going skimmerless on sps

[clkwrk]

Coralife over remora . Hands down

 

[samsfishnchips]

thefuture,

understood, don't worry the fun will begin when you start selecting flow, llighting, additives, worrying about parasites ect. you will be pulling your hairs

a taste, answered what to do with frags/corals when you get them and if QT is a good idea

FishPharm,

when dealing with frags, I fear red bugs, acro flat worms, regular flat worms, and other unwanted creatures such as bad crabs ect.

A. dip like lugol's solution for general unwanted parasites

B. interceptor for red bugs

C. regular flat worms, salifert exit solution

D. acro flat worms, turkey blaster, and the coral will be inspected with a magnifier glass for them, eggs, and other regular unwanted pest

E. introduce the coral to the tank and pray I didn't miss anything

if you have the space, money for extra equip for QT, then I think is worth it, not just for parasites, but sometimes frags hinder the look of the main tank
good luck.

sam

good luck

sam

 

[mermin]

hmm do you think i could keep some acros and a few montiporas wiht some softies and mybe some lps in a 15 gal with 4 24 watt t5 lights no skimmer but a 15 percent water change weekly.

 

[glassbox-design]

I mean no disrespect by this...

but if anyone has to ask can it be done, is not ready to try.

I ran my 125 natural for 3 years and kept primarily sps. I shut it down because I moved to the city. The corals had great growth rates, but about average color. I now run BB because it's clean and simple.

Nutrient Export: macro and xenia in tank and sump

Livestock: yellow tang, asfur angel, juv.imperator, 7 yellow tailed damsels. 100+snails 100+hermits.

I attribute most of the tanks success to the sandbed. It had the most life I have ever seen. It varied from a DSB to SSB to rubble bottom in various parts of the tank. I also created different reef areas within the tank-Reef Crest, Lagoon, Cryptic etc....

Cryptic fuge area in tank.
Two rio 1700's hidden in rock work.
Carbon and Purigen run 24/7

Supps- Kalk and baking soda, iodine, high quality frozen foods.

If anything got out of check i fired up my ETSS RD3 w/ becket mod. I only had to once.

2x400 20k XM's

eric&flint

 

[mermin]

no offense man but that is a retarded statement. how elese is someone supposed to find stuff out without asking. and i am going to do it. i just want some advice instead of criticism.

 

[samsfishnchips]

mermin

hope thefuture doesn't mind

the main thing you want is to keep parameters stable, good light (you got), water changes is good (15%), and good random flow you will be able to keep them just fine, now if you want the best colors, them try to keep the fish load low, and or run phosban, some carbon (keep the water clear takes out the yellow look), ect, good luck on your setup I bet it will be a killer,

sam

 

[RedNeck Reefers]

This thread was just sent to me ...

I have been playing with my tank and using the skimmer only a few times a week and everything in it was doing fine and what seemed to be ... better.

Durning the past 2 weeks I turned the skimmer off completely and noticed visible growth and better coloration. I do weekly water changes and drip kalk as my make up water @ 3-5gallons a day. I dose nothing and feed the 14+ filled 180 stocked with exotic and other sps as well as zoos and clams.

I couldnt be more satisified .... want to buy a dual beckett?

Im definitely skimmerless now .....

 

[thefuture]

RedNeck Reefer
i think you should wait a while after this change to fully determine if this is very effective cause some changes are good for a while but mite change as time goes on

 

[thefuture]

nunez1980
i dont mind (=

 

[liveforphysics]

I also noticed improved growth and coral health after ditching the skimmer. My tanks use high flow RFUGFs, and use chaetomophora algea removal as the sole means of nutrient export. I radically overfeed pleanty of fish. No waterchanges EVER, top off done with tap water, and in large swings.

As far as peoples concern about doing a big 37% monthly water change; after diving in differnt coral reefs around the world and checking the salinity and temps swings between high and low tide, perticularly in times of poor weather, I decided that SPS corals are a bit more stable than I had previously thought. Also, seeing beautiful huge heads of SPS corals that were sticking right out of the water in extreme low tide conditions for an hour or more bakeing in the hot sun, then appearing no differnt than any other coral tissue within minutes of going back in the water changed my ideas about how much danger corals are in when they are left out in open air for a bit.

