For those who dose Kalkwasser

Most people replace all evaporate water with slow dosed limewater, and I see no reason for you to not do that, unless you find that delivers more alkalinity than the tank needs. :)

That's what I do. I use the 2tsp per gallon in my ATO and it maintains my levels at
calcium 425
Alk 10
Ph 7.9-8.1

I go though about a gallon a kalk water a day. I supplement mag when needed.
 
Adam read real science and not aquarium comics.

Hadet!

What part of his response was not true. We love healthy debates in the Chemistry forum but you have not supported your views at all, and they happen to be at odds with results experienced by many aquarists, including myself.

You resurrected a thread, added a controversial viewpoint, then responded to your critics by making a derogatory comment.

In an established, well lit stony coral reef kalkwasser is NOT SUFFICIENT TO MAINTAIN CALCIUM AND ALKALINITY.

There is NO way to make a blanket statement such as this.

If one were to use kalk alone and increase evaporation in attempt to increase the amount of calcium and carbonate that will enter the system then the pH increase would likely limit its input.

The PH spike is dictated by the speed at which the kalk is dosed, not the absolute amount dosed. The evaporation rate only limits the amount that can be added, in total over a day, without affecting your salinity.

In a normal super saturated, balanced system with elevated calcium and alkalinity in the locality where kalkwasser enters the system CO2 in the water immediately reacts with the hydroxide ions and the LOCAL high pH forces the now beyond super saturated calcium and carbonate ions to precipitate. It is THIS purer from of calcium carbonate that does most of the good work that kalkwasser is capable of (this relativley pure calcium carbonate adsorbs phosphates and organics), amongst its other good effects are stabilising of the pH by CO2 sequestering and adding SMALL amounts of calcium and carbonate in a perfectly balanced way that may help basic and / or poorly lit systems.

There is surely some precipitation no matter how slow the kalk is dripped but to imply that most of the kalk immediately precipitates is simply wrong. If added too quickly it can absolutely precipitate without adding any meaningful calcium and alkalinity. I don't understand what you mean by beyond super-saturated. Precipitation events happen because the levels of calcium and alkalinity rise to a level where magnesium, and phosphate to some degree, cannot slow the formation of calcium carbonate enough to stop it. It is not due the elevated levels themselves but by the relationship between these levels and magnesium. I agree that this precipitate will quickly begin binding with substances in the water and it may be a valuable side effect of kalk.


Here is a good aquarium comic for you. No worries no real science.

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
 
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Adam read real science and not aquarium comics.

Hadet!

Damn, I guess that honors degree in Biochemistry, Goldwater Scholarship, 8 years of research experience at Cornell University, Harvard Medical School, Binghamton University, and Upstate Medical University, multiple cited scientific publications, and acceptance into both US medical and graduate school were all for naught! All this time I thought I understood REAL science, thank you for helping to correct my misguided self image! :beer:

For real though, it's probably misguided to even respond to this message. Your comment is entirely inflammatory and not productive at all. If you disagree with my opinion, then by all means state why your viewpoint is correct and do so strongly backed with the best evidence you can provide. That's how we stop misinformation from being spread and improve our knowledge base. But if you are going to reduce your discussion to unfounded personal attacks, please do so elsewhere.
 
Lets look at a drop of saturated kalcium hydroxide solution, entering an environment that is suitable for the culture and growth of the more "demanding" corals.

Ok as it hits that water there will be a point where the super saturation is pushed to the a point where calcium carbonate whether it be from the aquarium or new from the hydroxide solution from solution. The evidence of this can be seen in the sump of a system that runs a reactor and kalkwasser for example.... brown crust and sediment all over.

Systems that run a lower supersaturation level may dissolve more hydroxide but one must ask if calcerous growth is then limited by kh levels?

Im going to find the journal I discovered on the use of kalk to clean up after aquaculture (mainly wrt po4 adsorption)

Overall what i am trying to say is that water that is optimised for stoney growth wrt pH, kh and ca will cause much calcium hydroxide to precipitate as calcium carbonate but this is exactly what an aquarist wants (although so few realise) as the relatively pure calcium carbonate is the best cleanup sponge in the business!

What you take on that?
 
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I will bow out as I obviously don't have the prerequisites required to have a discussion with you. It doesn't change the fact that you are extrapolating somewhat valid points well beyond the realm of practical application.

Good Day!
 
Aaroz, Your statements are just wrong and ill informed.


Precipitated calcium carbonate is not a necessary outcome when using fully saturated limewater ; nor is it a helpful one ; nor does it occur in the tank with kalkwasser at max saturation that is settled before dosing.

Clear fully saturated kalkwasser ( limewater)won't suddenly precipitate as it dilutes further in the larger volume of tank water? Why wuld that happen? That argument is nonsensical.

No one keeps a living tank at max calcium carbonate saturation, that would carry a pH of 12.4 with it and kill everything. Some do experience some precipitation near pumps and other localized heat sources which lower the max saturation level in their immediate locale but even that can be prevented by careful selection of the dosing site in areas of high flow away from heat sources to insure rapid dispersal . Maintaining magnesium levels helps too.. I get very little of any precipitant even on heaters.
I agree with your comedic comment about idiots , though it's not funny and says more about you than whoever the target is . So, I'll top arguing with you now. You really aren't saying much though ; using a lot of words to do it . What you do you do offer makes little sense.
 
