electricity in tank?!!!

[wes_8_u]

ok, so let's say we are just talking "normal" current due to electromagnetic induction or whatever... is this dangerous in any way?

In that case would it be a better idea to turn off the power to electrical equipment when i need to put the hand in the tank?
and what voltage/current is normal/safe?

 

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10072859#post10072859 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 0 Agios
Save it Randal, you doctors think you know everything.

Hey I was just pointing out something that is pretty obvious, topics like:
"Electric eel powering your Halides? "
"17800 galon (sic) setup questions "
and a couple others posted in lounge would be one thing but you posted them in the "New to hobby" section as if they were serious questions... don't blame me..
Never claimed to know "everything" about anything btw..(oh and where did you read into this that I was a Dr? I do research but am not a physician) so don't get your skirt in a knot about the grounding probe thing, it has been a long running discussion since way before you got in the hobby and even the experts do not agree on it, so chill brother...

 

[Randall_James]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10072936#post10072936 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wes_8_u
ok, so let's say we are just talking "normal" current due to electromagnetic induction or whatever... is this dangerous in any way?

In that case would it be a better idea to turn off the power to electrical equipment when i need to put the hand in the tank?
and what voltage/current is normal/safe?

I have seen guys post anywhere from 5-75 volts... I am sure that the upper range must indicate a major leak somewhere.. And yes it would be safer to unplug the works when in the tank but seems like a PITA..

A GFCI is just a differential transformer. When it senses current going in that is not coming back out it trips. I have seen some that trip super easy and am sure you could add a "trimmer" to the thing to desensitize it (I am sure that the liability issues preclude any manufacture from adding it)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10072860#post10072860 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Icefire
GFI: just prepare to have to reset them once in a while.

They leave me a bit nervous as every once in awhile mine trips also and I reset it. It could go 6 months or a year between these random trips so I do not allow all of my systems to be under just one of them Pumps are split between 2 of them just in case one trips...

 

[ct103]

What ever the solution is you must fix the problem. this is a very dangerous situation if you do recieve a shock. If this occurs and causes a cardiac arrythmia and arrest you only have about 4 minutes before brain and cardiac damage begins to occur 6 at the very most. depending on your local emergency services your chances of survival in this case are slim. I hate to sound like the grim reaper but I have had to call the coroner for way too many people over the years, it is not worth the risk to let this problem continue any longer. By the way that would be a first, person electrocuted by there fish tank.

 

[NewSaltyReefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10072006#post10072006 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 0 Agios
10000 volts @ 1mA will make toast, trust me I work with high voltage.

That is definately wrong!

 

[ChrisB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10074101#post10074101 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ct103
By the way that would be a first, person electrocuted by there fish tank.

I wonder what the number world wide really is for persons electrocuted by their fish tank? I doubt it could be determined but I know I have never heard of it.

If there is anything to this stray electricity/ground probe issue, then there have been somes deaths somewhere. No way everyone has been "lucky" so far.

Anyone ever heard of somebody getting electrocuted by their fish tank?

 

[kevin2000]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10074861#post10074861 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ChrisB
I wonder what the number world wide really is for persons electrocuted by their fish tank?

Not sure ... but over 30+ yrs I have seen light fixtures fall into the tank, water heaters get crushed by live rock, and I have had a few "water disasters" usually while I have been stuck under the tank tangled in pvc pipe and electrical wires. I can't image why one would not use a GFI with their aquarium ... same principle as using a GFI in your bathroom (probably code in most of the country).

 

[New Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10071566#post10071566 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wes_8_u
... SO i take it that a GFI is a must regardless of whether there is a problem or not...

Yes, and even more so for us living in countries with 220V-240V mains power!

... So will a GFI work wihtout a grounding probe?...

Yes, a GFI does not need a ground probe to work.

... From what i read, a grounding probe causes your tank to act as a wire... no good for both the fish and the aquarist, in the case of stray voltage.

Having a grounding probe in the tank is good for your protection, as it should cause your circuit breaker to trip in the event of a short (live to water...) even if the GFI does not.

It is likely not a good thing for your fish (and inverts?) as the small current flowing continuously through the water due to induced (static...) voltage could have a negative effect on the health of your fish.

