Fish Health

[Paul B]

I just felt like rambling:

There are so many problems or concerns in this hobby about fish diseases. I really don't know why so many people have problems with this but I have a hunch.
Our fish in the sea never really die of old age. A fish, unfortunately, is an animal that usually ends it's life as supper for some other animal, being either another fish, seal, bird or humans. Even a fearsome great white shark will eventually grow so old and slow that it can no longer catch sea lions and it will starve to be eaten by other less fearsome animals.
But in a captive envirnment fish can live for years or decades. And they should. Fish have evolved a fairly elaborate immune system because they have been here for millions of years longer than us, well most of us. The fact that live in a watery envirnment demands that their immune system function well because the sea is host to all the chemicals, minerals bacteria and viruses on earth. The water is actually an extension of the fishes circulatory system so whatever is in the water, is also in the fish.
We humans have it much easier because we only need to inhale air and not everything else on earth.
This immune system works almost flawlessly but only if the fish is in perfect health. Through my observations it seems that their immune system is severly compromised by a lack of certain things in their diet along with stress.
We can't do much about the stress of captivity short of releasing the fish to the wild but we can do much about their diet.
Fish IMO should almost never get sick. If we have a town of 100 people and a human lifespan is about 80 years then most people should live about 80 years, some 60 some 100 but on average.
If out of those 100 people absolutely none of them reach 30 years old and 10% of the rest of them come down with something, you may not want to live in that town.
Fish want to live and if they get sick it is usually our fault.
Keeping the immune system of a fish healthy is paramount to keeping the animal disease free. Even paracite free although I don't know exactly how they become immune to paracites but I know they do.
My tank is no better than anyone elses but I have not lost a fish to a disease in decades. Why is that?
I doubt it is my UG filter, people just laugh at that. I don't think it has to do with my ozone although that could help. I don't change nearly as much water as most people. I get the fish from many different sources.
It has to be either the bacteria I add from the sea, but I don't see how that would help. Or the food.
I am betting on food. I could be wrong because I am not the God of fish and not an expert. By the way, there are no experts because this is a hobby. No one has a degree in hobbies although some people think they do.
I am only going by my own observations here and my 40 years of hanging out underwater.
The best food for most fish is fish. Whole fish, guts liver bones, scales and all.
I myself don't usually feed whole fish, i wish I could but I do feed live whole worms, whole fish eggs and whole clams after I freeze them. (worms are full of oil)
If you do much diving you will see millions of tiny fish fry all over the place near the bottom, this makes up a large part of a fishes diet. Not flakes, pellets or freeze dried anything.
I believe it is the guts of the prey fish that keeps the immune system functioning properly. Specifically the liver which is mostly oil.
A 100lb shark is almost 20lbs oil. Fish need this oil to maintain bouyancy and to produce eggs.
Only the healthiest fish can spawn because making babies is a great challenge for a fish. It not only needs nourishment to keep itself alive but it needs a huge amount of extra nutrients to produce fry which at that point are mostly oil.
If a fish is spawning or making spawning jestures it is in excellent health. Fish in excellent health have excellent immune systems.
Fish with excellent immune systems do not get sick.
Again, this is only my theory and this entire hobby is based on mostly theory.
Have a great day.

 

[GlassReef]

Well, I wouldn't exactly call that rambling.

I agree completely... it has also been my experience that in a (reasonably) well cared for aquarium, where the fish are offered a varied and sufficiently nutritious diet, they will very rarely succumb to disease. That assumes they have survived a acclimation period and weren't (as we so often see) already diseased when purchased.

 

[Paul B]

Tom thanks, the only thing I would like to add is that a fish does not need a varire diet as we do. A fish needs what it is supposed to eat and is why many fish starve to death in an aquarium. I have spent some time in the sea whatching fish and I have found that many types of fish only eat one or two things. I watched moorish Idols in the South Pacific and have only seen them eat a type of sponge that is lime green, copper band butterflies and long nose butterflies pull tiny worms out of crevaces, mandarins only eat very tiny living food and seahorses eat mostly tiny fish or shrimp.
Most of the other fish will eat almost anything they can find but they do take advantage of the hoards of fish fry near the bottom of the coral heads.
Lionfish eat whole fish as do trumpetfish and not much of anything else, thay don't have to because that is what they were designed to eat.

 

[KingDiamond]

"Even paracite free although I don't know exactly how they become immune to paracites but I know they do."

If that were the case wouldn't parasites become extinct very quickly? The most successful parasites are those that harm there host the least. The stress of keeping a fish in captivity is probably what causes the parasites population to explode.

 

[Paul B]

In the sea fish don't die from paracites. A few paracites probably infect almost every fish in the sea. In a tank the paracites are very confined so there is no place for the fish to go and the paracites multiply on the fish, swim free then multiply again and infect the fish more.