Anyways, here is a pic from my tank, no waterchanges, no skimmer, exellent SPS colors and growth. The tank uses a calc reactor to keep Ca and dkh up. And yeah, my glass is dirty, I dont clean it.

I just wanted to say, that yes, you can have a tank with no skimmer. If you are doing water changes as well, it should be a cake walk.

 

[smeese]

no skimmer = aiptasia central
no skimmer = hair algae over time
All just my opinion...but hey you asked!

 

[samsfishnchips]

guys,

anything is possible, but thank god you guys are very specific, about running it for a few weeks in the case of RedNeck Reefers, don't know how long liveforphysics is being run like that,

we have come along way, perfecting our equipment, for now not to use it I find it kind of funny, my skimmer doesn't just clean my setup, but let me keep color corals with high bio load, I love both,

the way I see it, the sand is doing all the work, sooner or later, what's that word "crash"

again this is MY opinion, and do believe there is more than one way to skin a cat wish you guys luck...

here is two cases where equipment has made the different

good day,

sam

 

[ClownReef®]

Ive seen RedNeck Reefers tank in person and it is amazing, the corals have excellent color and the growth is just ridiculous!..So i am definitely going to follow up on his skimmerless adventure..gonna take note of any changes he has on his system...but sometimes i do think we clean the water WAY too much..skimmers and ozone and UV sterilizers and other stuff..For now im keeping my skimmer (or gonna try to get a better one)..but im definitely gonna stay on top of this and see what happens.

 

[thefuture]

i think another reason why some people can go skimmerless and have no problems is cause they have macro algea doing the job of the skimmer. i remember reading in a RK mag where it claimed that macro alegae took out as much gunk a skimmer does though it is a natural method. in a way i wouldnt just jump into skimmerless cause some of these claims have just been weeks. if some1 has done it for a few years then maybe i will follow.

 

[thefuture]

nunez1980,
are those your tanks? very beautiful by the way. can you give me more info on the second one and maybe some pics. filtration, tank size, skimmer, etc. thanks

 

[Heinz]

if you wanne go skimmerless, go for it, some have to learn the hard way,

some ppl even wanne drive a car without an engine, well it works too,

 

[SaveOurReefs]

hey nunez1980,

is that the "iwan" guys tank??

He uses zeovit, and I am pretty sure that he said that the color and growth is manly because of his lights.

 

[samsfishnchips]

thefuture,

no those tanks are not mine, but tanks like that thought me some valuable lessons, if you want a beautiful tank, than you need to expend money, be patience, and expend more money

now my tank is in the right direction, but it takes time, patience, tomorrow will install a growth out tank, to help enhance the look of the main tank

well without any delay,

first tank info here,
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=700454&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

oh, and for comparison purposes, here is the first tank before

again takes time and look at the link, you will find many interesting idea, very very interesting....

oh and here is the link of second tank, owner joefish
info
"full tank shot Jan 21,05
120 G 24x24x48
30G sump
no refugium
no carbon
Aqua 40 w UV sterilizer
No sand ( bare bottom)
MRC CR-6 calcium reactor
MRC MR-2 souped up (with a PCX-55)
Tunze streams w/multicontroller
Return is a Gen-X PCX-55 , SQWD and two penductors .
2-250W Megachromes 10K in SLS III's driven by Ice Cap .
2-54W T-5 actinics"

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=8920&thumb=1

sam

 

[samsfishnchips]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7172435#post7172435 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SaveOurReefs
hey nunez1980,

is that the "iwan" guys tank??

He uses zeovit, and I am pretty sure that he said that the color and growth is manly because of his lights.

saveourreefs,

first part, yes thats iwan tank, beautiful right

second part, he does use some zeovit products, but believe he doens't use the whole system.

basically here is summary by doody

Summary of the 'Iwan Method'
I have been asked via PM if I could do a summary of Iwan's methods by pulling together what we have learned from this thread so far. Clearly his tank is such an inspiration to us. So what follows is my understanding of his approach, a step by step guide for english speakers on how much of what is needed, reference to manufacturers recommendations and a little from my own experience.

