Fish scratching like crazy after 16 days of copper- input needed please
- Thread starter hottuna
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wooden_reefer
New member
What is a bare hospital tank? Does it have nitrification filter? How are you ridding the water of ammonia?
I never use chelated copper again. I always use straight Cu I prepared myself from Copper sulfate hydrate.
I had one very bad experience with CuSafe decades ago. the strength seemed to vary. I wonder if the quality of chelated Cu has improved over the decades, but I never use it again. No need.
I never use chelated copper again. I always use straight Cu I prepared myself from Copper sulfate hydrate.
I had one very bad experience with CuSafe decades ago. the strength seemed to vary. I wonder if the quality of chelated Cu has improved over the decades, but I never use it again. No need.
Gwynhidwy
Meat Popsicle
FWIW, because copper is not very stable in saltwater its usually a good idea to check levels twice a day. In my experience fish scratch more than normal at low pH's, but your pH isn't terribly low so as long as its stable I wouldn't expect that to be the problem.
How long have the fish been scratching? Have you seen any other signs of disease besides the scratching (labored breathing, lethargy, faded color, lack of appetite, etc)? Did the fish have white spots prior to beginning treatment or are you treating based on the scratching or prophylactically? Are the fish eating? What sort of filtration are you running? Any chemical media being used?
I would suggest that you might want to look into flukes as a possible cause as well.
How long have the fish been scratching? Have you seen any other signs of disease besides the scratching (labored breathing, lethargy, faded color, lack of appetite, etc)? Did the fish have white spots prior to beginning treatment or are you treating based on the scratching or prophylactically? Are the fish eating? What sort of filtration are you running? Any chemical media being used?
I would suggest that you might want to look into flukes as a possible cause as well.
LargeAngels
Premium Member
Cupramine is pretty stable if you don't have any calcerous material or a protein skimmer. Like Gwynhidwy stated I would also look into flukes. I've found that many flukes are not affected by copper. Try a FW dip and see if anything falls off. I treat all my fish with Prazipro for flukes. Cupramine and Prazipro can be mixed.
wooden_reefer
New member
If you have placed fish in any copper of prescribed strength for 16 days, your fish are not going to die from ich any time soon, even if there is no eradication yet.
Once in c. 1980, I used CuSafe at even a little less than prescribed strength , the large angel at once turned sideway and laid flat. I at once took it out. Since then I had not used chelated copper. I suspect that the cheleting agent was at fault. The angel totally recovered and lived for many years. The bottle of CuSafe was also a little old, granted.
Unless you change water often, your tank is going to have ammonia, with many fish.
It is safer to lower the dose of the copper first to observe. You have time. Are there discoloration patches on the fish? This is generally another sign of poisoning. Gill fuke yes, also possible.
CuSafe did not precipitate even with calcareous material, as i remember. That was its claim of virtue, but also vice as overdose is more likely. With straight Cu, overdose is brief. I generally don't sweat Cu overdose for straight Cu. Even 0.5 ppm for a few hours is frequently not critical.
Practically speaking, you cannot eradicate ich without nitrification in a QT. Will you really change water daily for 8 weeks? Chances are you will tire out first.
Imagine someone who buy and QT fish one at a time and also do not have nitrification in QT, what is the prescription then. Water change daily for 40 weeks for five fish? This is the extreme consideration.
So you always cycle very well the medium intended for QT. For me, I get all the fish to QT at once for 8 or more weeks, once.
Once in c. 1980, I used CuSafe at even a little less than prescribed strength , the large angel at once turned sideway and laid flat. I at once took it out. Since then I had not used chelated copper. I suspect that the cheleting agent was at fault. The angel totally recovered and lived for many years. The bottle of CuSafe was also a little old, granted.
Unless you change water often, your tank is going to have ammonia, with many fish.
It is safer to lower the dose of the copper first to observe. You have time. Are there discoloration patches on the fish? This is generally another sign of poisoning. Gill fuke yes, also possible.
CuSafe did not precipitate even with calcareous material, as i remember. That was its claim of virtue, but also vice as overdose is more likely. With straight Cu, overdose is brief. I generally don't sweat Cu overdose for straight Cu. Even 0.5 ppm for a few hours is frequently not critical.
Practically speaking, you cannot eradicate ich without nitrification in a QT. Will you really change water daily for 8 weeks? Chances are you will tire out first.
Imagine someone who buy and QT fish one at a time and also do not have nitrification in QT, what is the prescription then. Water change daily for 40 weeks for five fish? This is the extreme consideration.
