Hey! So i tattoo in NY and just put a small all in one tank in my station and everyone loves it, exept a "nurse" who got the boss all up in arms saying its a huge health hazard to have the salty dirty water in a tattoo shop and now he wants it out. I am convinced there are no hazards and am on a mission to prove it. if i am wrong please tell me and i will move the tank. laymens terms please, these guys think salt in the air from the water evaporation might make them sick...
expert opinion needed on Aquarium in sterile enviroment
- Thread starter 72xmulch
- Start date
J. Montgomery
Mouth Pipetting
A tattoo shop is not a sterile environment. The tattooing equipment should all be sterile, but the room is not. I fail to see the problem with an aquarium near your work area.
People eat and drink in the shop, and theres probably a restroom as well. I think that eating, drinking, and using the restroom are much more likely to be a contamination fear.
People eat and drink in the shop, and theres probably a restroom as well. I think that eating, drinking, and using the restroom are much more likely to be a contamination fear.
FWIW, it is well known to medical professionals that aquaria are filled with a lot of bacteria, some of them pathogenic. Get a cut under reef tank water and go the the emergency room and many of them will key in on the concern for infection.
I have no idea what effects it might have in a tattoo business, but a reef tank would never be allowed in a medical operating room.
Popping bubbles can transfer droplets into the air that might harbor bacteria. The risk is likely small, but it cannot be proven to be zero, IMO.
I have no idea what effects it might have in a tattoo business, but a reef tank would never be allowed in a medical operating room.
Popping bubbles can transfer droplets into the air that might harbor bacteria. The risk is likely small, but it cannot be proven to be zero, IMO.
There are more than thirty species of marine bacteria pathogenic to humans; including Aeromonas hydrophila (a cause of serious wound infections), Plesiomonas shigelloides (gastroenteritis) Clostridium perfringens (source of gas gangrene), Clostridium tetani (tetanus), Erysipelothrix rhusopathiae ("Fish handler's disease, "blubber finger"), Pseudomonas aeruginosa (cause of hot tub dermatitis), Mycobacterium (marinum), as well as numerous Vibrio species (Vibrio vulnificus, septicemia).
Then there are the species which can be found in saltwater, probably less likely in an aquarium, but still possible; Hepatitis A, Vibrio cholerae (Cholera), Escherichia coli, Salmonella typhi (typhoid fever),
There are also many viruses found in saltwater, including Norwalk virus, Hepatitis as above, Rotavirus...
Then there are the envenomations from things such as palyotoxin, and the parasites that the livestock could be harboring...
Then there are the species which can be found in saltwater, probably less likely in an aquarium, but still possible; Hepatitis A, Vibrio cholerae (Cholera), Escherichia coli, Salmonella typhi (typhoid fever),
There are also many viruses found in saltwater, including Norwalk virus, Hepatitis as above, Rotavirus...
Then there are the envenomations from things such as palyotoxin, and the parasites that the livestock could be harboring...
JNye
Moved On Up
do either of you recommend not putting hands in the reef tank with open wounds, i am not talking about fresh, but i always have cuts and scrapes and such from work. I am not concerned in the least just wondering your opinion on that. also with all the thousands of aquarists over the years have there ever been any documented cases of a pathogen or the like transmitted this way?
i agree with j mont, if you wanna run it like a medical operating room that is fine, but then you got a lot of changes to make more than likely. eating, smoking, hand washing constantly...
i agree with j mont, if you wanna run it like a medical operating room that is fine, but then you got a lot of changes to make more than likely. eating, smoking, hand washing constantly...
I would use gloves.
And yes, there are many such cases.
Take for example one of the more rare of the above, Mycobacterium marinum, there are an estimated 500+ cases per year in the U.S. and hundreds of articles in the literature describing case reports.
http://archderm.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/6/698
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/154/12/1359 (31 cases, literature review)
http://archinte.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/162/15/1746 (63 cases, 53 from aquariums)
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-4362.2000.00916.x
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=268228
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...d.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSumarticles
(18 month old who got it from indirect contact with a bucket used for aquarium water)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=8340185&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google (18 cases)
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...ium+marinum+aquarium+OR+saltwater&btnG=Search (Google Scholar, more articles)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez (PubMed, more articles)
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-07/sp/feature/index.php (2 mild cases, with pics)
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Not necessarily true. First, I only referenced M. marinum and even then, the 18 month old got the infection from indirect contact. Below is a case of 6 month old who got A. hydrophila from a home aquarium and need an urgent kidney transplant. Most mycoplasms transmit quite well airborne (i.e. M. pneumoniae, M. tuberculosis), so although it has not been studied in depth, I would imagine M. marinum would as well.
