Fighting Ich ( tank transfer method ) Questions.

[reeferman1128]

By Drs. Foster & Smith Aquatic Veterinary Staff

In addition to having a negative effect on growth, reproduction, and digestion, chronic stress will also lower the ability of the immune system to respond effectively and fully. This lowered immune response is what allows parasites, bacteria, and fungi to infect a stressed fish and cause disease and death.

 

[MrTuskfish]

By Drs. Foster & Smith Aquatic Veterinary Staff

In addition to having a negative effect on growth, reproduction, and digestion, chronic stress will also lower the ability of the immune system to respond effectively and fully. This lowered immune response is what allows parasites, bacteria, and fungi to infect a stressed fish and cause disease and death.

Sure, the key word in the F&S statement is "chronic". Moving a fish isn't "chronic", far from it. A tang, living for a year in a small tank can have "chronic'' stress. The period involved in TT isn't conducive to anything "chronic".

 

[reeferman1128]

I ordered the 5 micron filter off amazon.com. $11 bucks shipped to my door. I have heard of people finding them for less but that was the best price i was able to find at the time.

 

[reeferman1128]

MrTuskfish,

With all due respect, you are the first person I have ever heard or seen mention that tank transfer is not stressful.

I am not sure why I or anyone would be lectured by the RC team for trying to reduce the stress of my pet fish.

I believe this forum is here for us to share our ideas and findings not talk down upon people sharing what has worked for them. Especially by those who help to facilitate this very helpful and respected site.

Am I wrong for feeling this way. Or maybe I am wrong for sharing what has worked for me and what makes sense scientifically. In fact isn't that was science is in itself, Theories that are either proven wrong or right.

science - The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

 

[MrTuskfish]

MrTuskfish,

With all due respect, you are the first person I have ever heard or seen mention that tank transfer is not stressful.

I am not sure why I or anyone would be lectured by the RC team for trying to reduce the stress of my pet fish.

I believe this forum is here for us to share our ideas and findings not talk down upon people sharing what has worked for them. Especially by those who help to facilitate this very helpful and respected site.

Am I wrong for feeling this way. Or maybe I am wrong for sharing what has worked for me and what makes sense scientifically. In fact isn't that was science is in itself, Theories that are either proven wrong or right.

science - The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Sorry if seemed harsh, I sure didn't mean to. Talking "down'' to anyone on the forum is never my intention but my language can make it appear that way. It happens when I get on soapboxes once in a while; just my nature & background. (I'm really just a warm little fuzzball.) Anything, within reason, that can be done to reduce stress in fish is a good thing--of course. This thread may not have been a prime example for my rant; but when sound and proven treatment procedures are altered or ignored in order to reduce fish "stress'; I'm just not convinced that's a good thing. Again, this thread may be a bad example, but it isn't unusual for folks to put off removing fish to a HT/QT; delay treatment of any kind, or even eliminating a QT regimen itself, in the name of "stress reduction. Bottom line, (as always, IMO & IME) no fish is going to perish because it is moved from one tank to another; they are much more likely to perish if treatment is delayed in any manner. Moving fish is more stressful on the owner than the fish, IMO. Chronic stress is a whole different discussion. BTW, I sure don't frown on any attempts to improve any treatment method; my own methods are so far from the norm, I don't even often discuss them.

 

[mos90]

mr tusk. what do u think about adding quickcure to the tank transfer method? it is seems like it could help.

also. im wondering if there will be an issue with quickcure and prime together? i did a google search and didnt come up with anything.

 

[MrTuskfish]

mr tusk. what do u think about adding quickcure to the tank transfer method? it is seems like it could help.

If this is a product (I think it is) that contains mal. green & formalin; I would never use it. The TT method alone will get rid of the theronts and (IMO & IME) any level of formalin & mal. green that is effective on ich is also dangerous to fish. Copper is the only med I trust to kill ich (not used with TT, of course) and using ANY med seems to defeat a big purpose of TT----an easy, mistake-proof cure for ich. Like running UV in a QT; this stuff may kill a few bugs, but that isn't good enough. 12 days of TT will, almost always, get them all. Why complicate it? Also, I sure don't like prolonged exposure to formalin (formaldehyde); IMO, its best used as a dip, primarily for brooklynella and velvet.

 

[mos90]

makes sence.

im just hoping i didnt misdiagnose and they actually have velvet. ive heard the "white spots" from velvet are not easily visible. these spots on my fish are clearly visible.

ive read there are a few strains of marine ich that are resistant to copper and hypo and u need to treat with crypto-pro.. i probably have this strain with my luck.

 

[reeferman1128]

Mos

Please keep in mind. Mr tuskfish is not saying it doesnt work. He is just say its not his preference. Everyone has their feel good method. I do respect his opinion as it probably has worked for him.

Formalin is just as effect at the same stages as copper. It is only effetive for a few hrs though hence why its used for dips the majority of the time. No parasite medicine is healthy for fish. It is a balancing act of killing the bug but not the fish. I use it as an insurance policy. Its just combining two recommended treatments that can be used in conjuction with eachother relatively safely.

And as you mentioned it might not be ich. If a fish can contract ich what are the chances it has something in addition or that it is something besides ich.

