First-Time Reefer. Coping With Loss.

[Zionas]

As a first-time reefer and an emotional guy who gets attached to things under my care (and those who care for me), I would really like to know the lifespans of some of the species I'm interested in. First of all, I've finally decided to go for a 24" by 24" by 24" cube reef setup that will be customized by the Chinese dealer. Due to space and budget constraints this is really the best I can go for. I believe it's 57 US long gallons. I have a hard time coping with death, coping with loss when I'm attached to someone / something. Maybe for me it's even harder because I've always wanted my own little piece of the ocean, I love water and marine life and feel connected to it. For those more superstitious folks, I'm also a Cancerian.


I know some corals can live for decades, but what I'm more worried about is this fish and inverts. Starting with the fish:
-Ocellaris Clownfish **
-Royal Gramma
-Yellow Candy Hogfish
-Pink Streak Wrasse
-Pajama Cardinalfish
-Clown Goby (Yellow or Green)
-Tailspot Blenny
-Bicolor Blenny
-Yasha White Ray Shrimp Goby
-McCosker's Flasher Wrasse
-Carpenter's Flasher Wrasse
-Ruby Longfin Fairy Wrasse
-Katherine's Fairy Wrasse
-Linespot Flasher Wrasse
-Blue Flasher Wrasse
-Multicolor Lubbock's Fairy Wrasse
-Yellowfin Flasher Wrasse
-Filamented Flasher Wrasse
-Golden Assessor Basslet
-Firefish
-Purple Firefish
-Helfrichi's Firefish



That's a lot of species I'm considering. I thought I'd take longevity into consideration because the feeling of watching a fish live its life or nearly full life under my care is just so satisfying. Regardless, I'll have a hard time with loss. I wonder if any of you can give me tips, or share with me how you personally cope with the loss of a treasured fish / invert / coral?

 

[alice 01]

Lovely looking list of fish there.
After suffering a disease outbreak in my tank I lost several fish and was absolutely devastated.
My fox face is buried in my garden now [emoji852]
I cannot purchase any fish for 3 months as I need to ensure there will be no disease present. But will take some inspiration from your list.
I had a carpenters flasher wrasse. He was my favourite.
I cannot advise life cycle as online resources vary so much and I've only been in the hobby for 5 years. (Had the foxface, clowns, and a bi color blenny for that time)

I think the best thing you can do Is always have a plan b.
Have medication and a hospital tank ready and available so if you do have a problem you can get on to doing what you have to do.
I found that knowing I did the best I could for them was the best way to cope with the loss.
Feeling there was a loss due to an error I made was the worst feeling so research carefully.
Stock tank slowly and do not impulse buy and always test your tank.
Do any changes gradually and be aware it's not just ammonia and nitrite to watch.


Best of luck.


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[Michael Hoaster]

Losing fish is perhaps the hardest part of the hobby. That, and battling algae. For me, the most important thing is to learn from my mistakes. So when the inevitable fish loss happens, I learn from it and don't make the mistake again. That way I know the fish's death teaches me how not to kill the ones that follow.

 

[Zionas]

Thanks for all the replies. Sure I could always get new fish, but my genuine hope is that at least some of the fish I end up getting will live long lives under my care. When I hear stories of somebody's Royal Gramma / Yellow Watchman Goby / Clowns living 10+ years, I'm like: Wow, if I got that lucky I'd be glad.

It's really the anxiety towards my future in the hobby that's killing me at the moment. Of course I can't predict it, maybe at some point I will indeed be able to get a bigger tank because I'm moving into a bigger place, maybe I'll have more than one tank and God knows what pathways I'll explore 3, 5, 10 years into the hobby. What I'll say is if I've got fish that can stick with me throughout a good portion of my journey, I'd be really proud.

 

[Zionas]

And if they happen to just reach the end of their life, they'll go to wherever fish go with my full blessing knowing that I've done my best for them under captive conditions, if that's the case I'll be at peace knowing I treated them well, treated them ethically and got as much enjoyment as I could have from them.

 

[ggfrancis]

Losing animal is part of the hobby, due to different factors from harvesting to home care. Overall, be patient. Stock your tank base on how much bioload your tank can handle. Overstocking doesn't lead to a successful reef keeping. Always, pick a healthy specimen and keep them fed and happy. Skinny fishes leads to out break. Invest on good equipments.


