even a 'fish only' will benefit from running a skimmer

Jeff,

Happy for ya! :D

Believe it or not, this is not strange in anyway.
Quite a few people DO just have things work for them!
Luck or not, it's something no one would complain about for sure.
:thumbsup:
 
Here is a interesting fact or should i say partial question. I have run skimmers on ever single tank that I have run. I adjust the water extremely low so I barely get skimmate I mean change once a month or so. Now I never have phosphate or nitrate problems and everyone who knows me always wonders how my tank is so stable after what I put it through haha. so is the benefit from nutrient export or aeration?


Both.

Eric Borneman's article is a terrific resource.
Notwithstanding the value of bacteria as part of the food web (and as yet not noted their ability to bind up "bad stuff" like inorganic nitrogen , phosphate and organic carbon and some metals); skimmers are valuable in exporting them and other amphipathic organics.
Amphipathic organics are those chains with positive and a negative charged molecules which are attracted to water on one side and repelled by it on the other. These amphipathic organics are trapped in the air/water interface between the bubbles . This includes many bacteria which are exportable along with the "bad stuff" they have absorbed and consumed. Other organics binding nutreints and metals are also skimmable if they are part of an amphipathic chain. Thus, metals accumulations can be minimized as can nutrient levels via skimming bacteria and bacterial byproducts that hold them.
Even more of the hydrophobic (repelled by water)variety of organics are attracted to granulated activated carbon.
Other things like silicate and metals along with inorganic phosphate can be adsorbed by granulated ferric oxide.

OK,so skim away ;get those bacteria and their bad stuff out; sure but:


if too many bacteria or organics are stripped from the water via skimming or otherwise "bad stuff" can more readily accumulate in unskimmable forms like toxic free metals nitrate and phosphate with nothing to bind them and bacterial poulations may be stripped down to a point detrimental to the food chian. This also makes a good argument against UV sterlizers btw.

A balance is important,imo and experience. Tough one since you can't measure for it and it will vary form tank to tank given a variety of variables in different tanks including the types of animals kept there. Keeping lot's of available food for the corals etc. going in the water while exporting inorganic nutrients , keeping free metals very low and avoiding excess organics is the trick.imo.

FWIW, I use two relatively large skimmers an ASM4 x and a 4xx with a combined water pass thrugh of about 2400gph for the 600 gallon puddle I use to play with fish and corals.
I also dose organic carbon( vodka and vinegar ) in moderate amounts to enocurage bacterial growth andI feed teh 40 plus fish and hudreds of corals in the puddle system heavily. GAC and GFO are also used.
A broad variety of corals thrive even as massive amounts of bacteia and "bad stuff" in them are exported in lots of funky skimmate. Pods,larve bacteriaplankton and a host of microfuana are always present in the water column and polyp extension is good. Sponge growth is proliferous,even my encrusting goniopoa has grown along with the oregon tort. PO4 stays at or undr .05ppm with NO3 <.2ppm . I use no mechanical filtration, which I think would have more impact on cirulating food web items than a skimmer..

So for me it's about feeding the fish and corals ,calms and anemones and , feeding the bacteria to consume the "bad stuff" left over as the foods degrade . The bacteria also severe as a planktonic food source and support other microfuana . AT the same time enough export via skimming,gac, gfo without mechanical filtration is done to reduce inorganic phospahte , nitrogen and organic carbon to levels that don't support nuisance algae or harm invetebrates.

Aeration is important particulary at night when photsynthetic activity stops and and autotrphic organisms stop producing oxygen and start respiring CO2. Nightime hypoxia can harm corals and other oganisms.
Skimmers help here significantly and can help ,even more so when a CO2 scrubber is used with them,ime.
 
tom, do you use a CO2 scrubber in your system? I just took home some soda lime CO2 absorbent pellets from work. was going to make a reactor and stick it on the air intake of my skimmer to see what effect on PH it has on my tank. any experience with this?
 
Der Wille zur macht,

I'm totally cool with that.

I'd never profess to have all the answers. I definitely have more questions than answers. Sometimes it seems like people don't think to ask the questions in the first place, hence sometimes I try to play devil's advocate in threads like this.

The high load people who don't skim, I have to believe they somehow got their balance in check

Yup, that's kinda my point - skimming isn't the only way to do it. And in some cases, skimming might be the worst way to do it, even though it's pretty much always the default way. The people I was referencing above, specifically, are using turf scrubbers, which can be extremely powerful assuming they kick off correctly. And to be honest, the scrubber I'm running on my tank isn't really kicking off "correctly" yet so I'm probably not the best spokesperson for the concept.
 
Yeah, the turf scrubbers are interesting. I heard about them actually a long time ago.
They've been around quite a while. Some public aquariums use giant system ones(in combo with a ton of other industrial size stuff of course)

A saw (can't remember exactly where at the moment) a really cool hobby tank- DIY BUILD scrubber a while back. The concept is interesting. As long as they've been around, they have not really had a big impact on the hobby yet. Not to say they couldn't. In the last few years more people have been trying more of them. I've seen positive reports as well as some that have criticized certain values in their usage... (but that's typical for anything) For me, they are something to just watch with interest for now. Once more people swear by them with some addtional comparitive results.. we'll start finding more and more people trying it. I think a couple companies made a couple designs (or parts) for sale.. But that is not a practical item to market fully just yet. Definitely something to watch!
 
