Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
EcoTech underrated their Vortechs
- Thread starter Gary Majchrzak
- Start date
IronMan72
New member
Is anyone really surprised that the product manufactured by the company that bankrolled the study came out the big winner? I'm not trying to suggest that the EcoTech pumps aren't a quality pump, I'm sure they are. They better be if they expect anyone to pay 3 to 10 times what the competitors listed in this study charge.
Eastamherstbias
New member
It is better than having less flow.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Sanjay did the testing. He's also conducted most of the published results on all brands of halide lamp and ballast combinations (for over a decade) and several us around here know him personally.
You couldn't ask for a more reliable source.
IMO/IME you can't compare Vortechs with the other brands because they're in a league of their own. I literally couldn't fit enough units of the other brands into the same space in my aquarium my Vortech takes up in order to provide the same flow my Vortech puts out.
Apples and oranges!
redrider911
New member
For the price they charge, you would think they would have the proper equipment to measure flow. I wonder what else they "guess" on.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
too many manufacturers make false claims nowadays
too many manufacturers make false claims nowadays
IMO conservative ratings are welcome.
Good job EcoTech :thumbsup:
too many manufacturers make false claims nowadays
IMO conservative ratings are welcome.
Good job EcoTech :thumbsup:
IronMan72
New member
I agree, the Vortech pumps are unique and shouldn't necessarily be compared with the other products included in this study. I've heard of people that love them and people that don't, more frequently the former. I have no experience with them and because I will be using closed loop circulation on my new build I probably won't have a need to anytime soon.
I'm not suggesting that the method used in this study was flawed or incorrect only that two scientifcally valid metrology methods could yield significantly different results. A method that fairs favorably for one manufacturer may not yield the same results for all similar devices. Just because this method suggests that one manufacturer appears to be conservatively rating their product doesn't prove that the other manufacturers are misrepresenting their products. They may just be using a different, yet equally valid method or they may be basing their ratings entirely on theoretical mean performance of the design, possibly neglecting to consider variance in the manufacturing process. It also shouldn't be assumed that the method used in this study is the correct method though it certainly appears that it could yield repeatable results.
This study is important to us as consumers because a standardized method of testing will allow us to compare products in an apples to apples manner even if one of the products is in a league of their own. In an ideal scenario, all manufacturers would agree to use the same standardized method. Hopefully that is the result.
:beer:
Willistein
Active member
Last edited:
Willistein
Active member
I think it's important to read the study before bashing EcoTech. Realize that this was no oversimplified undertaking. In fact Tunze (whose numbers did not look great) confirmed the results themselves. As a mechanical engineer, I was pretty impressed by the methodology of the study.
I'd love to see a similar study like this with penductor vs. no penductor.
Thanks for the heads up Gary.
I'd love to see a similar study like this with penductor vs. no penductor.
Thanks for the heads up Gary.
firsttimereefer
New member
i personally do not own a vortech pump but find myself dreaming of owning them. my LFS sells them and sometimes when i go there i find myself looking at the pumps more than fish or coral. but untile the price goes down i think people will just keep with what is allready working for them.
Although I support standardized testing.... I don't support (necessarily) the testing done here..
The employee in charge of collecting data was an employee (Summer Intern) of EcoTech; not Sanjay. He may have submitted the guidelines, outlined the equipment, and provided the mathematical calculations, but read the study:
"work was performed under the technical guidance and consultation with Bill Straka and Sanjay Joshi of Penn State University. The data was collected by Mike Sandford during his summer internship at EcoTech Marine."
He was NOT the tester, nor oversseing the testing; merely a consultative resource for setup and equipment... Theoretically the test is kosher; but was it executed in a non-biased manner?
I'm not accusing anyone of unethical behavior, but I can cite instances where ALL companies bias studies to show their product as superior. In my industry, for example, we can use standardized packets of data (Which our networks can be built around, say the mean packet size), we can "prove" a netowrk to function superior to a competitors; which it will... Under laboratory circumstances. Not in the real world. Again, this may/may not apply to Vortechs, MJ 1200s, Koralias, Streams, etc.
Just keep in mind an old saying my father said... Figures don't lie, but liars can figure...
The reason Sanjay's lighting discussions were so fantastic was because he had no skin in the game. This isn't on the same page. At all. Yes people sent him free evaluation fixtures, but his reports weren't funded by PFO, SLS, Aquactinics, IceCap, etc. This feels like the reports by Marc Weiss showing his additives grow coral better than anybody else, when it's granulated sugar... Or when Anthony Calfo stumped for IceCap, while on payroll. I've met Anthony, too, and although he's a great guy who has done tons for our hobby, it still didn't feel right. Just like this.
