Fluke and/or ich/brook? Cupramine and Prazi - which one first?

[jonwright]

So I have 2 clownfish that have started to have symptoms rather at the same time.

1. Breathing heavily and hanging out in calm water. Appetite OK and ventures out for meandering. been doing this for 2-3 days now.

2. Grayish spat on fin. Last week had greyish spot on back with white dot on leading edge - went away after 2 days. Now has another grey-ish off-white spot on his tail fin.

I'm thinking that between flukes and possibly ich/velvet cupramine is the best broad spectrum treatment for both of these guys.

Both have the "stringy poop" thing but I also feed mysis heavily - I've read where folks suspect that's what's up. My Flame Angel is fine and doesn't have the stringy poop and is a longer resident eating mysis than the clowns.

I'm thinking of knocking this out with Cupramine in the QT as that will get flukes, too, if #1 has them in his gills and seems to be the best bet at the moment.

I don't want to get too heavily handed, but I also have some formalin-malachite green.

I was thinking of putting both of these guys (with no fresh water or formalin/malchite dip) in QT to limit stress and dose Cupramine. My thought at the moment (since their appetite is good and aren't in apparent immediate danger) is to limit stress as to not allow them to get any weaker than necessary. They are pretty small guys - about 1.25" or so.

REading this forum is about like going to WebMD - diagnosing my low grade fever and cough WebMD convinces me I have Ebola.

Am I missing anything?

Also seems folks are OK with doing Prazi with the Cupramine - I'm thinking of waiting until after the Cu treatment to add the complexity of Prazi. Thoughts?

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Copper will not eradicate flukes. Are there any white spots on either of the fish?

 

[jonwright]

Incorrect

Incorrect

Copper will not eradicate flukes. Are there any white spots on either of the fish?

No. Getting flukes is why I'd start with Cupramine, exactly why:
==========
Q: Can you tell me if Cupramine™ is effective against gill fluke?

A: Yes, Cupramine™ effectively eradicates ectoparasite of both freshwater and marine fish. Please be sure to follow all directions on the product, make sure that you do not mix with any other medications and turn off your UV sterilizer. Please let me know if you have any further questions.

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine.html#faq6

No spots, that would make it easy. I know that Snorvich and others have written that you don't necessarily see the spots.

 

[ReeFreak1]

I had success eradicating Flukes on a powder blue tang using fresh water dips for 10Min every other day for a total of 5 dips. Easy and worked like a champ.

 

[jonwright]

the more I read about the tank transfer method the more I like it. However, this would only work for confirmed cases of ich. Since I'm on almost day 4 of this and the fish isn't looking much worse (and is still eating) I'm about to settle on a shotgun approach with formalin/methaline bath freshwater bath and cupramine.

I'm buoyed by SeaChem saying that it won't harm the nitrifying bacteria. I may just get paranoid and prazipro my display tank to keep my angel fish from getting the flukes. I'm worried about my goby (It'd be hell catching him). I really like the little fan worms but I'm about to talk myself into allowing the sacrifice of the little guys.

 

[ReeFreak1]

the more I read about the tank transfer method the more I like it. However, this would only work for confirmed cases of ich. Since I'm on almost day 4 of this and the fish isn't looking much worse (and is still eating) I'm about to settle on a shotgun approach with formalin/methaline bath freshwater bath and cupramine.

I'm buoyed by SeaChem saying that it won't harm the nitrifying bacteria. I may just get paranoid and prazipro my display tank to keep my angel fish from getting the flukes. I'm worried about my goby (It'd be hell catching him). I really like the little fan worms but I'm about to talk myself into allowing the sacrifice of the little guys.

I never used prazi even though I read a lot of good things about it. I just have a concern when using in the DT. Prazi will kill all kinds of worms in the tank including Flukes. Every tank has a large number of these worms naturally inside the sand bed, sump, live rock, and filters. If all these worms die at the same time, isn't this going to cause an Ammonia spike??? I really like to know!

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Yes it could cause an ammonia spike. I've never dosed the main with Prazi...some have and have had success. I would rather catch the fish, put in a QT and dose Prazi. Leave the main fallow for 3 weeks. Actually I would not want to do any of that which is why I quarantine everything
Why would you do a formalin FW bath in conjunction with copper? That is way too much for a fish to survive.
Go back to the basics. To confirm flukes do a FW dip (no formalin). If flukes are in the dip dose with Prazi. Formalin is a last resort for flukes as it is extremely toxic to you and the fish. If no flukes then proceed with the treatment of your choice.

 

[jonwright]

Yup - you are right

Yup - you are right

Copper with formalin would be rough on the little guys - good advice, thank you. I'm about to convince myself that it's Brook, so formalin bath with QT. Snorvich is convinced that you can put a low level of formalin in the QT along with the baths for brook treatment - but I suppose you just have to change the water a lot to control ammonia if that's how you are going to do it.

I'd rather not put formalin in the QT water if doing baths will work. Seems folks have differing opinion on that as I've read - something RF doesn't lack.

I'm rather confident that the work die off won't cause a tremendous ammonia spike, but I really don't want to dose the DT nonetheless. That would be if the goby had problems (I really anticipate having a tough time catching him). I have some little filter worms and was thinking of the bristle worms etc. IF flukes is what's in the tank that I don't want to lose...