I should point out that M. marinum is not an easy disease to treat.
It requires prolonged treatments (3 to 12+months) of usually multiple drugs. Rifampin, one of the more commonly used, has serious potential side effects including renal failure and cerebral hemorrhage. With invasive infections, surgery is frequently required.
Clostridium tetani is transmitted via airborne dust, Aeromonas hydrophila has been shown to transmit via indirect contact and/or aerosols, Salmonella has been suspected to been transmitted by aerosol, Legionella is well known to airborne transmit.
Hepatitis, which I would think would be a concern in this setting, transmits via aerosol. The airborne mode of transmission has even been suspected of causing epidemics.
It is also well known that bacterial and other pathogens, including ich, can transmit via aerosol from one tank to another in the same room, so it is clear that aquariums do generate aerosols.
So, although there are no indisputable studies demonstrating a clear link between aerosol transmission from an aquarium causing disease that I could find, I believe it would be plausible.
As above, there is clear evidence of human disease being transmitted by home aquariums. Although rare, many of these diseases have significant morbidity associated with them and some possible mortality. There is also evidence of pathogens being spread aerosol/airborne in between aquariums.
All of this said, I do not believe one can say there is no hazard to health associated with an aquarium, which by the way is true of just about an animal/pet. Exactly how much of a hazard there is hard to say as these is just not a subject that is heavily researched.
As to whether or not an aquarium can be close to a tattooing station, or if the low risk warrants its removal, I would leave that up to whichever agency regulates the industry.
And Randy is correct, a reef tank (or even house plants) would not be allowed near an OR.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1980.tb18918.x
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1016/j.femsle.2005.08.040
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=88758
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5637880
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Aerosols.html
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/citation/87/1/99
http://www.questia.com/googleSchola...yjvFQWSG0dCpFqqQfqdYkPfdxZy97hhQd1CFL899S06cz!808205761?docId=5002499410
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no11/03-0192.htm
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deuce6371
Premium Member
In a perfect world it makes sense that if you do your tatoo work on one side of the room and the aquarium is on the other then it should be okay, right? How is the bacteria from the tank going to get out of the water, and get all the way over to the other side of the room. I am in a business that produces sterile drugs and my job is to figure out just that. Beleive me, bacteria do travel. Whether it is carried by people, equipment or just floating through out the air attached to dust, lint and the like.
The most likely scenario here would be crosscontamination to the clean environment after doing maintenance, water changes, feeding and such. I have been able to track bacterial populations that started on one side of a large production plant and ended up in the sterile environment. Despite, Hepa filtration, cleaning and disinfection regiments, totally sterile gowns that coverall all skin before entering the room but still they got in and caused problems.
The important thing to remember that the aquarium is a neverending resevoir that constantly contributes bacteria into your tatoo shop and after so long they will end up in the wrong place.
Hope that helps and sorry because I think everyone needs a tank where they work.
The most likely scenario here would be crosscontamination to the clean environment after doing maintenance, water changes, feeding and such. I have been able to track bacterial populations that started on one side of a large production plant and ended up in the sterile environment. Despite, Hepa filtration, cleaning and disinfection regiments, totally sterile gowns that coverall all skin before entering the room but still they got in and caused problems.
The important thing to remember that the aquarium is a neverending resevoir that constantly contributes bacteria into your tatoo shop and after so long they will end up in the wrong place.
Hope that helps and sorry because I think everyone needs a tank where they work.
dsanfilippo
Member
Let's be realistic on how sterile we are talkin' about here...it is a tattoo shop, I have several myself, and they weren't done in an O.R. sterile environment. I think you'll be okay, but what do I know, with as much water as I have been in in the aquarium, I should be dead by now according to the doc.
ryan_paskadi
New member
Yes the Dr. does not know what he is talking about, and the articles he provided prove nothing. (Sarcasm)
I agree a tattoo shop is not OR sterile, hell it is less sterile then my bathroom.