It wont hurt to do both.

 

[mos90]

i do understand that. i would rather not treat with meds if i dont have too. i will keep a close eye on things.

if i see improvements on the next transfer sunday i will feel better. so far the rest of the fish seem like they are doing ok. im a little concerned about the blue throat trigger. he just hides all day in a pvc pipe.

how is your treatment going?

 

[_Mackus_]

I posted this in the sticky, but this may be a better spot for it. Apologies if not:

I was about to try cupramine for the first time on a Kole tang I've had in my QT for about a week, but instead I think I'll try this method, which seems easier for a new-to-medicating person like myself.

Just to be sure I've got this right, can you let me know if I'm planning everything correctly?

I'm going to use 5 gallon buckets, as I typically only get one new fish at a time or perhaps two small guys. Will all the additional equipment I need be a small heater, powerhead, and maybe a thermometer, with one set for each dedicated tank/bucket? Is there any additional equipment I should use? Ammonia badge? HOB filter? Lights? PVC connectors for hiding spots?

Is a 75W heater too much for a 5-gal bucket? How about a 48 gph powerhead? Those seem to be the smallest/cheapest I can find online at the moment.

Day 1 - put the fish in bucket A
Day 4 - catch him (no net) and put him into bucket B, which is temp and salinity matched
Day 5/6 - empty, clean (with bleach?), and dry Bucket A and all equipment
Day 7 - catch fish in bucket B, put him in bucket A which now has new water, temp and salinity matched
Day 8/9 - empty, clean, and dry Bucket B and all equipment
Day 10 - catch fish in bucket A, put him in bucket B with new water
Day 11/12 - empty, clean and let dry Bucket A, put in storage
Day 13 - end of tank transfer method, put tang back in QT
Day 14 - empty, clean and let dry Bucket B, put in storage

Sounds like the standard method is to go straight from the LFS bag to the transfer method. However, I currently have my Kole tang in my QT tank. If I was planning on treating him with PraziPro, should I do that before or after the tank transfer method (he is already eating well), or not at all unless I see symptoms that require treatment? I understand while I do the transfer method, in the meantime I'll have to tear down and refill my QT prior to putting the tang back in there. If I treat with Prazi before the transfer method, should I put the fish back into the (new water, clean) QT after the transfer method is complete, or can I go straight into the DT with him?

 

[mos90]

i would use as much gallons as u can. it will be hard to keep ammo down in a 5gal bucket. i use heater, small powerhead, airstone and pvc. mine are 25gal buckets. i change 5 gals per day. i use prime with w/c's along with stresscoat.

your procedure looks correct. i wash my buckets and equiptment with a mild bleach solution then rinse with hot water and prime.

for your kole tang i would do the tank transfer, add him back to quarantine for a few more weeks. some people will treat prazi even if a fish seems healthy just to be safe. up to u. when im done i will to a prazi treatment for my fish.

 

[_Mackus_]

Thanks for the advice

I probably can't get much bigger than 5-gal buckets. Maybe 10. I don't have a ton of space to keep all my fish stuff (city rowhome), and am taking up a (relative) ton already with my 125gal display, 29gal QT, and 44-gal RODI container.

Should I get an ammonia badge for each of the buckets and maybe keep some amquel or something on hand if needed?

 

[mos90]

what u could do is use the 5's add amquel or prime everyday with a small waterchange.

 

[reeferman1128]

I have been using 5 gallon buckets for a yellow tang and two clowns. I only use a small 20 gallon heater with built in thermometer that shuts it off at a certain temp and an dual tube air pump which provides oxygen and a small amount of flow. I will net out any large poop from tang when I see it. Ammonia does not get to high but I test with API drops. I use two separate buckets allowing one to dry completely when not being used. Ive used a 10 gallon aquarium filled 1/2 way before as well. I will lightly scrub buckets with magic eraser before and after use. I usually just use large shells for structure and microwave them for 1 minute between transfers. Be careful they get real hot.

Your schedule seems fine from what I see. Although I am using a little medicine now because I have confirmed a parasite I would probably not if I was just doing for quarantine.

There may be some other methods to use. This one is effective and convenient.

 

[mos90]

you done yet?

 

[reeferman1128]

Including the original transfer from the main tank I will be completing the 7 transfer today. I have not seen one sign of ich since between the 1rst and 2nd transfer. Not one spot. All fish are eating like champs. My naked clown who was on his death bed seems to be in prefect health. I would absolutely use this method again. Hopefully with proper QT there will not be a necessity for this again.

The problem is I am only going on 3 weeks of fallow period and want to go at least another 3. I have not set up a filtration system so after this last transfer I am going to prolong transfer periods from 3 days to until I notice an ammonia increase in the transfer tanks. Should be 4 - 5 days.

 

[mos90]

why are u doing so many transfers? i thought 4 was enough.

i will just order new fish from the live aquaria divers dens to a 4 week quarantine. never have to worry again.

 

[reeferman1128]

Because I dont have filtration set up for the other 5 weeks of the fallow period. I am just going to keep doing tranfers untill the fallow period is over. No medicine though.

 

[reeferman1128]

It only takes me about 15 min to complete the transfer. Takes about an hr to dry/sterilze the heater properly.