Extra CAlcium to use with 2 part???

[cthedaytrader]

jerpa and cthedaytrader, what makes you think that the system should be in some sort of "balance" between alk and calc? While it is correct that calc and carb are used in a certain proportion the aquarium water does not have to have a certain "balance", as long as both are in the correct range and farily steady (more important for alk)

Also 2 part SHOULD be used for daily dosing AND ALSO for one time fixes, not sure why you state that they should not be used to raise levels to desired amounts? What do you think is in Turbo calcium? Why would that be different than the 2 part calcium?

I would leave the detailed descriptions to Randy. However, I have read most if not all of his articles over the years and thats usually what i am thinking about when I am dealing with my tank or offering advice.

The sticky in the forum has most of the articles, here are few that explain it far better then I ever could.

Calcium and Alkalinity

A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

A Homemade Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Additive System
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...l2004/chem.htm

Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

spawn I will try and post a pic of my tank as you requested as a reference in a little while.

btW I couldnt see the pics from the cpu I was on earlier but sweet tank!

 

[nanojg]

And where do those articles advocate a certain balance? Or that two part should NOT be used to make one time corrections to levels?

 

[LouH]

How much are you adding each day?



I think you may be misunderstanding the process. The loss of calcium and alkalinity by reducing the salinity is very, very small.

If you are using my DIY two part, once you dose a full gallon of both parts, you'd remove 3.25 gallons of tank water to offset the salinity rise.

To gauge the lose due to that salinity correction, that 3.25 gallon correction contains only 3.8% of the calcium added and only 0.4% of the alkalinity added. Those proportions are probably about the same for all commercial two parts as well.

Randy, when I corresponded with you on this exact subject, I was using recipe 1 at the time. I've since switched to recipe 2. Is it not correct to reduce my tank water removal rate to 1.625 gallons:1 gallon of 2-part added considering that recipe 2 is half as potent as recipe 1?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, that would be correct.

It is the percentage of calcium and alkalinity removed by the salinity corrections that are the same among all two parts, not the gallons that need to be removed. Maybe I was unclear.

 

[LouH]

No, you were clear. We were discussing Recipe 1. I just wanted to make sure I was managing this aspect of water chemistry correcctly after the recipe change.

Thanks Randy.

 

[jerpa]

And where do those articles advocate a certain balance? Or that two part should NOT be used to make one time corrections to levels?

They dont advocate a starting "balanced" number for alk and calcium. What they do advocate is adding 2 part in balanced doses to make up for coral consumption UNLESS you dose differing amounts to make up for a salt mix that has different levels than you keep your system at. Your right that as long as alkalinity and calcium are both within the acceptable ranges your tank will be fine. If you dose differing amounts for a prolonged period of time, and it's not due to your salt mix, you will drive whichever your dosing more of perpetually higher. I'm sorry I wasn't being clear.

And I agree you can use 2 part, or any other separate calcium and alk supplements, to correct your levels.

 

[spawn2]

So last night after adjusting up for almost 24 hrs & a 5 gall WC on/out of 55 GWV my Ca had risen to 400 & the sal had dropped to .027. The dose rate is 231ml per day. Just tested the Ca again 22 hrs later & it has fallen to 360. Both test values were achieved twice. According to the BRS calculator that is a drop of 225.1ml. ***!!! This is what I have been dealing with. IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE?

Randy what is your opinion on what is going on in my tank?

 

[spawn2]

I just tested
Mg 1400
Alk 9.1 <10.4 in 23 hrs.
I have no idea what is going on.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That calcium result is testing error of some sort. Calcium cannot fall from 400 ppm to 360 ppm in 22 hours. For that to happen, alkalinity would have to drop by 5.6 dKH.

Keep tracking it without adding anything for a few days.

Is the alk dropping from 10.4 to 9.1 dKH in 23 h? That is certainly possible. The calcium drop then should be on the order of 8 ppm.

Again, let's add nothing for another couple of days and track the drop.

 

[spawn2]

That calcium result is testing error of some sort. Calcium cannot fall from 400 ppm to 360 ppm in 22 hours. For that to happen, alkalinity would have to drop by 5.6 dKH.

Keep tracking it without adding anything for a few days.

Is the alk dropping from 10.4 to 9.1 dKH in 23 h? That is certainly possible. The calcium drop then should be on the order of 8 ppm.

