Electrician here...If you need advice or help

Would your body not act as the same ground when you put your hand in the water and cause the same effect!! Grounding probe or not! If not then how would you feel the shock!!!
Even with a correctly setup electrical system you will still get a shock! Granted a GFI should trip if it is high enough to hurt you in theory!

I just don't want my entire system going down due to a GFI

And if you think I'm wrong keep touching lighting with your hand in the water!
 
Yeah....it really depends...you can touch a live wire so long as you are not grounded to anything metal or concrete....but tanks are uslly contacting to dround somewhere so you do get shocked and againg the purpose of a ground probe is not to protect you its for stray volagebut it will also provided a better path to ground than you....if you do get shocked the probe will take the brunt of it

But yeah again gfis always....and that's why I previously stated...I generrally will not put my return pump or circulating pumps on a gfi..
 
Wow a lot of strange respnses....lol

So here you go....basicaly given the the large amount of water our tanks are already groundedjust like a car...it a giant floating ground and salt is an excellent conductor and chraged with ions like someone stated the water circulating itself can create basically static electricity...
But nothing worth mentioning really worth shocking you or stray votage

Next up a gfi does one simple monitors flow and return of voltage...kinda like if you handed someone a bucks and expecting to get change and they only gave you back 80 bucks you would trip....lol if something breaks the path from hot to neutral it should trip...use them please....just not on something that could potentially kill your tank by tripping.

There is stray voltage everywhere around every light bulb. Powerlines. Etc...its an electrical field...but in my opinion in our tanks its insignifigant.....unless you say have very large tank 1000g maybe with many pumps that are submerged
 
lanny,

voltage exhists in most everything and most everywhere.. that does not mean it is all 'induced'... (yes, induced can mean that as in the general definition of coming from somewhere to somewhere else is 'induced', but there is a term of 'induction', which is slightly different and more specific)

but voltage is a measurement of difference of potential... for atoms or electrons to go or be higher then somewhere else... if given the sufficient conductive properties of voltage/resistance, etc, you can measure or feel it...

yes, i know, totally basic... but...not everyone may understant some terms as they get used differently by different people and in different areas... and I am not the best person to use the most appropriate term.. but, i am confused with your use of 'induction'...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_induction

typically it is involves electromagnatism, and earlier you mentioned photonic... which is also correct... but, i dont think it is either that you are mentioning as touching and getting shocked by the reflectors...

and it certainly isnt related to the 'stray' voltage that is bantered about in this and other threads..

this also relates to Bigdaddy and electrical wiring codes and the specific references to the main ground rod... and specifically, which hasnt been mentioned in this thread, the use of a 'second ground rod'... or ground point, WHICH SHOULD NEVER BE DONE... unless at the same location as the first and then bonded to the main ground bar...

at one time, i had advocated the use of a second ground bar at the fish tank... and grounding the ground probe to that....and that would be the best 'safety' method to prevent you from getting shocked but that would also totally make the rest of your house unsafe...and lead to damage of sensitive elctronics....

but this goes back to the point of what or how the purpose of the ground probe... It may 'help' in the gfi tripping.. but the main purpose is as advertised, and that is to give the 'stray' voltage a path which is less resistant than you, should you touch the water and something else which maybe grounded

when you touch the reflector and the water, (or something else), you dont know if the 'voltage' is coming from the reflector or going to the reflector... what you know is that you have created a circuit...

the question lies in if you didnt complete the circuit, would the 'stray voltage' exhist???? and the answer is no... or, if it did, the 'other path' has a significantly higer resistance...

the burning question i had and hopes would be addressed, is, if there is no circuit, and you only have one wire in the tank, will that cause damage? will the fish be affected? and i still say, NO...

and if you intentionally add one wire, (the ground probe), and then have a heater burn up/crack, or some other problem, then you will have a circuit for sure...and if you have more voltage then ground path, then the fish and corals will get zapped...as they are 'in a parallel circuit'.... maybe not as resistant or maybe less... either way, they are getting shocked for sure..

so, i kinda advocate to NOT USE ground probe....

as for the drs office and other areas that you feel the shock/buzz, you can figure out where it is coming from and then figure out how to properly ground it so the electricity goes to the correct path and not to you or other folks who may feed the tank or inadvertantly get zapped.