... Now in terms of the current in my tank... According to Kevin2000 and new reefer there will be some stray current (electromagnetically induced) and this is normal? could this be what it is? because it seems strange that all my equipment causes some current individually?...

In my opinion this is your most likely source. I would find it highly unusual for ALL your pumps and lights to be faulty, and leaking current, all at the same time...

If your "shocks" ARE indeed due to induced voltage, I would not worry about it - it's quite normal.

 

[fishyvet]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10072014#post10072014 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by funman1
Holy crap here people.
If you really want to get down to it, it's WHERE the amperage GOES through your body and how much.
100 amps in your right hand thumb and OUT your right hand pointer finger will just blow off your two fingers and you'll prolly survive.
100 amps through your right and thumb and OUT your left hand pointer is going to cross your heart and cook it.

It only takes 0.03 amps ACROSS your heart to interrupt it's signal from the brain. Voltage does not kill, Think Vandygraph Generator at like 500,000 volts but like almost 0 amps so it's fun to play with and make your hair stand up.
Though it does take a minimal voltage to push amperage.
A car battery if touched with two bleeding cuts will pump MASSIVE amounts of amperage through it, Blood is a GREAT conductor, skin is not so much. Hence why you can touch car batteries and be just fine most the time.

At this point I don't think anyone is going to learn anything from either camp.

Just because everyone else was stating their credentials, I TEACH the classes for CA state Certification and currently have 15ys field exp.

Thanks funnyman, that's the way I was taught it in college physics. I was beginning to question my education!

 

[sabbath]

I have never put a GFCI on my tanks. My Electrical experience has been a lot of Industrial & Data centers. Both of witch have the opposite mind set. Their interest is to never have anything shut down. They set there over current as high as they are aloud to. The last one even has 2 high voltage feeds from utility. This has rubbed off on me as I'm away for day's at a time and don't want a nuisance trip and come home to a dead tank. I just have the ground prob. Figuring if it got really bad it would trip the breaker. Why wouldn't the fish be like the bird on the wire this way I don't see. With zero potential to ground...
I have to admit I'm rethinking this now.

oh and it is current that kills! Had to say that.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10076371#post10076371 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sabbath
I have never put a GFCI on my tanks. My Electrical experience has been a lot of Industrial & Data centers. Both of witch have the opposite mind set. Their interest is to never have anything shut down. They set there over current as high as they are aloud to. The last one even has 2 high voltage feeds from utility. This has rubbed off on me as I'm away for day's at a time and don't want a nuisance trip and come home to a dead tank. I just have the ground prob. Figuring if it got really bad it would trip the breaker. Why wouldn't the fish be like the bird on the wire this way I don't see. With zero potential to ground...
I have to admit I'm rethinking this now.

oh and it is current that kills! Had to say that.

In theory maybe current kills you, but in a real world don't touch that power line if it falls on the ground. How many feeds do you know that are 500kv and .0000001 amps ehehehhee. The usual voltages 120 volts is proven to have less fatalities than any country in Europe where they operate with 240 volts to ground in a single conductor. Cost of copper is the only reason Europe has higher operating voltages than USA. So compare fatalities between Europe and USA, and then come and tell me voltage dos not kill you.Now as far as the bird theory. It depends where your fish are in the time voltage is applied to the fish tank, thats why is very wise to have the grounding probe installed next to the submerged equipment (witch I agree with you is far more superior protection than a GFI). If you had a grounding probe next to each submerged electrical device than I can say you would have superior protection of you and your pets. Whats a grounding probe for those that don't know. A male plug with only the grounding pin used and a stainless piese of wire submerged into the fishtanks. DIY cost about $5.00 and about 10 minutes work each. Is it worth it ? Safety,the money and time we spend in our fish tanks. 100% yes.

 

[davidabrown66]

Re: electricity in tank?!!!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10067031#post10067031 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wes_8_u
THis may seem like a really strange question...

but today while i was performing maintenance in my tank and while i had one hand in the water my brother touched my other hand (which was out of the water), and their was this tingling feeling as if their were small currents passsing from my hand to his.

