EcoSystems
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r-balljunkie
Registered Reefer
Aah yes, you're like me, free corals and fish... Just have to go get them.
Another cyano outbreaks are common near the reef. I see outbreaks that occur from time to time in the shallows.
Nice Pics
Another cyano outbreaks are common near the reef. I see outbreaks that occur from time to time in the shallows.
Nice Pics
Wow I've never seen cyano on reefs but I do see cyano nearby the shore. Most I see are green algae they call it silk grass.
Cant really take corals as they are protected now. However u can still take clams, abalones or fish for barbecue on the beach.
doctorgori
New member
I dunno if Miracle Mud is effective or not...I do know after 40+ yrs of buying Aquarium products like "The Skilter", "Marc Weiss" "Blackworm Keeper" and Tropic Marins "Spawing Aide" ....that its cheaper to be a skeptic for a few yrs :worried:
elegance coral
They call me EC
:headwally:
Many of our coral reefs around the globe are in a state of decline. This is why I made it a point, in my posting, to state that I was refering to healthy growing tropical coral reefs.
Coral reefs are never static. They are always in a state of change. They are either growing, in decline, or somewhere in between. I assume that most of us want reefs in our living rooms that are in a state of growth. Not decline.
Coral reefs grow when they are covered by a layer of living coral tissue that is laying down calcium carbonate. When nutrient levels rise, water clarity diminishes, and corals die. As they die, they leave behind bare rock. This rock is no longer growing. It is eroding. When this process takes place, the reef moves from being a healthy growing reef, to one that is in decline. It's hard to look at a snapshot in time and determine if a reef is growing or declining, but we can make assumptions based on the information in a photo. If we see a photo where water clarity, and therefor quality, is poor, and there are large areas of bare rock, it's pretty safe to assume that the reef is in decline. If we see a photo where water clarity and quality is good, and there is little, or no bare rock, its pretty safe to assume that the reef is healthy and in a state of growth.
As nutrient levels rise, water clarity diminishes, the reef begins to decline, and the organisms found on the reef change. Stony corals begin to disappear, and other organisms move in to take advantage of the free space, and higher nutrient levels. On these reefs we start seeing organisms like sponges and sea fans.
The photos above show patches of reefs that appear to range from healthy and growing, to unhealthy and declining. What these photos do not show, is that coral reefs prosper and grow when water clarity is poor.
It is my understanding that water clarity varies widely on healthy reefs due to weather, plankton blooms, seasons, tides, storms, etc. and it is very often not "crystal clear," but full of floating particles. The healthier the reef, the better general water clarity is surely true, but that doesn't mean it can be described as generally crystal clear. The statements you made above are really just incorrect I think.
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
I'm not really sure who is trying to prove what in this thread any more, considering it's gone way off topic, but I've never been on a reef (even a "healthy growing tropical reef") that had anything close to truly "crystal clear" water. Even on days when visibility was very high (in terms of feet), there was always a TON of stuff in the water - particulate matter, plankton, whatever it was, it was definitely there, in much higher concentrations than I've ever seen in a home aquarium.
I'm posting here not because I desire to be dragged into an argument, but rather because this lack of particulate matter/plankton/whatever in the water column of an average reef tank is something that I've been wondering about for years. Clearly, to me at least, natural reefs often thrive when levels of this "stuff" in the water column are higher than in home aquariums (though, of course, there's also clearly an upper limit - if the water around a reef was too clouded with an extremely high level of debris, you'd expect decline.)
But does that imply a causal relationship? If so, in which direction? Do the reefs thrive in these areas because they are "nutrient poor" or are the areas nutrient poor because the reef has thrived there?
At any rate, when you say "nutrient poor" are you talking about dissolved, inorganic nutrients, or total nutrients? i.e. NO3 or total nitrogen?
Are we implying a correlation between nutrient levels (which levels of which nutrients) and amount of visible "stuff" suspended in the water column?
I'm posting here not because I desire to be dragged into an argument, but rather because this lack of particulate matter/plankton/whatever in the water column of an average reef tank is something that I've been wondering about for years. Clearly, to me at least, natural reefs often thrive when levels of this "stuff" in the water column are higher than in home aquariums (though, of course, there's also clearly an upper limit - if the water around a reef was too clouded with an extremely high level of debris, you'd expect decline.)
But does that imply a causal relationship? If so, in which direction? Do the reefs thrive in these areas because they are "nutrient poor" or are the areas nutrient poor because the reef has thrived there?
At any rate, when you say "nutrient poor" are you talking about dissolved, inorganic nutrients, or total nutrients? i.e. NO3 or total nitrogen?
Are we implying a correlation between nutrient levels (which levels of which nutrients) and amount of visible "stuff" suspended in the water column?
Same here.
I have no idea what you are trying to show here elegance, you said something before and contradict yourself while trying to correct your statement. Very confusing perhaps my english is not very good...
You were saying coral reef water is crystal clear now you are saying its not and some in the state of decline and some not. And yet you are saying again finally that the healthy coral reef is in crystal clear water. There is no such thing as crystal clear. Ocean no matter how clear is full of particles. And in one area where you dont see many plankton boom now, you will see it tomorrow.
1 question: have you ever been diving yourself where some of the most beautiful corals were found and shipped to your country from here?
I';ve been doing some little snorkling on a remote island near ujung pandang where they found the doughnut corals in my picture. The water was clear but still u can see particles its not crystal clear.
Do you know where those colorful rainbow doughnuts are from? They sit on the bottom of the ocean on a mud like bottom and surrounded by sea grass. Organics are abundant down there. Any idea where Elegance corals came from? They are around in turbid water, quite murky on the mud yes on the mud.