I think perhaps people try to maintain fish only tank like reefs. In my opinion it's important to tailor the equipment to what is being kept in a tank. Not debating the pros vs cons on the use of skimmers but in some tanks they could be close to useless, while in others its a must.
 
Even in "some" LFS.. LOL which I really can't understand in a fish shop that should "know better". & I'm not just talking about in-system holding tanks... But even on their BIG stand alone displays! (no skimmers) :hmm5:

You would think LFS would know to use skimmers for everything and most size of tanks, but I actually witnessed a saleperson tell a lady skimmers were only for tanks over 200 gallons....:debi:

Ironically, they sold the Tunze 9002 in the shop.
 
How would running a protein skimmer necessarily allow you to keep more challenging to maintain species?
*reef aquarists bear with us here because conditions in a reef aquarium housing living corals are usually FAR superior to those conditions found in a typical "fish only" marine aquarium*

Fritz: for example.... Tangs. Especially Paracanthurus (Hippo) and Acanthurus species Tangs. They fare very poorly in the presence of degraded water conditions. Among "fish only" marine aquarists, many species of Tangs can be a challenge to maintain. The presence of liverock and some algae growth in their system may help keep them healthy but generally speaking, Acanthuriids greatly benefit from the use of a protein skimmer.
 
Seems a skimmer could be detrimental to live food populations.
I've never found this to be true. In fact, I believe the opposite: using a skimmer allows for a larger live food population. A skimmer allows you to feed ANY aquarium more food which in turn allows for a larger naturally occurring live food (amphipod etc.) population.
 
Which is exactly what I was "taking out of that" in general without listing specific species. Reef fish in general, mostly come from pristene conditions unlike deeper water ocean fish. Some RF may not be as sensitive.. but Tangs are a great example.
Overtime, water conditions "could" deterirorate in an un skimmed FO.. even with good water changes- the skimming is only going to "help". As opposed to being not needed.
 
I've never found this to be true. In fact, I believe the opposite: using a skimmer allows for a larger live food population. A skimmer allows you to feed ANY aquarium more food which in turn allows for a larger naturally occurring live food (amphipod etc.) population.

I totally agree with this. I've skimmed all my tanks and in 5 reefs (not my current one) over a period of a couple years, I've seen pod populations go from a few dozen roughly to thousands or more and stay there. I've never seen skimming reduce pods! ??
 
May I edit one of your sentences in order to try to illustrate the point I was making earlier?

suitable efforts to improve nutrient export and/or aeration is(are) only going to "help". As opposed to being not needed.

In other words, don't concentrate on the equipment. Concentrate on the function you're trying to achieve.
 
Continuing to play devil's advocate. I hope you guys aren't sick of me yet.

I've skimmed all my tanks

I've seen pod populations go from a few dozen roughly to thousands or more and stay there.

If you've always skimmed all your tanks, how do you know pod populations wouldn't go EVEN HIGHER without a skimmer? I'm not arguing that they would per say, just making sure we aren't assuming they wouldn't.
 
Understood completely der wille :thumbsup:

We can solve this more than one way.
I just personal prefer the skimmer (for the most part),
to do this. Even in different styled tanks, with different goals/parameter issues.

I also don't know everything, or proclaim to and I can see benefits in different tanks with regular or even "decreased" skimming in some cases.
But I don't see how a skimmer is completely useless in "any" tank, regardless of style.
 
With or without- skimming I won't say pod population is going to be high or low in anyones case. I think there's a bit more to growing pods that than skimming or not.

Just feel that although a pod population in a particular case "may" be HIGH without a skimmer on a tank. I don't believe having a skimmer is really going to reduce a population. I don't see it making a difference eitherway on pod population.
Some people must think skimming sucks the life out of pod growth... I don't see it.

I don't see a problem with having one and growing a huge population of pods. As well as doing it without a skimmer.
 
tom, do you use a CO2 scrubber in your system? I just took home some soda lime CO2 absorbent pellets from work. was going to make a reactor and stick it on the air intake of my skimmer to see what effect on PH it has on my tank. any experience with this?

Here are mine with a description, see post #54. Been using them for over a year and a half.:thumbsup:. Useful in raising ph :thumbsup:
 
Gary - I now get your point regarding fish only tanks with skimmers and sensitive fish.

I've never found this to be true. In fact, I believe the opposite: using a skimmer allows for a larger live food population. A skimmer allows you to feed ANY aquarium more food which in turn allows for a larger naturally occurring live food (amphipod etc.) population.

I'm not sure the answer is quite that simple. Would you need to be feeding more food to sustain the larger live food population if you weren't skimming out so many nutrients? Or would the food chain be more complete? That is what I wonder. I don't know the answer.

If the end result of using the skimmer is fewer nutrients in the aquarium, assuming at least some of those nutrients could be used as food, even if you're feeding more, the end result is still fewer nutrients.

And I think it depends what types of foods we're talking about, and what type of system you are running. For example, if you are able to feed live foods like rotifers and phytoplankton and remove enough excess nutrients without viciously stripping the water column of dissolved organics/small particles/etc./who knows what else, I don't think there is any question that a skimmer would reduce live food populations.

Just more food for thought. I hope to be able to add more to this discussion when the system I'm working on is complete. It will be unusual. :)
 

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