So you always cycle very well the medium intended for QT. For me, I get all the fish to QT at once for 8 or more weeks, once.
LargeAngels
Premium Member
If his ammonia is 0 after 16 days I think his bio filter is keeping up with the bio load.
wooden_reefer
New member
But he said "bare" tank.
May be he is changing water frequently enough and his test kit is not sensitive to low range NH3.
LargeAngels
Premium Member
I think "bare" meant no rock or sand.
wooden_reefer
New member
Do you have an accurate postal scale at work? If you have a decent scale, mixing straight Cu is not hard. The somewhat inaccuracy of a decent scale can be compensated by weighing, say, 10 times what you need, and then dumping 90 % by volume of the solution. Accurate enough after that.
You can check the accuracy of any decent scale. Fill a plastic bag with known volume of water. The weight of the water can be accurately determined by its volume. That is what a "fluid ounce" is: the volume taken up by one ounce of water; the weight of the plastic bag negliglable. You can correlate then.
I can give you a cook book procedure, but it is better than you know what molecular weight and a gram-mole are. A gram-mole is the molecular weight worth of a substance in number of grams.
You should also be able to convert from ounce to grams, since most scales in the US, regretably, are still in British unit ounce.
Is cu very toxic and great accuracy needed? It depends on what kind of a person you are. I have studied analytical chem at college, even entry basic level. Not great accuracy is needed according to me. If a person doses Cu like ketcup, there may be a problem.
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wooden_reefer
New member
BTW, the greatest danger of CU overdose for me would be to forget about evaporation of Cu stock solution.
After the last use of Cu in QT, always draw a line on the bottle and date it. If next time, after a year, I check the level is still the same, I would use it. If not I would add pure water back to level.
A couple of times I had forgetable to date the line and had no faith and had to make another stock. Otherwise, one stock solution should last a lifetime, of the aquarist that is.
After the last use of Cu in QT, always draw a line on the bottle and date it. If next time, after a year, I check the level is still the same, I would use it. If not I would add pure water back to level.
A couple of times I had forgetable to date the line and had no faith and had to make another stock. Otherwise, one stock solution should last a lifetime, of the aquarist that is.
Large angels is correct : bare means no rock or sand...biowheels are completely cycled .ammonia is not an issue..
the fish seem to be rubbing intensely along the gills on one or two of them...more along the body on another..
I dont have prazi pro but have straight praziquantel powder from natl fish pharm...the last time I mixed IT with cupramine my fish almost did backflips in the tank...
so my guess now is to wait until this saturday 21 days ...then do a large water change and then start praziquantel treatment by itself...how does that sound ?????
also note I do see outward signs of disease on one of the tangs..looks like white nodules beneath the skin (pimples) not ich size either...and a round horeshoe like opaque/white small area that looks like a raised scale in appearance....
dont know if this helps any with a diagnosis...
but I'm leaning towards flukes or parasitic worms of some type...and praziquantel cant hurt to try...after all the fish are still eating very good...
what do all you guys think ????
P.S. all the input so far has been helpful...thanks to all who posted ...
the fish seem to be rubbing intensely along the gills on one or two of them...more along the body on another..
I dont have prazi pro but have straight praziquantel powder from natl fish pharm...the last time I mixed IT with cupramine my fish almost did backflips in the tank...
so my guess now is to wait until this saturday 21 days ...then do a large water change and then start praziquantel treatment by itself...how does that sound ?????
also note I do see outward signs of disease on one of the tangs..looks like white nodules beneath the skin (pimples) not ich size either...and a round horeshoe like opaque/white small area that looks like a raised scale in appearance....
dont know if this helps any with a diagnosis...
but I'm leaning towards flukes or parasitic worms of some type...and praziquantel cant hurt to try...after all the fish are still eating very good...
what do all you guys think ????
P.S. all the input so far has been helpful...thanks to all who posted ...
LargeAngels
Premium Member
I've only mixed Prazipro with Cupramine and if you've had a bad experience before then don't mix straight praziquantel with Cupramine. I would do a FW dip right away and see if flukes fall off.
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Gwynhidwy
Meat Popsicle
I think your plan sounds good. I'm surprised that you had problems mixing those two medications, but since you have and are so close to the end of your Cupramine regimen, I agree with LargeAngels that it might be best to wait.
Have you considered lymphocystis as the cause of the nodules on the tang?
Have you considered lymphocystis as the cause of the nodules on the tang?