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[moondoggy4]

That is a lot of fish for a 57 gallon tank, I worry about the grasses, I would get some clowns,midas bleeny, lawn mower bleeny,https://www.liveaquaria.com/product...-bred-ora-reg?pcatid=3423&c=15+1500+5141+3423

and a Orchid Dottyback

 

[AwesomeDennis]

Your fish list is about twice as long as it should be for a 60g cube tank.

 

[Zionas]

I’m not saying I’m getting all of those fish. In these last couple of days, I’ve been revising the list and I now have a better idea. Please rate the suitability of these fish I am considering. I’ll be adding six to seven fish in total, I’ll begin with no more than 3. The plan is to introduce my first fish or two, then wait two weeks before adding another fish / pair. I am fully taking the longevity of my fish into consideration and trying my best to avoid short-lived species. Here’s my list so far:


I am a first-time aquarist with no prior saltwater (and pretty much no freshwater) experience starting a reef tank with only soft corals, at least for a year or so. I don’t want to afford the more expensive equipment needed to keep soft corals.

As for fish, I am looking for hardy, long-lived fish (that can hit the 10-year mark or more with good care and luck). Here’s what I’ve got in mind so far:

1. Ocellaris Clownfish-I will be getting a pair. It’ll either be the common variety or the Australian black variety. I heard they’re some of the, if not the easiest to care for and I’ve read multiple accounts of them doing 15+ years.


2. Yellow Watchman Goby-I love their coloration, and I might pair it with a shrimp. I’m not sure if they’re prone to jumping, but pretty much everyone tells me that they’re pretty hardy and I’ve read quite a few accounts of them living 10+ years.


3. Basslets (Royal Gramma, Swissguard, Yellow Assessor)-For the first two, I think they’re beautiful fish, they stay small, they’re not that prone to jumping (or maybe I’m wrong), and I’ve read how they can live pretty long lives with good care because they’re hardy (not sure if they can push 10+ regularly but one guy on a forum says his RG lived 13 years).

The Yellow Assessor is by far the mystery fish of the three. Nobody seems to know much about its hardiness and lifespan or in general. They command pretty high prices too, but I’d love to try my hand at one.



4. Dwarf Angelfish-I’m not sure if they’d be happy in a tank of my size, especially a tank that’s very new and without much algae growth. If I can get one of these they’d certainly be a / the centerpiece of my tank. I’m not sure which species would be the hardiest / most suitable for a beginner, most websites say Coral Beauty but I’m sure they are more.

Another thing I’ve read is to be wary if they’re collected from Indonesia because of cyanide poisoning. How do I get around that? I’m based in China and they do captive bred clowns but no captive bred dwarf angels yet. I will also be ordering my fish online from dealers that quarantine their fish usually from 3-7 days but only sell them if they’re eating (that’s what they claim, at least).

I’ve heard a few people say well-kept dwarf angels can do 10+ years.




5. Wrasses / Hogfish-If I get a Dwarf angel they’d be the co-star of my tank, but in the absence of a Dwarf Angel they’d be the centerpiece. No Fairy / Flasher / Possum / Pink Streak as I heard they’re pretty short-lives and heavy jumpers.

What I am really looking at are the Halichoeres (Yellow Coris, Adorned, Melanurus, Christmas, Vroliki’s, Red Lined) and the lined (Four, Mystery, Six). Hogfish I am looking at the Yellow Candy.

Which wrasses / hogfish are less likely to jump? I want to make a safer bet. I don’t know about Hogfish but I have read that those two genuses of Wrasses I mentioned live longer than the Fairy / Flasher and the very small ones.




6. Hawkfish-I heard they’re generally pretty hardy and able to live 10 years or more. However, would their aggression against fish be a problem? Do they jump a lot? Can I still keep inverts if I get one?



I would appreciate if any of you can rate the suitability of these fish for a new tank and a novice just getting his feet wet in the hobby. I’m thinking of putting the Clowns first (or maybe another fish if you think that’s better), with a 2-3 week gap between introducing each new fish.

Thanks.



1. What is a hardy Dwarf Angel? Are any of them suitable for a new tank? (And will I be able to keep one healthy and happy in a tank of this size?)