When i take my hand out the water, this no longer occurs. Everyone in my household verified that this happens to them also.

I'm not sure if this is normal... or if their is faulty electrical equipment or what. The fish seem fine, and i'm not sure how long this has happened for but i only just noticed it.

Please help me... I or the fishies don't want to die !! HAHA


thankyou... any help would be appreciated.

Wes_8_U

Having had this problem myself, you probably don't have your outlet grounded where everything plugs into, and take this opportunity to get a GFCI circuit as other have mentioned, argued and eventually agreed to disagree.

You can check to see if it's grounded by getting a three prong ground fault indicator they're only a few bucks, but really you need a GFCI. We play in water while touching electricity...how much is your life worth?

 

[sabbath]

In theory maybe current kills you, but in a real world don't touch that power line if it falls on the ground. How many feeds do you know that are 500kv and .0000001 amps

You die here because the ground has a different potential than the wire. That is the same wire the (sorry) bird was on earlier and lived. And the power line wire has a lot of current available not .0000001amps, I believe.
This is why, If you where in a helicopter and touched one wire you live. They do it all the time.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10076820#post10076820 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sabbath
You die here because the ground has a different potential than the wire. That is the same wire the (sorry) bird was on earlier and lived. And the power line wire has a lot of current available not .0000001amps, I believe.
This is why, If you where in a helicopter and touched one wire you live. They do it all the time.

Good Good.
Man put the D%^#%$%^@#$%$@$%$%%$m probe so the circuit breaker trips.Put he GFI also you will be better protected. &^&^()^*(*%$%#$%@%@$$##. :smokin:

 

[Young Frankenstein]

ment to say Good God. Not good good.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

ok I am waiting for the next %$$%$@#@$% remark. here in my lonesome reloading this page like if it was a double barrel shotgun.

 

[Seehag]

Man I go to reading about Nitrates and water changes and this break's out..... I would say this if you had a grounding probe in your tank that had electric eel's running the light's it would hurt.

In the NEC National Electrical Code it states... Any electrical outlet within 6 feet of a sink should be gfci protected.... I didn't go look up what it say's verbatim about pond's but I think it requires them to have gfci protection.

The fact of the matter is this, if you have a short in your tank and you stick your arm in it you stand better than a 50/50 chance of getting hurt reel bad, if not killed. If your argument for not having one is the lose of power due to accidental trip fine your taking your life in your own hands. I have 2 20 amp dedicated circuits feeding my tank, they both are protected by gfci's I would have it no other way.

I have had a tank leak and stepped into the wet saltwater soaked carpet with bare feet, just skivy's and a beer, only to wake up on the ground about 6 feet back and spilled beer everywhere good thing I fell out of the wet zone. As this post was about stray voltage in the tank originally I think the way to get that out if you want to has been pretty clearly put at a grounding probe.


Art

 

[sabbath]

Hi Guy's
As far as the NEC, I don't think a pond and Aquarium are the same thing. A pond is in the ground...
Just to note; I'm not saying not to GFCI either.

 

[funman1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10076570#post10076570 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 0 Agios
In theory maybe current kills you, but in a real world don't touch that power line if it falls on the ground. How many feeds do you know that are 500kv and .0000001 amps ehehehhee. The usual voltages 120 volts is proven to have less fatalities than any country in Europe where they operate with 240 volts to ground in a single conductor. Cost of copper is the only reason Europe has higher operating voltages than USA. So compare fatalities between Europe and USA, and then come and tell me voltage dos not kill you.

uhhh again it's not the voltage it's the current (Amperage).
Simple ohms law, the higher the voltage the eaiser it is to PUSH Amperage (through you).

The higher voltage, the less resistance on the skin, and thus the higher the amperage E=I*R

So the higher the voltage yes, higher mortality rate. But it's not the voltage that's actually killing the person, just a result of there being more current...

 

[Young Frankenstein]

To quote Seahag "I have had a tank leak and stepped into the wet saltwater soaked carpet with bare feet, just skivy's and a beer, only to wake up on the ground about 6 feet back and spilled beer everywhere good thing I fell out of the wet zone."............even a worst accident, spilling good cold beer on the floor.....