Giant Skimmers

[hahnmeister]

Here's the logic behind Bill, and a few other's who use the needlewheel skimmers... they use an air pump to overcome the back-pressure on the needlewheel BTW:

Needlewheels require less wattage to make more bubbles than a venturi. The best venturis out there, perhaps the beckett and mazzei, arent even intended for this application. Mazzei venturis are intended for mixing liquids... not for mixing air into water. At that, they arent even that great (from the engineering standpoint). We just dont know any better because its the best around. The drawback of a needlewheel is they dont handle head-pressure too well. That 6' aquamedic skimmer? You have to drain it 1/2 way to start it or it wont draw in air! A needlewheel loses its air input potential as you get taller and taller.

Even better than needlewheels are pure air-driven skimmers. Their efficiency is great, but their downfall is the airstones that clog.

So, put needlewheel together with air pump, and what do you get? The best of both worlds. A very efficient air delivery and mixing system that requires very little cleaning/tweaking. The air throughput is constant and cheap from the wattage standpoint.

Perhaps a good option is to buy just a body, like those solar skimmers, and then plumb on two dart needlewheels... then feed a nice alita pump into the darts. You would get over 200 scfh (just under 6000 lph) on a 6' tall skimmer. That would kill a RK2

 

[Shawnts106]

Perhaps a good option is to buy just a body, like those solar skimmers, and then plumb on two dart needlewheels... then feed a nice alita pump into the darts. You would get over 200 scfh (just under 6000 lph) on a 6' tall skimmer. That would kill a RK2

I like this idea!!! explain more...

 

[gcarroll]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9066722#post9066722 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Perhaps a good option is to buy just a body, like those solar skimmers, and then plumb on two dart needlewheels... then feed a nice alita pump into the darts. You would get over 200 scfh (just under 6000 lph) on a 6' tall skimmer. That would kill a RK2

OK. So If I accept your rational, wouldn't it be a better idea to get 2 of the new ATI bubble masters instead? the pull over 3000 lph each? Not only will it take in more air, the bubbles are much finer than needlewheels produce and smaller bubbles equals more surface area, right. more air + smaller bubbles = better performance? If this is correct, I can say I learned alot from this thread.

 

[hahnmeister]

The volume of the air is one thing, the path that it takes to the top is another.

Take a look at the Aqua Medic T5000 series. The 'shorty' is 24" tall and rated for a mere 250gallons with 600lph of air throughput. The 'single', which is the same pump, body diameter, etc, is rated for 1000gallons with the same pump, and at 78" of height, you can bet its pulling alot less air than the shorty. This is why they have the 'twin' with dual pumps to make up for the head loss.

Now if that bubblemaster were able to do 3000lph AND be 6' tall, then yeah, Its rating would be something more impressive than it is. As it though, I dont think they pull more than 1000lph per pump last I checked.

In general, more air + smaller bubbles = better performance, but the skimmer height and turbulence within the skimmer hold equally important roles.

 

[gcarroll]

My friend is getting 18 lpm on each pump with his BM250. Since the BM injects the water in a swirling motion, it would seem to get alot more contact time than something like an H&S and Deltec right? Also with the dispersion plate at the bottom, turbulance is kept at a minimum. To me it sounds like all the right things are being done on this skimmer. I'm asking because I'm trying to figure at what point the amount of air taken in is more important than height and contact time.

 

[hahnmeister]

Well, I PMed Spazz on this one. He said he cant post here since he is considered commercial now.

I would suggest giving him a call/PM though if you are looking for a commmercial skimmer. He is going to be taking on RK2 with his skimmers. He has a prototype on the way in the next couple of weeks for a skimmer that will do 300cfh at a lower wattage than the current Dart NW.

Hes also looking at building skimmers that are 40" in diameter and 10' tall, capable of keeping 30,000g systems... with 20-30 cfm's!!!

 

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9065948#post9065948 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
First off, how many hear have used these large commercial skimmers? Just because the aquaculture facilities use them doesn't mean a thing. They purchased those skimmers 10+ years ago. Many of these places are very behind in their husbandry techniques and equipment

Absolutely True.

Also when I said that Bill Wayne skimmer Out performed his comparable sized RK2 by 10 xs I was not trying to exaggerate. I was referring to his reported skimmate production of the two skimmers on the same system both in quanity and concentration. (just going by memories I cant find the thread.)

 

[hahnmeister]

Bill Wann is the name, and I doubt you will find much in the threads, as what threads there are, the pics have been removed.

Thats why I save all of Bill's pics when he posts them, or Spazz does... they may not last long.

 

[nyvp]

here you go before I broke the skimmer in. I needed to raise the head a bit









this is a spazz 18" x 72"

single dart with air pump both running close to 185w together.







.

 

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9069764#post9069764 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Well, I PMed Spazz on this one. He said he cant post here since he is considered commercial now.

I would suggest giving him a call/PM though if you are looking for a commmercial skimmer. He is going to be taking on RK2 with his skimmers. He has a prototype on the way in the next couple of weeks for a skimmer that will do 300cfh at a lower wattage than the current Dart NW.

Hes also looking at building skimmers that are 40" in diameter and 10' tall, capable of keeping 30,000g systems... with 20-30 cfm's!!!