2. What is a good beginner Wrasse / Hogfish that is less likely to jump compared to some of the others? What are the longest-lived genuses / species?

3. What’s the average lifespan of a Basslet?

4. About the Golden Assessor. Can anyone tell me more about this fish?

5. If I get a Hawkfish, should it be added last or second last? Does that mean I won’t be able to keep inverts?


(These are some of the questions I’d love more insight on.)


Correction: My tank dimensions have also changed since. I’m getting a 33”x22”x24” tank, it’s the absolute best I can do for my apartment. I’ll also be covering my aquarium without holes, and if there’s a way to work on the overflow to add a further level of security I’ll go for it.

 

[Zionas]

I have recently purchased a small fridge / freezer. I’ll be using it to store some frozen foods such as brine and mysis shrimp. I’m getting meaty and plant-based pellets, flakes, freeze dried bug larvae, freeze dried plankton, and seaweed strips too.

As for water, would distilled water be OK or is it too risky compared to RO / DI water?

 

[five.five-six]

Losing fish is perhaps the hardest part of the hobby. That, and battling algae. For me, the most important thing is to learn from my mistakes. So when the inevitable fish loss happens, I learn from it and don't make the mistake again. That way I know the fish's death teaches me how not to kill the ones that follow.

I battled bryopsis for 2 years. I killed 5 fish last Saturday.

I was frustrated for the two year but I can barely even stand to look at my tank now.

I'm not going to embed the photo but you can click on the link if you want to see what I did

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2091/XWwF6j.jpg

 

[ThRoewer]

I try keeping all my fish in pairs as only that way you get their full range of behavior. It is also better for the fish.

Clownfish are easy to pair and if you get them as babies or juveniles you can keep them for 30 years with good care.

Gobies are even easier to pair than clownfish as they can change sex both ways. So I would suggest to just get two baby yellow gobies. The shrimp they live with in symbiosis are not that easy to sex so there you might keep it to a single for now.

Clown gobies may not live very long and I would advise against them if you plan on keeping branching corals as well as they are known to damage those.

Gramma can be kept in a group as long as you get them as babies. I have a group of 3 since beginning of 2014 and even after 6 years they show no signs of age. In a group their behavior is much more interesting than as a single.

With a relatively small tank I would advise against hyperactive fish or fish that get large.

That said, you can keep a pair of Marine Bettas in a tank that size as they are more stationary fish and don't need a lot of swim space. Marine Bettas can get at least as old as clownfish and as a pair in a tank with rather calm fish you will see them actually a lot. To get a pair you should try to get them as small as possible and one should be at least 25% larger than the other.

There are even some dottybacks that might be a good choice for a tank your size.

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[Zionas]

My bad, I ended up deciding on a 32”x22”x24” tank. I wonder if a tank like that would be good enough for a wrasse, or even a dwarf angel like a CB / Flame / Cherub / Flameback.

 

[Zionas]

I try keeping all my fish in pairs as only that way you get their full range of behavior. It is also better for the fish.

Clownfish are easy to pair and if you get them as babies or juveniles you can keep them for 30 years with good care.

Gobies are even easier to pair than clownfish as they can change sex both ways. So I would suggest to just get two baby yellow gobies. The shrimp they live with in symbiosis are not that easy to sex so there you might keep it to a single for now.

Clown gobies may not live very long and I would advise against them if you plan on keeping branching corals as well as they are known to damage those.

Gramma can be kept in a group as long as you get them as babies. I have a group of 3 since beginning of 2014 and even after 6 years they show no signs of age. In a group their behavior is much more interesting than as a single.

With a relatively small tank I would advise against hyperactive fish or fish that get large.

That said, you can keep a pair of Marine Bettas in a tank that size as they are more stationary fish and don't need a lot of swim space. Marine Bettas can get at least as old as clownfish and as a pair in a tank with rather calm fish you will see them actually a lot. To get a pair you should try to get them as small as possible and one should be at least 25% larger than the other.

There are even some dottybacks that might be a good choice for a tank your size.

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I find Dottybacks to be too aggressive, and I’m not sure about the availability of a Marine Betta. I’ve also heard it’s difficult to get them to start eating as they practically require live foods, at least at the start.