Again, let's add nothing for another couple of days and track the drop.

I'm starting to see a slight recession @ the bases of a couple acro's that was seen before & corrected by increasing the alk. I was running the alk lower @ 8. When I started having these issues with keeping up Ca, several months ago, I raised both. The slight recession stopped & growth @ the edges of the base came back & increased. I won't add anything further, but the prospect of turning off the doser, admittedly has me nervous. I don't want to have any harsh swings. I'll pick up another test kit on my way home from work this aft. Also will try & have a friend test comparatively.

 

[spawn2]

So testing with a new kit didn't show any changes. I did not turn off the doser. Ca is now at 385 alk is still down @ 9dkh. The only thing that I have done is take out more tank water & replace with r/o. It seems to be maintain sal. better & helped to raise Ca a little.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't really see how the coral problems could be attributed to 9 dKH being too low. It is way above anywhere in the ocean, and very large numbers of reefers keep corals fine at 7-8 dKH.

If you want to boost the calcium, give it just the calcium part to 420 ppm.

 

[spawn2]

I don't really see how the coral problems could be attributed to 9 dKH being too low. It is way above anywhere in the ocean, and very large numbers of reefers keep corals fine at 7-8 dKH.

If you want to boost the calcium, give it just the calcium part to 420 ppm.

I dont get it either, as I used to run @ 7.5.... just when growth had slowed & the slight recession showed @ the base of the 2 corals, as well as wanting to see if there was an increase in the thickness/health of the coral tissue, I decided to raise the alk. When I did, the recession stopped.

I will work on boosting the Ca further. I'm curious what was the calculation you used to figure the amount of water I'm to re/re based on the GWV of my tank. Thx Sean

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wonder if your alk test kit might be inaccurate?

As to the water volume, it is a bit of guesswork based on the look, but in many reefs, something like 20% of the volume might be taken up by solid rock and such, but then you have to add sump volumes, etc.

 

[spawn2]

I'm using a hanna checker for alk, & believe it to be accurate....
I am & have been going with a GWV of 55 gal. Based on the tank being the rsm 250 which is 65 NG. I have very close to 65 pounds of rock & 40lbs of sand. The thing I've wondered about this year though, is with the large growth of the corals, is there a further reduced GWV.

 

[bertoni]

I'd get a second opinion on the checker. It seems to be a reasonable product, but any device can fail. The increased size of the corals will reduce the water volume somewhat, but I don't know a good way to measure that.

 

[spawn2]

So i've not checked the para's in a couple of weeks until last night, to not much surprise the Ca value has fallen to 250 now while alk is @ 9.5. The salinity issue seems to have been resolved though & is @ .026 by Re/Re with RO. Dosing is @ the rate of 231 Ml of both parts equally, that's 4.2 ml per gal,MG is still @ 1400. Any suggestions on what to do for the Ca? Should I just crank it?

 

[tmz]

The calcium won't go down without taking alkalinity with it . As calcium carbonate
(skeletal mass)is formed a 20ppm reduction in calcium takes 50ppm of carbonate /bicarbonate or 1 meq/l of carbonate alkalinty ( 2.8 dkh) with it. Something is amiss with the testing, dosing measures / mixes or the salt mix and water changes.

FWIW, I maintain tanks stuffed with relatively fast growing sps on kalk dosed 24/7 with only rare occasional tweaks with baked baking soda for a little extra alk. Calcium is not a problem as I use a salt mix relatively high in calcium.

I agree, 9dkh is plenty for sps . Constancy is key,ime. Problems seem to follow bounces up or down in alk even within the acceptable range of 7 to 11 dkh.ime.

What's the PO4 btw?

 

[spawn2]

Calcium is always testing stupid low & has for the last 8-9 months.. I've switched test kits, still low. As randy has said this system will demand lots of Ca, & I know the two should go down together. I don't get it what's happening. last time I checked PO4 was 0 on hanna. I Don't think I believe because there r a few bits of algae & some leafy stuff. But that could also be due to die off of quite a few hermits that I could not get out prior to interceptor treatment. pretty low though I would guess, other than my purple acro's are pretty washy. but thats a different issues for a different thread.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What type of water do you use for top off?

Are you adding any buffers or pH boosters?