300 SCFH with less than 160 watts? man things are moving right along for him. that Great i cant wait to here more. i guess now i can say we have arrived at a true bubble pump. :thumbsup:

OK hahn you gat me hooked here, 20-30 cfm Xs 60 = 1200-1800 cfh WoW :eek1: tell me more PLEEEESE

 

[Shawnts106]

In general, more air + smaller bubbles = better performance, but the skimmer height and turbulence within the skimmer hold equally important roles.

I agree

 

[Shawnts106]

That vid is nice, very nice skimmer.

What pump did you say? Sequence NW DART? or just a reg dart with a air tube in it? btw? how do you get air into a dart?

 

[nyvp]

its an older baldor dart from seq

there is a inlet right before the intake and a valve to regulate the air

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9074779#post9074779 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Roland Jacques
300 SCFH with less than 160 watts? man things are moving right along for him. that Great i cant wait to here more. i guess now i can say we have arrived at a true bubble pump. :thumbsup:

OK hahn you gat me hooked here, 20-30 cfm Xs 60 = 1200-1800 cfh WoW :eek1: tell me more PLEEEESE

PM Spazz, hes the one with the info... Im just passing it on.

 

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9068279#post9068279 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gcarroll
My friend is getting 18 lpm on each pump with his BM250. Since the BM injects the water in a swirling motion, it would seem to get alot more contact time than something like an H&S and Deltec right? Also with the dispersion plate at the bottom, turbulance is kept at a minimum. To me it sounds like all the right things are being done on this skimmer. I'm asking because I'm trying to figure at what point the amount of air taken in is more important than height and contact time.

I am a big fan of the BM250 skimmer. It is my favorite relatively low price under cabinet skimmer. In essence it just a skimmer neck top to bottom, 6" diameter lower section and 6" dia neeck/upper section. The 10" "body" is really nothing more than a exit path that minimizes residual bubbles. That skimmer is all about massive air to water interface. That makes up for lack of Dwell. Both dwell and massive air would be ideal, but if I had to choose massive air to water ratio or extended dwell, id would trade my 7' tall 40 SCFH skimmer, for the 20" tall 80 scfh BM 250 if i wanted to remove the most "waste".

The BM 300 recirc may be the one that give you both. (suppose to be out in March or so.)

Shawnts106,
You now looking at 12 tubs now for your system. Whats that 500 gallons or so? You mentioned ASM g-6, I would look at the BM 250 instead. Octopus DNW400 can probable do what want as is, with 60 scfh. It can also be meshwheel modded to really perform, 16" dia body 32" tall. If you mod and run it with all 4 pumps running, you would have to extend the neck about 20" to handle the 200 SCFH that it could put out.

 

[gcarroll]

But Roland, does the swirling injection path of the BM increase dwell time or is it irrelvant. I have seen a BM250, large Deltecs, BK300 & BK400 in person. The BM250 was the only skimmer that impressed me on skimmate production. The volume of skimmate was incredible and somewhat rivaled Becketts and other injection skimmers. If it takes in more air, produces more bubbles, uses the same wattage, and produces more skimmate, why is the BK still regarded as the King of the Needle-wheel skimmers? I saw pics of a Dart needlewheel skimmer in a link on this thread and I was again not impressed with skimmate production. The color was tea like and when you consider the size of the skimmer, i have seen many skimmers that will outperform it. You seem to totally discount Escobals theory of skimming and do not seem to weigh skimmate production as a factor when judging a skimmer.

 

[invincible569]

No one ever talks about Ratz Skimmers.. they have some different huge sizes. here's one

 

[Roland Jacques]

gcarroll

BM is the new kid on the block. it will take a year or more to get any respect in the main stream IMO. Also they have growing pains as they adjust their skimmers to market desires. (more adjustable, dryer skimmate...)

I can also tell you that some people who have inrrest in other skimmer brands wont get behind something they cant profit form or loose money from their current inventory ...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9080979#post9080979 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gcarroll
You seem to totally discount Escobals theory of skimming and do not seem to weigh skimmate production as a factor when judging a skimmer.

NO NO NO I just question it. I've done some testing of my own and just when things don't jive I dig further. Escobals says some things that I think were was from his prospective on skimmers as he knew them to be. Looking at skimmers from in the box IMO. and it really only one issue.

I do totally give skimmate production as the #1 way of comparing skimmers. It does not tell the whole story but it the best first step in testingand most of the time all you have to test to determine a clear winner. The thing is they have to be compared on the same system, same time, adjusted similarly, and minimize all the variables.

As far as benefit of swirling I don't see any with the BM, it's just a good way to deliver the mixture so it distributed evenly IMO.

ill try to get you the right link with the info im referring to. all skimmers find their equilibrium where they slowdown skimmate production to that of what the tank can supply. When that skimmer was first put on Bills tank idont remember if the RK@ ws removed exactly at the same time or not but it pulled out tar like skimmate for weeks by the gallons that the RK2 was not getting.

 

[nyvp]

Thats the real test. If one skimmer is pulling 1 cup/day and you change the skimmer and its pulling 2 cups/day of darker skum. I have never seen a skimmer do what mine is yet.

 

[Roland Jacques]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9084754#post9084754 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nyvp
Thats the real test. If one skimmer is pulling 1 cup/day and you change the skimmer and its pulling 2 cups/day of darker skum. I have never seen a skimmer do what mine is yet.

what skimmer dd you have? and what do you have now that doulbled producton for you?