Would it be OK to pair two Yellow Watchman Gobies (small ones, or maybe a smaller one and a bigger one) regardless of their gender? Will they be likely to jump out of the tank or into the overflow?

What about Grammas and other Basslets (Swissguard, Yellow Assessor). Does size (I’m either going both small, or 1 big 1 small) and gender matter if I want to keep two?

Are either the YWG or the Basslets known to be jumpers?

 

[ThRoewer]

I find Dottybacks to be too aggressive, ...

I have a large Neon dottyback and in every tank I had him he was the one who got chased. He did, however, chase every small female I added to him out of the tank (quite literally!)
Orchid dottybacks are probably the most peaceful to other fish. Never had even the slightest issues with them.

...and I’m not sure about the availability of a Marine Betta. I’ve also heard it’s difficult to get them to start eating as they practically require live foods, at least at the start.

Availability might, of course, be an issue but if they are healthy food is not a problem. I have 2 pairs and a single and all eat everything from frozen to flakes. And they didn't need any special training or conditioning for that. I see them also pick pods like Mandarins at times.
In this video you can see one of my pairs going after flakes:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GOLOJ2BZOi4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Would it be OK to pair two Yellow Watchman Gobies (small ones, or maybe a smaller one and a bigger one) regardless of their gender? Will they be likely to jump out of the tank or into the overflow?

Gobies can change sex in both directions so a larger (will become the female) and a smaller will get you a pair.
Jumping may be an issue but if you keep them with a pistol shrimp they rather flee into the burrow than to the surface. A cover is still a good idea.

What about Grammas and other Basslets (Swissguard, Yellow Assessor). Does size (I’m either going both small, or 1 big 1 small) and gender matter if I want to keep two?

I had Yellow and Randal Assessors and 2 always got me a pair so I'm pretty certain they change sex like their close relatives the Marine Bettas.
But Assessors are very reclusive and in a bright tank with active fish, you may not see them much during the day. Usually, I see my Randals only in the morning before the lights come on.
I'm not sure if Gramma can change sex but if you start with 3 or more juveniles you are very likely to get a pair, possibly a harem group. Based on coloration and behavior I suspect that of my trio 2 are males and one is a female. The dominant male clearly looks the part (larger and thinner in body proportions) while the submissive male mimics a female to avoid aggression. He does however frequently try to convince the female to mate with him...

 

[Zionas]

I have a large Neon dottyback and in every tank I had him he was the one who got chased. He did, however, chase every small female I added to him out of the tank (quite literally!)
Orchid dottybacks are probably the most peaceful to other fish. Never had even the slightest issues with them.


Availability might, of course, be an issue but if they are healthy food is not a problem. I have 2 pairs and a single and all eat everything from frozen to flakes. And they didn't need any special training or conditioning for that. I see them also pick pods like Mandarins at times.
In this video you can see one of my pairs going after flakes:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/GOLOJ2BZOi4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Gobies can change sex in both directions so a larger (will become the female) and a smaller will get you a pair.
Jumping may be an issue but if you keep them with a pistol shrimp they rather flee into the burrow than to the surface. A cover is still a good idea.


I had Yellow and Randal Assessors and 2 always got me a pair so I'm pretty certain they change sex like their close relatives the Marine Bettas.
But Assessors are very reclusive and in a bright tank with active fish, you may not see them much during the day. Usually, I see my Randals only in the morning before the lights come on.
I'm not sure if Gramma can change sex but if you start with 3 or more juveniles you are very likely to get a pair, possibly a harem group. Based on coloration and behavior I suspect that of my trio 2 are males and one is a female. The dominant male clearly looks the part (larger and thinner in body proportions) while the submissive male mimics a female to avoid aggression. He does however frequently try to convince the female to mate with him...

I think I'm going to consider getting a pair of YWGs with a bigger one and a smaller one. Smaller one maybe 3-4cm, bigger one 5-6cm. Would that work? Also, to clarify, you suggested only getting one pistol shrimp for both Gobies at first?

I'd love to hear more about the Assessors. What about their hardiness and lifespan? Can I safely keep a pair in a tank (does gender and size need to be considered?)? Are they just as easy as a Royal Gramma / other basslet even if wild caught?

Marine Bettas are huge! They get to 20cm max. My tank is only 73 gallons.

