Faltworm exit

[tmz]

I've used this treatment in the past for acoel flatworms without issues but have heard reports and seen some devastation post treatment on a least two occasions when it was used by seasoned knowlegable local reef keepers. So if you choose to use it be very careful with the dose , siphoning out dead or dying flatworms,water changes and running lot's of gac.
I probably won't use it again except as a dip.

This recent thread is disturbing:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2189408

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

thanx for the heads up

thanx for the heads up

I've never had to use the stuff. I wonder why?

 

[tmz]

Probably never put acoela in your tank or you have an effective predator.. I have some in a frag tank and the 2 green spotted mandarins and sixline wrasse in there don't cut it. None in the displays which get the same water . I have several halichoeres chirrhilabrus and macropharngodon wrasses in them though though.

 

[Capt_Cully]

Not sure of the genus & species but I had the little brown FW in my refugio only on my old tank. Never saw them in the display but I did have a spotted mandarin the size of my thumb and a six line that weighed about 2 lbs. my guess is they were doing the house keeping. I took my refugium off line and treated it with FWE. Never saw them again. Strange. I'm not foolish enough to believe they were isolated to the refugium, but they were irradicated to my eye, for a year or two after I treated.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Probably never put acoela in your tank

I've had them. Never had to use chemical control though. Probably a combo of predators and a scant amount of flatty foods that prevents them from becoming a problem.
The little red toast flatties appear to thrive on cyanobacteria.

 

[tmz]

I don't know, the food goes into the displays which have none ; not much in the fragtank, No cyano either and mine are the little red ones. I used to think it was a nutrient issue but those have been very low for years. I do move a good number of corals in and don't always dip enough. The bunch I have now were treated twice with fwe but came back. I wont up the dosage or leave it in longer given the issues some folks are having with it lately. I just blow them off once in a while . They are not exploding.May be the sixline will do a better job as it gets larger. They aren't too much trouble. Frags I trade are dipped in fwe without any apparent stress. .

 

[BuffaloReef]

I remember when Flatworm Exit came on the market. I had a smaller soft coral tank that became infested with flatworms. I tried every other remedy available and nothing worked. I used Flatworm Exit and it eradicated them. I followed the directions and my tank looked like a mess. The water turned brownish and my skimmer went nuts. Afterwards I did a huge water change and and replaced the carbon. It worked and although all the corals and fish made it through I later noticed the population of little keyhole limpets had nearly been eliminated. I don't know if that was due to the Flatworm Exit or toxins released by the dead flatworms. Ever since everything that goes in a tank gets a dip in Flatworm Exit. I haven't had a tank running in awhile so I haven't used it in years. It's possible the formula was changed slightly or there are some bad batches going around. I'll continue to dip.

That thread leads me to believe that some people are essentially dosing with Flatworm Exit. It's a toxin that kills flatworms and certainly not just flatworms. The poster mentioned nudibranchs, though not the species. They can be incredibly toxic taking in whatever toxins they feed on and condensing them. It's possible the coral deaths are as a result of the nubranchs dying.

Flatworm Exit, IME, is a great product to keep nuisance fkatworms from getting into your system but it should be a last resort in a display tank.

 

[block head]

Used it with great results. 28g to 180 +. It is poison. Care must be used. A great portion of society cannot follow simplistic instructions. I've no doubt people will continue to nuke their tanks.

 

[tmz]

That's a little harsh.

The folks who are having trouble with it that I know do follow instructions. I've used it with great care and lots of changed water post treatment and ok results sometimes in the past. Sometimes the acoel come back. Not sure what unseen damage it might have done to other organisms, though.
I'd feel better about it if I knew what was in it so I could take a look at how it works and what it might do to organisms other than acoel or the organics in the tank.

There have been a number of troubling reports lately from seasoned and disciplined reef keepers.

Here are two more opinions on chemical treatment for acoel from Anthony Calfo and Robert Fenner ,in their book: "Reef Invertebrates" ,pg. 179-180:

"...Chemcal Treatments:
Don't ty this at home. Some folks have cited the use of commercial and DIY remedies for selectively poisoning flatworms in hobby aquaria. With any kind of reasonable considration , we must concede that this is impractical if not wholly inappropriate for any system with living rock ,sand and invertebrates. There is no such wonder drug that will kill a specific variety of nuisance flatworm while leaving so many other desirable creatures of similar or sensitive anatomy unharmed( coral tissue, polychaete worms, snails.clams,etc.). If someone does in time tell you that a magic drug works on just that one species of pest ,ask how? It's a simple and fair question . In the meantime ,take our advice and pass ...