I do not come to my conclusions lightly, it took many years.
I can not explain any other reason why my fish do not get ich. Can you?
I am at a loss, a happy loss but still a loss.
I have not quarantened anything in 3 decades, I add fish from any LFS where I see something I like and here in NY we have dozens of stores with in a few miles from my home. I add fish right from the sea along with NSW, pods, worms, seaweed crabs shrimp and whatever looks interesting.
I can take a fish from an ich infested tank in a store and place it in my tank with no fear that the rest of the fish will become infected. That fish may die but nothing else will.
I have done it dozens of times over almost 40 years in the same tank.
I can only attribute it to the fishes health because I am not a majician or the God of fish.
My tank was not always like this, it used to be an ich magnet. There were times I wanted to throw the entire thing out the window, that was at the start of the hobby in the early seventees. There was no salt water foods available and no live rock, no reef tanks, no internet and no information. The fish were never very healthy and they used to come down with all sorts of things.
When I dive, I don't dive like a tourist in a resort. I have my own boat and equipment so I can just lay on the bottom and water a pair of fish for an hour. See what they eat, how they spend their time, notice if they have any diseases, how they escape predators, how they catch prey, how they spawn.
I also know the life cycle of ich very well. I did say that I do not know how or even if fish become immune to ich, I don't know a lot of things, but I know that for over 35 years none of my fish have died from ich and I would love to know why.
Maybe it is something in NY seawater or the NY mud I add. Maybe the amphipods do something or the reverse UG filter. I really don't know and neither does anyone else but my theory is fish health and I believe fish become healthy in a large part if they are fed a diet of fish oil.
As I said a fish is about 20% liver and that liver is mostly oil.
The foods we usually feed our fish are severly lacking in fish oil because almost all of what we feed are not fish. We feed mysis, brine shrimp, flakes, pellets, angel formula, squid etc, but a fishes normal diet is mostly fish.
Fish that are full of oil. I take the stuff myself and I never had ich :dance:
Remember, this is just my theory, or opinion and is not meant to change anyones thoughts on how you keep your fish. It is just a discusion, nothing more.

 

[GreshamH]

In the sea fish don't die from paracites. A few paracites probably infect almost every fish in the sea. In a tank the paracites are very confined so there is no place for the fish to go and the paracites multiply on the fish, swim free then multiply again and infect the fish more.

Parasite.... Paul, it's spelled parasite

 

[Paul B]

OK, it's spelled parasite

 

[Stuart60611]

Paul:

I do share your view that diet can go a long way to assist fish in avoiding being overtaken by parasites. In this regard, I was wondering if you have any suggestion on some live foods that could be bred in a separate tank and used to feed fish in the display tank. I am in the midwest and have no access to the ocean. Overall, my research has indicated that pretty much all of the live foods are either difficult to breed (such as blackworms, ghost shrimp, etc.) or are not the appropriate dietary profile for marines (such as freshwater fish and the like). Are there other worms or live foods which are easier to breed which are very good from a dietary perspective. The other thing that I like about live food is that, at least in particular with a fowlr, phosphates really become a challenge from feeding so much dead meaty foods. I think live foods would be much better for the system in terms of phosphate additions. What are your thoughts?

 

[sedor]

I was wondering if you have any suggestion on some live foods that could be bred in a separate tank and used to feed fish in the display tank.

The most commonly bred live food is brine shrimp. We all know that adult frozen brine shrimp are very low in nutrients and overall don't serve much of a purpose as far as a healthy food goes. However, baby brine shrimp are much different if they are fed within the first couple days before their yolk sack is gone. There is equipment that can be purchased to raise baby brine shrimp or its easy to build your own without much more than a 2 liter bottle and an air pump. Might be something you'd like to look into.

Paul, I really enjoyed your post. I have been preaching your words for years, although I admit I don't have near the natural experience and knowledge that you do. Thanks for sharing with us

 

[Stuart60611]

The most commonly bred live food is brine shrimp. We all know that adult frozen brine shrimp are very low in nutrients and overall don't serve much of a purpose as far as a healthy food goes. However, baby brine shrimp are much different if they are fed within the first couple days before their yolk sack is gone. There is equipment that can be purchased to raise baby brine shrimp or its easy to build your own without much more than a 2 liter bottle and an air pump. Might be something you'd like to look into.

Completely agree. However, baby brine shrimp are of little value when dealing with larger fowlr type fish. You would have to breed a whole lot of them, and even then, probably not too useful in this context.