Yes, there possible health risks with a reef tank. The question really is, are those risks greater than the ones already present in a tattoo shop. I think that direct or indirect exposure to the water in the tank has risk, but the aerosol risks associated with the tank seems to be kind of ridicules to consider.
So reef tanks and ornamental fish tanks seem to be rather common in a lot of dental shops. I saw one shop where the walls and doorways were literally one big custom tank. Dentists need to work in nearly OR sterile environment and if they can manage a reef tank, I should think that a tattoo shop is not even worth the debate.
I agree a tattoo shop is not OR sterile, hell it is less sterile then my bathroom.
Yes, there possible health risks with a reef tank. The question really is, are those risks greater than the ones already present in a tattoo shop. I think that direct or indirect exposure to the water in the tank has risk, but the aerosol risks associated with the tank seems to be kind of ridicules to consider.
So reef tanks and ornamental fish tanks seem to be rather common in a lot of dental shops. I saw one shop where the walls and doorways were literally one big custom tank. Dentists need to work in nearly OR sterile environment and if they can manage a reef tank, I should think that a tattoo shop is not even worth the debate.
So reef tanks and ornamental fish tanks seem to be rather common in a lot of dental shops.
You'll typically see such tanks in the waiting room. Ever see one in the examining room?
You'll typically see such tanks in the waiting room. Ever see one in the examining room?
Aerosol transmission of fish diseases from one tank to another are very well documented. When an air bubble breaks in the tank, aerosol droplets of water are released at rather incredible rates of speed and capable of going quite some distance. The reason we aren't all infected with those nasties the Doc mentioned, those bugs don't really like our nice warm bodies. Hence, while some of the bugs are very common environmentally, they are not very infectious to us. However, sometimes they do manage to grab hold and infect people on occasion. Those occasions are worth considering.
kzooreefer
New member
I'm been in many doctors and dentists offices who have very large reef and other types of marine aquariums in their waiting rooms. You are also more likely to get an infection in a hospital than any where else. This is part of the reasoning behind more out patient surgeries. Less time in which to contract an infection. As far as having a tank right next to your work station I think that might be pushing it. Put it out in the waiting area.
spartacusFL
New member
My daughter just hade surgey at Wolfson Childrens Hospital in Jacksonville. They have saltwater tanks all over the hospital and not just in the waiting rooms and such. The was a 100 gal. just outside her recovery room next to the nurses station. I would think that if there was even the most minute risk associated with the tanks, they would not be there. They were not the best taken care of tanks at that.
JNye
Moved On Up
aren't here bigger risks to consider than this? i mean if i start worrying about and air bubble popping and some bacteria that has a slim chance of infecting me somehow manages to infect me and cause damage worthy of a hospital visit, i mean c'mon, your boss just doesn't like you.
FishTruck
Premium Member
Waiting rooms are different than procedure rooms. Also, the human mouth is one of the dirtiest environments on the planet, so, the concern for infection related to a nearby fish tank is probably less in the densit's office.
However, I am not sure I have seen a dentist's office where a tank is in the procedure area.
Really, you have to respect the owners perception of liablity attached to a fish tank. This is what it boils down to... If someone gets a red finger after a tatoo and calls the nice smiling lawyer on the back of the yellow pages to say that they think the fish tank looked really dirty the day they got infected from your tatoo shop, I would guess that you are looking at a no brainer 20 thousand dollar settlement.
Hospitals carry plenty of coverage for that sort of thing.
R
However, I am not sure I have seen a dentist's office where a tank is in the procedure area.
Really, you have to respect the owners perception of liablity attached to a fish tank. This is what it boils down to... If someone gets a red finger after a tatoo and calls the nice smiling lawyer on the back of the yellow pages to say that they think the fish tank looked really dirty the day they got infected from your tatoo shop, I would guess that you are looking at a no brainer 20 thousand dollar settlement.
Hospitals carry plenty of coverage for that sort of thing.
R
the question in my mind is this:
even though the risk is small, do you really want to take the chance of a customer getting a serious infection originating from your tank after receiving a tattoo from you?
if it happens to you the odds just went to 100% my friend and it will very hard to defend yourself.
btw DrBegalke, nice references!
even though the risk is small, do you really want to take the chance of a customer getting a serious infection originating from your tank after receiving a tattoo from you?
if it happens to you the odds just went to 100% my friend and it will very hard to defend yourself.
btw DrBegalke, nice references!
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