 

[ThRoewer]

If you can sex the pistol shrimp (fairly easy with the large Tiger shrimp, quite difficult with the smaller Candy canes) you can get two. Of the Candy canes you can keep several of the same sex in a tank of your size and therefore just get a larger number and hope there is at least one male and one female in the mix to pair up. It's how I do it these days.
If you want to be sure that the gobies pair up I would suggest starting with just one shrimp (or a pair if you can get one) and add more shrimp later in the hope to ge a pair of them as well (the behavior of a goby pair with a shrimp pair is extremely interesting).
All that said, yellow gobies are best paired with the larger Tiger Pistol Shrimps so pairing or at least sexing of the one you add should be done before you add it.

Wild Assessors, if you can get healthy specimens, are not overly difficult. I can't say much about their longevity but would estimate they can live at least as long as Grammas.

I keep some of my Marine Bettas in 40-gallon tanks and they don't seem to mind it. Keep in mind that Marine Bettas will mainly stand at the entrance of their cave while waiting for food. They rarely swim around much, usually only when the male is pursuing the female for spawning. So smaller tanks actually work for them, especially if you start with small specimens as you should. Also, keep in mind that about a third of a Marine Betta's length is made op by its tail fin.
73 gallon is definitely sufficient for a pair. My tank in that video is only 90 gallon (40x28x24).

 

[Zionas]

If you can sex the pistol shrimp (fairly easy with the large Tiger shrimp, quite difficult with the smaller Candy canes) you can get two. Of the Candy canes you can keep several of the same sex in a tank of your size and therefore just get a larger number and hope there is at least one male and one female in the mix to pair up. It's how I do it these days.
If you want to be sure that the gobies pair up I would suggest starting with just one shrimp (or a pair if you can get one) and add more shrimp later in the hope to ge a pair of them as well (the behavior of a goby pair with a shrimp pair is extremely interesting).
All that said, yellow gobies are best paired with the larger Tiger Pistol Shrimps so pairing or at least sexing of the one you add should be done before you add it.

Wild Assessors, if you can get healthy specimens, are not overly difficult. I can't say much about their longevity but would estimate they can live at least as long as Grammas.

I keep some of my Marine Bettas in 40-gallon tanks and they don't seem to mind it. Keep in mind that Marine Bettas will mainly stand at the entrance of their cave while waiting for food. They rarely swim around much, usually only when the male is pursuing the female for spawning. So smaller tanks actually work for them, especially if you start with small specimens as you should. Also, keep in mind that about a third of a Marine Betta's length is made op by its tail fin.
73 gallon is definitely sufficient for a pair. My tank in that video is only 90 gallon (40x28x24).

I see. That's great info. For the Yellow Watchman Gobies, would it be OK to have two males in the same tank if introduced at the same time? (Even if they don't pair up will they kill each other?)


Does one have to be bigger than the other or can they both be the same size?



I'm even looking at some peaceful Damsels that could get along with my Clowns. Basslet, Wrasse, Yellow Watchman or a Dwarf Angelfish. I'm thinking of either getting a single one or a pair.

-Azure Damselfish

-Talbot's Damselfish

-Rolland's Damselfish

-Starckii's Damselfish

-Springer's Damselfish

 

[ThRoewer]

I see. That's great info. For the Yellow Watchman Gobies, would it be OK to have two males in the same tank if introduced at the same time? (Even if they don't pair up will they kill each other?)


Does one have to be bigger than the other or can they both be the same size?



I'm even looking at some peaceful Damsels that could get along with my Clowns. Basslet, Wrasse, Yellow Watchman or a Dwarf Angelfish. I'm thinking of either getting a single one or a pair.

-Azure Damselfish

-Talbot's Damselfish

-Rolland's Damselfish

-Starckii's Damselfish

-Springer's Damselfish

I didn't try it with yellow gobies, but with another closely related species. Lost one of a pair, added another of same size. At first there was a little shuffling but within a few weeks they had paired up and spawned.
Two males or two females, it doesn't matter - you will end up with a pair. There was actually quite a bit of research done on this so it's backed up by science.

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[Zionas]

What happens if they spawn? I am worried I won't have the resources to take care of them. Though it's reassuring I can keep a pair of them. How did you lose yours?