 

[Paul B]

I use mostly live blackworms to keep my fish in breeding condition but I don't keep them in a refrigerator like is suggested. I keep them in very shallow moving water and they life forever and even multiply. Unfortunately they don't multiply fast enough for my needs and I have to buy them every week.
I built this worm keeper but it is small. If I made it much larger I would have an unlimited supply of worms.
Earth worms are also full of oil but I can't swear it is the same oil. I think it is but I have no proof.
I also hatch live brine shrimp every day in a homemade hatchery that seperates the shells. I need them for the pipefish, corals and clown gobies.
Once or twice a week I take some sinking pellets and drop some fish oil on them that I buy in capsules, I even take them myself.
If you feed fish , clams, squid etc, you ned to use the entire animal not just the parts that we eat. We don't eat guts, at least I don't but thats where the real nutrition is. The fillets are a desert when it comes to nutrition.
Fish need the oil in the liver and the calcium in the bones along with the contents of the stomach.
Fish don't care that we can't provide the proper foods, but they do suffer for it.
You don't find fish guts and oil in commercially prepared foods because these things go bad very fast.

 

[Stuart60611]

Paul:

Ya, from what I read black worms are the best but I have heard that they are not easy to breed in quanity and smell. However, it is interesting you mention earthworms b/c they from what I understand breed lin large numbers in relatively small quarters and are fairly easy to maintain. Do you know of others that feed these regularly to marine fish? Could be a possibility.

 

[KingDiamond]

What kind of fish do you have in your tank Paul?

 

[Paul B]

My blackworms don't have any smell at all, That happens if you keep them in the refrigerator because that way, a few die every day. I never find a dead worm in my worm keeper.

King Diamond I have about 15 fish, there are a pair of fire clowns, (one of which is over 17) a hippo tang, a breeding pair of blue stripped pipefish, two pairs of breeding watchman gobies, a mandarin
3 green chromis, rainsford gobi and a pair of breeding hermit crabs which are about 12 years old.
There are also various small gobies, crabs, snails and shrimp.

 

[Agu]

Obviously environment is the first issue, if you have an unhealthy environment you'll have sick fish. An unhealthy environment is everything from inappropriate stocking to bad water quality.We can control those issues and it's not that difficult if you have the knowledge and are conscientious about husbandry. Sadly one or the other (or both) are lacking too many times.

I'm a firm believer in a healthy diet to the point of making my own fish food. From my reading and experience, what we consider waste is an essential part of the carnivorous/omnivorous fish's diet. Since whole fish that haven't been gutted are rarely available I use clams and mussels in my food to provide those internal organs. I also add nori/sushi wrap to trick my fish into eating their vegetables.

 

[Almenmarine]

You made alot of great points. However, i believe there are foods we can feed our fish to make them healthier. Us, as humans for example, (Earlier days) Didn't have all the nutrition we could. We ate meat, and fruits, and not much in between. There were vitamins few and far between when we didn't have access to all the trading and such. Millions, if not billions is dropped into science research on ways to fight disease and increase our lifespan. As time went on, We started to figure out Vitamins make us healthier, and function more properly, thus, practically aging slower. What i'm trying to say is that fish don't have much of a choice on their food source in the wild. They can graze algae, or sadly do as you stated, go along with the food chain. They don't have a choice. I doubt that scales are 100% good for the fish, but they cannot simply remove these. We can feed our fish more vitamins, which most of us do. I believe this makes our fish far more healthy, and live a much better life. They will live longer, and in those days, function more effiecently, and also look more stunning

-christian

 

[Almenmarine]

Also paul, please don't think i'm doubting you. Just trying to debate a little bit. I did have a question however. What do you feed your fish, and do you use fish oil supplement in your mix. If you use fish or whatever else contains fish only, then this is a self explainitory question!

 

[Paul B]

Almenmarine, please doubt me all you want. As I said, I am not the God of fish and this is just my opinions from my observations mostly from diving. I could be totally wrong.
I feed my fish live black worms almost every day with either fresh clam, fish eggs, mysis, shrimp, and in the summer I collect tiny fish and grass shrimp in the sea.
I also have some commercially available frozen plankton from a LFS.
About once a week I add fish oil to either flakes or soak pellets in the oil.
My burrfish gets live worms and live crabs that I collect. If I don't have crabs he gets clams, mussels or shrimp.
The live worms provide the oil every day and I feel it is probably the best "available" food there is next to whole tiny fish which are not usually available.

 

[Paul B]

I doubt that scales are 100% good for the fish,

I am not sure but they probably supply roughage as plant fiber provides that to us. Fish were built to eat fish and scales are a part of fish so I am sure they evolved to use them along with the bones. There are a lot of bones in a whole fish and that is where fish obtain calcium from.
We humans take vitamins because much of our diet now is not a normal human diet.
If we reverted to hunter gatherers again, we would probably not need vitamins as we evolved to eat what is available freely. Ancient man did not eat much Hostess Twinkees, Cocoa Puffs, Coca Cola, SPAM, fuzili, Cheese in a can, hot dogs, M&Ms etc.
They ate mostly fruits, roots and a little meat and fish if they could get it. That food was un processed and they probably ate the entire animal, guts and all (owwweee)

 

[GreshamH]

OK, it's spelled parasite

:lol: right back at yah :love1: