunze powerhead route given this concern. It will definitely be more complex having two types and mfgr approaches to pumps in my tank as time goes on, but so be that. I appreciate a pure Tunze solution with Safety Connectors and a Tunze Controller would work as I need, but my having an Apex is an overarching requirement for tank management and access to what's going with my reef while I'm away that Tunze or other mfgrs alone cannot supply.

I may be a lone customer out here with this concern trying to anticipate worst case scenarios in our tank builds, but IMHO if Tunze Germany were to initiate and work with Neptune to improve their cable and/or interface such that Tunze pumps could continue to operate when power is lost when Tunze Safety Connectors and 12V batteries are in place (just like a Tunze Controller does), there would be one less reason for people to buy EcoTech especially at the much better price point and warranty that Tunze powerheads provide -- and I could have had the Tunze-only solution I originally desired.
​

Thanks for the consideration, and hopefully my comments and suggestion are taken in the spirit intended.

 

[rvitko]

The reason for the issue has no easy workaround. Our controller is simple and only runs the pumps, it uses very little power, it is powered by the pumps and as a result if the pump has power, the controller has power. The apex has many features it needs more power so it has its own power source. When the apex dies, no signal is going to the pump. In the case of the Ecotech pumps, they lose the wireless signal and revert to a default operation. I don't think any solution could be made to work in this case, if it was possible one of the many 3rd party controller manufacturers would have resolved it. The simplest solution if you use an Apex is to buy a larger computer UPS and connect the pumps and Apex, yes, it is less efficient but it would work.

 

[aleithol]

I understand, and FWIW, I have a fairly large 900W UPS dedicated to my tank to run my Apex, two of my 6105s and a computer fan (if temps get too high), and notify me what's going on, should all power be lost. Another UPS in my home keeps my internet connection going for 6+ hours so I can remain connected or get into my system remotely as need be. As you say, using a UPS is not as efficient with all the DC-to-AC going on, but it's a lot simpler to implement for people like me that prefer minimal DIY. In my case, a couple estimations indicate the tank UPS should last 3 hours or a bit more since I can throttle down the Tunze's under Apex control when it senses power is out. Now, should all that fail, I'll have at least one other pump with pure DC backup power that will keep going for 24-36 hours if I can't get someone physically to my place to take manual steps. Fortunately for me living in Southern California, I don't have the more extreme heat/cold and power challenges that some others unfortunately need to plan for.

Appreciate your perspective and help as always. Truly, having found this forum and seeing your great personal support time and time again, is what tipped the scale with me deciding to have an almost 100% Tunze tank. Thanks.

 

[rvitko]

Thank you, and I do appreciate feedback, we do always consider it.

 

[BIGD0G]

If the power does go out and you have a 12v power supply to keep the Apex base unit running would the VDM module still have power to control the tunze pumps?

Just trying to plan my connections out so I get it connected the correct way.

 

[aleithol]

If the power does go out and you have a 12v power supply to keep the Apex base unit running would the VDM module still have power to control the tunze pumps?

Just trying to plan my connections out so I get it connected the correct way.

Yes, VDM will have power because it comes from the Aquabus controlling your controller and other modules (so the Apex Controller &/or VDM can send a control signal to the pumps like a Tunze Controller would). You also need to then provide power to the pumps themselves for the combination to actually work...

Suggest if you have not seen it, you review this presentation over on Neptune Community Forums. It's not specific to Tunze pumps and some of the things I tried to explain above, but will give you the detail and options available for the Apex itself.