 

[Newsmyrna80]

IME Quick Cure dips (30-40 min) every other day for a total of 5 dips and into a clean holding tank cured brook. Be sure to have whatever water they are going into after the dip fully aerated.
If the goby was exposed you could either prophylactically treat him or put into a QT and observe. Either way the main will need to be fallow.

 

[jonwright]

formalin in sea water or fresh water? Seems fresh water with formalin might be tougher on the fish.

 

[Newsmyrna80]

Saltwater. Just use the water he's already in. Add formalin and aerate for at least 30 minutes, longer is better.

 

[fairladyZ]

will 5 formalin dips take care of ich and velvet aswell? I'm not sure if i have brook or ich or velvet and need to treat my fish asap but not sure what to do.

 

[jonwright]

After attempting formalin dips I'd go with a quinine treatment as that seems to be good for almost all of the common parasites and keeps you from having to guess if it's brook (only formalin) or if it something else that will respond to "gentler" treatment (copper). Doesn't appear to affect biological filtration so on a number of accounts it's way better than what folks typically do.

I settled on formalin since I wasn't really sure what they had and didn't know about quinine compounds. Day 2 of treatment and both clowns are dead right after the formalin bath. I'm sure the formalin killed them. They seemed a bit more active after the first treatment, breathing was still heavy for both but a grey/white patch that appeared on one's tail disappeared. Right now 30 min after treatment #2 they are on the bottom of the tank breathing extremely heavily.

Seems when I try to 'help' my fish I finish them off. I'm extremely disappointed right about now.

If they had a bacterial gill infestation (which as of NOW I suspect) it makes sense the formalin wasn't necessary. It's so tough to figure out, however.

 

[ReeFreak1]

After attempting formalin dips I'd go with a quinine treatment as that seems to be good for almost all of the common parasites and keeps you from having to guess if it's brook (only formalin) or if it something else that will respond to "gentler" treatment (copper). Doesn't appear to affect biological filtration so on a number of accounts it's way better than what folks typically do.

I settled on formalin since I wasn't really sure what they had and didn't know about quinine compounds. Day 2 of treatment and both clowns are dead right after the formalin bath. I'm sure the formalin killed them. They seemed a bit more active after the first treatment, breathing was still heavy for both but a grey/white patch that appeared on one's tail disappeared. Right now 30 min after treatment #2 they are on the bottom of the tank breathing extremely heavily.

Seems when I try to 'help' my fish I finish them off. I'm extremely disappointed right about now.

If they had a bacterial gill infestation (which as of NOW I suspect) it makes sense the formalin wasn't necessary. It's so tough to figure out, however.

So sorry about your loss! It remains a mystery.

 

[jonwright]

Yeah, I see other folks that loose fish during/after treatment. It seems that common experience is "if the fish wouldn't survive treatment it was a goner anyway." So, that lead to the following conclusion:

If you don't want to lose critters you should treat early and often.

Which is directly at odds with: don't treat a fish unless you know it needs to be treated. And...patience.

So if fish don't show symptoms (and if they do it's apparently too late depending upon the disease) they are carrying disease and thus right when something pops up that stresses them out they get sick.

Sooooooo...guess really the thing is, even though you know a fish might harbor a disease (contamination?) the best thing is to keep his immune system up.

So then........profalactic treatments are stressful, unnecessary, and will then bring on disease in an already stressed out fish.

So thus, it seems then that put the booger in QT with no dips etc and check him out. if he has symptoms you'll be able to start treating at that point in time (presumably with FW dip with perhaps methalyline blue). I'm sure there are varying opinons on this.

I mean, if you are going to stress a fish out with a dip - why not just nuke anything that might be on him with formalin? If he's not going to survive QT and a dip might as well get it over with if he's already comprimised.

I just watched 2 of my clowns suffer for a while and it's really heart breaking (again).

 

[ReeFreak1]

Yeah, I see other folks that loose fish during/after treatment. It seems that common experience is "if the fish wouldn't survive treatment it was a goner anyway." So, that lead to the following conclusion:

If you don't want to lose critters you should treat early and often.

Which is directly at odds with: don't treat a fish unless you know it needs to be treated. And...patience.

So if fish don't show symptoms (and if they do it's apparently too late depending upon the disease) they are carrying disease and thus right when something pops up that stresses them out they get sick.

Sooooooo...guess really the thing is, even though you know a fish might harbor a disease (contamination?) the best thing is to keep his immune system up.

So then........profalactic treatments are stressful, unnecessary, and will then bring on disease in an already stressed out fish.

So thus, it seems then that put the booger in QT with no dips etc and check him out. if he has symptoms you'll be able to start treating at that point in time (presumably with FW dip with perhaps methalyline blue). I'm sure there are varying opinons on this.

I mean, if you are going to stress a fish out with a dip - why not just nuke anything that might be on him with formalin? If he's not going to survive QT and a dip might as well get it over with if he's already comprimised.

I just watched 2 of my clowns suffer for a while and it's really heart breaking (again).

Good conclusion although it came out with extreme sadness. I know many folks suggest formalin, but in my humble experience, it is a like playing roulette and there are better ways out there.