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Tom... We all run our tanks at supersaturated levels for calcium carbonate. It is only the high magnesium that is keeping us from seeing a snowstorm. You can also saturate calcium carbonate at any pH, the level of saturation will change with pH. You may have confused saturated CaCO3 with saturation for Ca(OH)2. The latter is the one that will always have a high pH, thanks to the fact that it is a hydroxide.

All that said, the precipitation on adding saturated calcium hydroxide will depend on the calcium and alkalinity levels in the tank. The higher they are then the more likely you'll see a little precip.
 
Aaroz

A point I think needs to be made here is that precipitation, like any other process, is one that takes time (a "kinetic" process if you will). Doesn't have to be a lot of time, but time nonetheless. When a drop of fully saturated calcium hydroxide hits the water, on a microscale there is a HUGE pH spike in the local area, this much is true, and if allowed to sit stagnant without diffusion or active flow would cause precipitation. However, in an aquarium both diffusion and active flow happen. We dose kalkwasser into a high flow area very slowly so the local increase in pH can calcium and alkalinity is dispersed very rapidly -- so fast in fact as to minimize the amount of precipitation that occurs. This is not to say it doesn't happen at all -- it does, it's just not the dominant process when done correctly. Such competing kinetics processes are very common and utilized in the laboratory all the time (e.g. protein refolding by rapid dilution, slow dilution of acids etc.), the key is making sure that the process you want to happen (in this case dilution of the calcium hydroxide) happens faster than the undesirable process (in this case precipitation).

Now, when using calcium hydroxide as a water TREATMENT, it is an entirely different story. I that case, you WANT precipitation to happen, so you add it relatively quickly so that precipitation becomes the dominant process. It's the other side of the competing kinetics problem -- you add it FASTER than the system can dilute it. See the difference?

Now that the science is done, please hear this. There are lots of people on the chemistry forums with different backgrounds -- some people have more expertise than others, but all are welcome and can have valuable contributions to the conversation. Whether their background be formal chemistry education, many years experience in reef aquaria, or whatever else, they are welcome to participate. If you think information being presented is incorrect, please jump in and tell us what you know, even say plainly that certain information is wrong, but take the position of trying to distribute correct information and explain your point of view backed with solid science. Do NOT try and make others feel stupid or less than you.

In just in this little bit of time you've managed to personally insult multiple well respected members of our community, including me by name. And all of a sudden when you found out that I do science for a living that makes me worth your time? You've only been a contributing member here for a very short time, I would suggest a change in attitude.
 
David, yes I know it's supersaturated.. I should have differentiated Ca(OH)2 and Ca CO3. It is a better explanation and makes the point more clearly. Thanks.

Nonetheless, CaCO3 precipitation is not necessary or desireable in a reef sytem even when dosing fully saturated limewater,Ca (OH)2 . The pH rise from the OH and C02 in forming CO3 is manageable with slow dosing over a period of time as CO2 enters the water.
 
Adam very nice post.

Here I sit with only a Master of Science degree in the softer sciences, a 35 year career in Heath Care Administration and over about 9 recent years of hard study and experience in reef chemistry, biology and all things related to reef keeping.
Not sure I should even speak to the George Carlin fan without genuflecting first.

Speaking of whom,anyone who claims to be a fan of Randy Farley's writings should actually read them before taking silly positions.

I could not keep the animals I keep without the help of the RC community, scientists and non scientists . Idiot is not word that applies to any of them, imo.
 
wow..i just cant believe the wealth of information being circulated here. I know this is an old thread but nonetheless just want to say Thank you for your time and efforts and sharing the immense knowledge you all have. Happy Reefing...
 
I have never been able to do that, oddly enough, without my pumps seizing constantly

Ever measure magnesium? Keeping it normal to high can help reduce the precipitation on pumps from high alk and pH. :)

Also, more aeration will limit the pH rise. :)

Well Randy, you are always full of info that i did not know .... been around a while but this little tidbit i will store.

thanks
 
Higher mag levels in the 1450ppm range for me keep precipitation on pumps and heaters very low to non existant while mainitaining alk around 9 dkh via limewater dosing
 
I do both, 2 part and Kalk and my numbers are pretty solid. I have an Avast Kalk reactor with 2 float switches that are connected to my APEX BREAKOUT BOX and I use a 5-gallon RODI storage container. When evaporation occurs and my float drops it kicks on my Kalk reactor then if for some odd reason if the 1st float switch fails and I have a 2nd float switch just in case which will turn off the kalk reactor. Here my current number from TRITON ICP TEST - CAL 420ppm / ALK: 8.5 / MAG: 1470 / PH: 8.1 - 8.2 / Salinity sits right around 1.025-1.026 / Potassium: 400mg/l ... Anybody, keeping any type of corals should get the TRTION ICP TEST done to have some sort of base line to go off of b/c your basic test kits just can't be trusted except I get pretty accurate results with my Hanna Checkers.

TANK INFO:
120Mixed Reef Tank
 
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