newer construction is good and all that but it is still possible to create a 'better/a less resistant path' to ground then the wire...and although it maybe grounded properly, you can be in a parallel circuit too... that is, ir you have two wires going to a motor, an dyou touch one side of the motor, and then touch the other side of the motor, the motor will still keep getting voltage, and so will you, and the motor will spin slower depending on how much or little resistance you offer, it's like putting a resistor across the motor connection... same thing.. bigger resistor, and it is like infinite resistance, or an open wire, and the motor spins just as fast as without it, and the smaller the resistance, the motor will slow down as the electrons go thru the resistor rather then the motor windings...

if you have less resistance then air and the wire back to the ground bar, you will feel the buzz... so this depends on humidity, where you are standing, what kinda of foot wear,, etc....

the fix... give it a better path to the ground bar...then what you are standing on, etc...


anyways. like i said earlier. i know i couldnt do this easily or concisely.. and hopefully i did it so someone can understand and tell me i am over thiniking it or somethng. and or are off base completely, or partially right or mostly wrong.. whatever....

for now. i dont use ground probes... and have gfci as far upstream as possible for most of the equipment except the main pump...
 
So your telling me that with a probe in place and a broken heater and you put your hand in the water your dead!! Because I have been shocked by 120 a hundred times and no harm! Salt creep on a plug... Wet hand on a plug, or light! Lots of ways over the years and I'm still kicking!
 
Yes, you can shock yourself all day with 120v and not die, but to then claim that it lacks the potential to be fatal is asinine. Try breaking your heater and sticking both arms in elbow deep...see where that gets you.

Electricity crossing your heart or brain = problems.
 
when talking about 'line voltage', the voltage out of the recpticles, (120v), the voltage does not change... it is 120v...

if the resistance changes the amperage will change... the less resistance themore current... and, the fact that you 'touch' or put your hand into the water means nothing.. it depends on where you are 'standing' when you do this... if you are standing on wet earth, you are creating a great path to 'ground', and the resistance is less, and you will get more current...

if youare standing on rubber or 'floating' in air, the resistance is infinite and you wont get any current...

it, whether or not you die or get hurt, also matters on what or how you touch the water and where you are touching ground... if you touch the water and 'touch' ground with your other hand, then the path / circuit will flow across your hands and your chest and out your other arm/hand. in essence causing the current to flow across / trough your heart... not good

if it is just one hand and your foot, then the path is not thru your heart.. if you recall the mythbusters episode, they had the 'paddle', (the measuring device), at the dummies heart... they also used different devices... and most had to be 'altered' to remove the safety devices...

anyways. you can get a buzz or a jolt or a life threatening zap depending on many different conditions... but to say you wont die is 'crazy'... you can and will...

as for the comment about having a ground probe in place... chances are if your heater is faulted, then the current will go thru the ground probe before it goes thru you.. (unless you are a better conducter then copper wire)
 
All true.......the worst feeling I ever got when I got shocked was in my right hand and out my elbow on the left...I felt it cross my heart...but there was no amperage...amps kill not volts..it was a live service from the powerlines...120v.....its like messing with a loaded gun its only a matter of time before you shoot yourself in the heart...even a bb gun has the potential to kill
 
the 'worst' jolt i got was when i touched the traveler wire on a three way, (by accident), and my hand/arm contracted from the electrical stimuli and i hit myself in the head with my hand... OWWW
 
Worst I have gotten is dumping a 220 flourescent ballast into my hand. Fell of a ladder, came to wondering where I was and what happened.
 
ballasts are transformers and store much much more then the line voltage, so if it was 220v, it was probably in the 40kvolt range, (again, the current being really small which is why you are here to tell us about it... heheheh)

earth to lanny, hello... can you hear me? whats your name?, what city is this? whats todays date???
 
that failed heater at Jasons place gave you good jolt too iirc lanny.. Plugged in you could feel "something" when you put your hand in the water. Unplugged the heater and no "something" .. Plugged the heater back in and Lanny got quite the jolt when he went to check for the "something" again..
 
that failed heater at Jasons place gave you good jolt too iirc lanny.. Plugged in you could feel "something" when you put your hand in the water. Unplugged the heater and no "something" .. Plugged the heater back in and Lanny got quite the jolt when he went to check for the "something" again..

The current bleeding into the water was very small. You could only feel it if you had a break in your skin, and even then, nothing more than slight discomfort.

I had my hand in the water and Jake plugged the (220v, 2000w) heater back in, and that's when I really got zapped. If it was three-phase, I doubt that I'd be here today. That was another session of addled brain for the rest of the day...