Please dont just assume...come here and see for yourself
on the 4th pictures from the bottom, the montiporas and sps are thriving. The camera used was only a pocket camera in waterproof bag. Those photos are taken from many areas surroundin. Yes there are some dead patches photos but thats due to its closer to the land and the island is quite populated.
jimmy frag
New member
as stated "As nutrient levels rise, water clarity diminishes, the reef begins to decline, and the organisms found on the reef change. Stony corals begin to disappear, and other organisms move in to take advantage of the free space, and higher nutrient levels. On these reefs we start seeing organisms like sponges and sea fans." i believe the photos show this
Sponges and fans live anywhere in any marine reef water. Those corals you see in the US or whatever part of of the world who gets their corals from Indonesia is that they CHOPPED off the sponges on your euphylias, catalaphylia and anything u see on your LFS shop prior shipment. Many frags they cut from the reef got sponges. The reason they clean out the sponges is to prevent coral death on transit because the sponge will die and pollute the water. The photos are taken from various places as I said before. The population of acros and montis are still abundant and they are alive and growing. I also have an underwater pic of SPS farm in Bali. The water is not crystal clear. I'll get the pic from a friend and upload it here.
I don't think you can say that at all. We don't know what depths these photos were taken at or how far apart from each other. It may be that some are simply taken at depths and/or current conditions that favor sea fans and sponges.
Which came first, the nutrient poor water or the reef is an interesting question I have never considered before.
problem is some people read something on the web then assume and speculate while he/she has no idea really on what kind of environment their corals lived prior to be shipped in their countries. While as a diver I can say the visibility is very good under water in such reefs area in Bali, ujung pandang and the likes but I can't say it is crystal clear like potted mineral water. The water is full of organic particles surrounding the reef.
And between desember and march, the wet season becomes too obvious and such increase in wind speed makes the water around the shallow reefs (depth to 10 meter) becomes more turbid. They withstand this condition from time to time and keep on thriving.
As i said, you will be surprised on where those colorful jardineis are from. Some bright red carpet anemones live in shallow rich nutrient water as well.
I am actually surprised after that many scientific articles and research conducted by scientists from western countries. THey tend to go to bahamas to collect samples. Why no Indonesia? Majority of corals, probably 90 percent of your Corals came from this country. My brother in law and my sister went to goldcoast for their honeymoon in Australia. And they went into a "marine walk" tour somewhere in great barrier reef in Cairns and water is not crystal clear there as I can see from their underwater pics. There are floating particles... I lived for 15 years in Melbourne victoria. And I fished and dived in the water during summer around mornington peninsula and as clear as you can see from the top, its not that clear underneath.
And between desember and march, the wet season becomes too obvious and such increase in wind speed makes the water around the shallow reefs (depth to 10 meter) becomes more turbid. They withstand this condition from time to time and keep on thriving.
As i said, you will be surprised on where those colorful jardineis are from. Some bright red carpet anemones live in shallow rich nutrient water as well.
I am actually surprised after that many scientific articles and research conducted by scientists from western countries. THey tend to go to bahamas to collect samples. Why no Indonesia? Majority of corals, probably 90 percent of your Corals came from this country. My brother in law and my sister went to goldcoast for their honeymoon in Australia. And they went into a "marine walk" tour somewhere in great barrier reef in Cairns and water is not crystal clear there as I can see from their underwater pics. There are floating particles... I lived for 15 years in Melbourne victoria. And I fished and dived in the water during summer around mornington peninsula and as clear as you can see from the top, its not that clear underneath.
jimmy frag
New member
i also hate to be the one to say it out loud, but your reefs over there are on the decline and fast. your government has already recognized this and has put restrictions on export. 97% and maybe higher, of ALL ACRO being shipped out of Indo now is done illegal. yes that means to Canada and the US. the shops are still bringing it in but the cites has it down as Substrate, the substrate just happens to have an Acro growing off it. I as a importer now am left with the disition to make, go along with this for now untill it changes or change my business. it really is a shame whats happening to the reefs
Yes while it is true that some areas or maybe major areas in Indonesia are in the state of decline but we still have protected areas and dive sites. And they are still magnificent and beautiful. Take Raja Ampat for starter.
The government has not put everything on hold because it will jeopardize the welfare of fishermen on some islands or coastal zones as they are very poor. So they still can go and dive anywhere beside marine reserved zones. Most of the quality corals come from South Sulawesi island to south east sulawesi and to eastern part of javas (Nusa tenggara and the likes) And some protected reefs in this area are still in good condition.
I have to disagree with you on illegal shipping of acros. ONLY THE WILD ONES are illegal. We culture accros on shallow intertidal coastal zone using metal frames , these cultured SPS are the ones exported. I am wondering how could you not knowing this?
I am an exporter as well and glad to meet you here, we also shipped to Canada as we sell to local as well.
Its getting out of topic and best if we discuss by personal PM. If you wish to discuss further about this, I am more than happy to have a chat privately.
Regards
Paolo Piccinell
insatiably curious
STANDING OVATION!!!
I've done some scuba diving in Red Sea (Marsa Alam, El Ghouna, Sharm el Sheik), in Caribbean (Martinique), in Mauritius (point au cannoniers), in French Polinesia (Bora Bora, Moorea, Rangiroa)...
NEVER SEEN crystal clear water... life is everywhere on coral reefs.
Dissolved nutrients are close to zero, particulate is present in huge quantities as bacteria, plankton and debris.
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