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Here are two more opinions on chemical treatment for acoel from Anthony Calfo and Robert Fenner ,in their book: "Reef Invertebrates" ,pg. 179-180:

"...Chemcal Treatments:
Don't ty this at home. Some folks have cited the use of commercial and DIY remedies for selectively poisoning flatworms in hobby aquaria. With any kind of reasonable considration , we must concede that this is impractical if not wholly inappropriate for any system with living rock ,sand and invertebrates. There is no such wonder drug that will kill a specific variety of nuisance flatworm while leaving so many other desirable creatures of similar or sensitive anatomy unharmed( coral tissue, polychaete worms, snails.clams,etc.). If someone does in time tell you that a magic drug works on just that one species of pest ,ask how? It's a simple and fair question . In the meantime ,take our advice and pass ...

I'm just glad Calfo and Fenner agree with me :spin1:

"My" spin on this pest: many of the smaller flatworm species are fairly harmless and have a self limiting population if proper reef conditions are maintained. Oftentimes the cure is worse than the problem. Over the past 18 years I've seen more (desirable) reef organisms killed by 'Flatworm Exit' than I have seen killed by flatworms themselves.

"My" suggestion: get a flatty pred. Many species to choose from. I used to have a snail that ate them. (Not sure what kind it was). My fav pred for flatties are Macropharyngodon- Leopard Wrasses.

 

[Randy15]

I used to have them. Think my fatty of a mystery wrasse snacked on them all haha

 

[block head]

The link posted says he used 2x the dose to kill nudis. My box has no instructions for nudis at all. Coming up with an accurate volume on my blueprinted 28 is difficult. I have no idea how he came up the 300 gallon number. He wasn t there when his tank crashed. Etc... fwe is serious stuff. Using it a causal manor could easily get someone in trouble fast. Working in manufacturing and woodworking, i routinely met people who couldn't read a tape measure or calipers. When people start using a product that requires several steps and careful observation, all bets are off IME. Muriatic acid gets people in trouble all the time.

 

[tmz]

I agree with carefully following portocols precisely when using stuff that may be harmful.
Not everyone I've heard from was cavalier in using it,though.

I think we are making the same point to a degree: it is dangerous to a reef tank ;more so if overdosed or used for a purpose other than the design but dangerous nonetheless. How dangerous at what level and to which organisms depends on how it works and what it is ;but, we don't know that. I ,personally, wont use it anymore except for dips on infested new specimens.

 

[block head]

That's the rub. A few flat worms , no big deal IMO . Suckers are hard to see. When conditions are right, they explode. Prevention is the best way to treat. Once they explode , its a mess. Suck out everyone i can see or can get to. Like roaches, its the infestation you dont see that gives you fits. At some point, u nuke them w fwe. Wait to long, and its worse. I end up doing a complete water change, and a follow up treatment. Its a big production. I don't really see an alternative in most cases.

 

[BuffaloReef]

I asked how it worked when it came out and it felt a lot like when I asked elementary school teachers how gravity works. It just does and that's wonderful!

Thinking about it again the stuff must be patented, otherwise other versions would be on the market. Patents are public, find the patent and you'll find out how it works. I did a very quick Google search with no luck. The patent number might be on he the box. Anyone feel like looking? If not, it's possible a search could find it either using Google or the US Patent Department.

Reading this thread has me wondering if metal halide or simply bright lights limit heir growth. I remember a tank at a LFS that had flatworms in a clam tank. They didn't become a nuisance because they stayed in the shaded sections of the few available rocks. The tank either had a 400 or 250 single ended MH bulb. Besides just being bright MH put out some UV light. All the talk about what LED's can and cannot do has me thinking MH are more than just bright lights.

 

[BuffaloReef]

The recipe might be a trade secret and not a patent... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1747486

Even if there isn't a convenient patent to look at we might sill be able to figure out what it is and how it works.