Hell, we were both swimming in the tank prior to discovering the heater was bleeding current. I think the initial surge upon plugging it in was the clincher.
 
you are proving the point though... if you are not grounded you wont get zapped or feel anything... think of BIRD ON A WIRE ... they arent grounded.. and neither are you when you are floating in the water..

in the mythbusters and in other cases, you are touching the tub or the floor or the drain or the water pipe, (which is an acceptable ground), and that is when you will feel it...

the better the connection to the ground the more you will feel...

as it was, it wasnt very good connection as you can only feel it in 'slight cuts', etc....

'three phase' really doesnt come into play here as the heater will only be drawing off of one of those phases... and even if... it is LESS current, because the voltage is higher...

we 'use' more electricty, then in EU and other 220 volt countries... all our equipment uses more AMPs... but this is a different disussion... hehehe
 
Yeah I guess I should retract my statement because I'm sure in some case there would be a way to get killed by 120v.. Standing in a pool of water barefoot with a broken heater or something fluke like that... I was under the impression that there wasn't enough power to kill with 120v?? Wouldnt the breaker in that 120v circuit plow in that case?
 
Yeah I guess I should retract my statement because I'm sure in some case there would be a way to get killed by 120v.. Standing in a pool of water barefoot with a broken heater or something fluke like that... I was under the impression that there wasn't enough power to kill with 120v?? Wouldnt the breaker in that 120v circuit plow in that case?

Relying on a worn mechanical device to save your life is a bad bet...
 
Yeah I guess I should retract my statement because I'm sure in some case there would be a way to get killed by 120v.. Standing in a pool of water barefoot with a broken heater or something fluke like that... I was under the impression that there wasn't enough power to kill with 120v?? Wouldnt the breaker in that 120v circuit plow in that case?

the circuit breakers are designed to 'trip' at a certain voltage/current.... not sure if it will trip if you are getting zapped and or at what point...

it certainly will trip if you touch the wire to ground but if you have enuf resistance it may or may not trip in time...

it really dont take a lot to kill you.. in the milli amp range... but that is 'across the heart' or across the brain voltage, not at the point of contact to the wires...

I would say it is a lot easier to do damage even permanent damage under a lot less criteria then you are giving it... a good start would be a better contact with the wires not just a glancing / brushing type of contact... I would suggest a better / more likly event would be cutting wires... using a pair of cutters and griping them and forcefully trying to cut the wire and as soon as you break thru the insulation and make contact you are making great contact with the conductor, at which point you may 'contract' and not be able to let go for a longer period of time...

or if you were to make contact with your head, maybe while laying down in an attic or in the crawl space, etc.... a good zap to the head may not kill you but it can cause long term problems...

clearly, i think the point is 120v is more then enuf to kill you or damage you under a lot of different conditions....not just a 'freak'/hypothetical scenario...

but, fortunately for us, we dont use DC voltage in our homes and from 'transmission lines/utility lines... as that is way more lethal and has a lot more potential for damage/death then AC... as it will not BUZZ.. it will BITE and grab and contract your muscles in one direction

the big 'fight' when they were discovering electricity and thinking/planning on wiring america was all about ac vs dc and the winning argument that the media used to defeat DC was that the electric chair is powered by DC....


hehehehe
 
That and Nikolai Tesla went mad scientist on everyone...I highly suggest you all search for "Tesla Drunk History" on youtube. It is a friggin' hilarious telling of the Edison/Tesla battle.

I was working on an aluminum boat back in my research diving days and was stripping down for bed. I was barefoot on the aluminum floor and climbing into bed to read a bit. There are aluminum reading lamps installed at each bunk, and I reached up to point mine into my bunk more so as not to disturb anyone else, and when I grabbed it, my hand totally locked down for maybe five seconds until I fell down. The whole clamping down thing you bring up is very much an issue. I was perfectly cognizant of what was happening, I was just powerless to let go.
 
Tesla was a genius/ mad scientist....which just kinda go hand in hand...edison was a crackpot inventor and tinkerer....ac was the obvious choice but edison refused to back down with dc...even though it was highly inefficcient....but why would he he stood to make a fortune...he was credited with inventing the light buld and the first to harness electricity for use of lights....but tesla lit the world.

Aneone ever read up on teslas dynamos.....if you ever get a chance watch the biograpgy that was made by A&E I believe it crazy....he was going to harness the earth to create free electricity for everyone...but of course the plug got pulled on that one...who wants free electricity...
 
Back
Top