Not saying the data is corrupt, I just don't like any non-independently verified study which is paid for by the winner of the study. It's a giant statistics no-no, and feels like a marketing stunt. (And I'm in Marketing, so I'm pretty good at marketing stunts... )
Personally, I like the concept of Vortechs, but my experience wasn't so hot. Let's just say a MJ Modded 1200 (My backup pump at that point) provided a lot more flow per watt the the wet-end of my Vortech in a UPS box back to Bethlehem, PA for service does, again and again. Until they make more reliable pumps, I'll stick to alternatives, even if I need more.
Stability is more important to me than anything else....
Sorry for my hesitance at accepting it; it's not that I own product from EcoTech (In a box) and a competitor (In my tank), it's just a general feeling of uneasiness regarding the validity of the study.
The employee in charge of collecting data was an employee (Summer Intern) of EcoTech; not Sanjay. He may have submitted the guidelines, outlined the equipment, and provided the mathematical calculations, but read the study:
"work was performed under the technical guidance and consultation with Bill Straka and Sanjay Joshi of Penn State University. The data was collected by Mike Sandford during his summer internship at EcoTech Marine."
He was NOT the tester, nor oversseing the testing; merely a consultative resource for setup and equipment... Theoretically the test is kosher; but was it executed in a non-biased manner?
I'm not accusing anyone of unethical behavior, but I can cite instances where ALL companies bias studies to show their product as superior. In my industry, for example, we can use standardized packets of data (Which our networks can be built around, say the mean packet size), we can "prove" a netowrk to function superior to a competitors; which it will... Under laboratory circumstances. Not in the real world. Again, this may/may not apply to Vortechs, MJ 1200s, Koralias, Streams, etc.
Just keep in mind an old saying my father said... Figures don't lie, but liars can figure...
The reason Sanjay's lighting discussions were so fantastic was because he had no skin in the game. This isn't on the same page. At all. Yes people sent him free evaluation fixtures, but his reports weren't funded by PFO, SLS, Aquactinics, IceCap, etc. This feels like the reports by Marc Weiss showing his additives grow coral better than anybody else, when it's granulated sugar... Or when Anthony Calfo stumped for IceCap, while on payroll. I've met Anthony, too, and although he's a great guy who has done tons for our hobby, it still didn't feel right. Just like this.
Not saying the data is corrupt, I just don't like any non-independently verified study which is paid for by the winner of the study. It's a giant statistics no-no, and feels like a marketing stunt. (And I'm in Marketing, so I'm pretty good at marketing stunts... )
Personally, I like the concept of Vortechs, but my experience wasn't so hot. Let's just say a MJ Modded 1200 (My backup pump at that point) provided a lot more flow per watt the the wet-end of my Vortech in a UPS box back to Bethlehem, PA for service does, again and again. Until they make more reliable pumps, I'll stick to alternatives, even if I need more.
Stability is more important to me than anything else....
Sorry for my hesitance at accepting it; it's not that I own product from EcoTech (In a box) and a competitor (In my tank), it's just a general feeling of uneasiness regarding the validity of the study.
Willistein
Active member
It probably wouldn't be a bad idea for someone else to repeat the test. Still, it seems like better data than what is printed on the box.
mr86mister
Saltaholic
Interesting discussion here. Everyone has something they like. I've done the Tunze, the Koralias, the Marineland Pumps, and then I did the Vortech's.....I fell in love for many reasons. It's all about personal preference, obviously people have had success with each. If you dropped money on Vortech and don't like them, sorry to hear, wish you had better experience. If you haven't used them totally cool. I guess it's like this to me, if you don't test drive a car you don't know how it drives. Regardless what Ford, Chevy, etc. say I always want to try it myself. Especially if it's a Ford GT...haha.
Capt_Cully
Active member
Vortechs are good.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
attempt at being the master of understatement?
I'm going to start calling you "Teddy" as in Roosevelt.
Capt_Cully
Active member
Hey, he saved football didn't he......
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
football is great
football is great
but I was referring more to 'talking quietly and carrying a big stick" :deadhorse:
football is great
but I was referring more to 'talking quietly and carrying a big stick" :deadhorse:
Capt_Cully
Active member
I ran Tunze streams for 6 years. Never cleaned em. LOVED EM! They worked great IMO. But, for my new tank, I wanted a lower profile application. I don't need the adjustability. I'm not thrilled with the hum the Vortechs generate when they kick up, otherwise, I'm very pleased with them. I can't comment on the longevity personally. I can give Tunzes a bullet proof thumbs up! They were just too bulky for my new set up.
BUY THEM USED! I'm seeing tons of them on the used forum on the cheap. I sold mine for $200! I think they were well in excess of $600 new. That's quite a discount on quite a product. Oh and they were dead silent.
BUY THEM USED! I'm seeing tons of them on the used forum on the cheap. I sold mine for $200! I think they were well in excess of $600 new. That's quite a discount on quite a product. Oh and they were dead silent.
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