The additives Iwan is using are in two categories:

Probiotic (biotechnology based on bacterial interactions with disovled componds) method - (and an alternative approach to the Zeo Basic 4):

1. Prodibio Bio Digest - Bacteria strains to take No3 and PO4 to undetectable levels; - Dosed every 2 weeks - 1 ampule per 1000lts;

2. Prodibio Bio TIPM (or Trace) - bacteria food. Dosed every 2 weeks - 1 ampule per 200ltrs;

3. Zeo Start 2: Carbon bacteria food: Dosed daily 1ml per 100ltrs. (One of the Zeo basic 4);

Coral food and trace elements:

4. Prodibio Reef Booster - Omega 3, Amino Acids, and trace elements. Dosed weekly at 1 ampule per 400ltrs;

5. Zeo Coral Vitaliser (CV)- SPS food dosed daily after lights out 1-3 drops per 100l (depending on stocking levels);

6. Zeo Amino Acid High Concentrat (AAHC): Dosed daily after lights out 1-3 drops per 1 100 ltrs - Coral growth and coloration enhancer;

7. Zeo Potassium Iodine Flouride (PIF) : Dosed twise a week anytime at 1 drop per 100ltrs;


When calculating how much you need of each - the following tips maybe helpfull.

1. 100lts = 25 USg
2. 3 drops from a Zeo pipette = 0.1 ml
3. Estimate net system water volume.

For example if your net water volume is 600ltrs (150 usg) the following amounts will be needed for 1 year 2 months supply based arround the 30 vials in the core product - Prodibio BioDigest:
(- Quater the amounts below if you want to trail the approach for 3 months.
- Double the amounts below if you are lucky enough to have a 1200ltr reef.
- Half the amounts below if you have a 1200ltr reefand want to trail it for 3 months.
- Etc etc)

1. BioDigests: 30 vials;
2. BioTIPM (or Bio Trace): 90 vials;
3. ZeoStart 2: 10 x 500ml bottles;

4. Prodibio Reef Booster: 60 vials (this is underdoing on a 600l - but seems OK so far on my reef);
5. Zeo CV: 100mls (Based on minimuml dosage of 1 drop per 100ltrs)(this product has a shelf life and should be kept in the fridge.);
6. Zeo AAHC: 100mls, as for CV;
7. Zeo PIF: 50 mls;

The above is what is required to follow Iwans dosage system and respectve manufactureres recommendations. In addition Iwan also uses live Phytoplancton (DT):

Other points that may help:

1. Bacteria Substrate: The probiotic approachs ( Prodibio and Zeo Basic 4) results in bio films that require substrates to attach themselves to. For Zeo Basic 4 it is the Zeolith rocks and LR, - in Iwans approach it is LR and 4 inch MSB in the tank (he has no sump). In my tank it is LR and MSB in the sump (tank is BB).;

2. Ozone and UV will kill the bacteria - and are incompatible with a probiotic method;

3. Regular water changes are used to replenish trace elements;

4.1 Calcium, Alkalinity and PH: In common with all other systems - CA/DKH/MG/PH need to be maintained at NSW levels - . I have found that Prodibio is effective at 10.2 dkh for those who are concerned about PH dips. Iwan and Zeo run thier DKH at 8.

4.2 Kalkwasser is not required, with the use of aragonite MSB and a CA reactor. As the tank matures and CA demand increases, a CA reactor will have to run at full pelt, be exchanged for a larger one or as Iwan does - use the balling method to supplement the CA reactor.

4.3 Given the strong acidification that will result from hyper active bacteria, I would recommend that a DSB or MSB of aragonite is used in the tank or sump to buffer the water and maintain PH at 8.1 just before lights go on (point of highest acidification in the daily cycle. My sump MSB base area is 20% of the tank base area and seems to work fine;


5. Protein skimming is always helpfull. I have found that taking the skimmer off for 3 weeks to test the effect on phyto and zoo plancton populations did not result in a rise of NO3 or PO4. I took off a super agressive detlec skimmer, but have since put on a more plancton friendly Tunze skimmer. NO3 and PO4 remain undetectable. Skimmate is lightening gradually the longer Prodio is used;

6. Algae refugium: IME the effect on algae refugium with Prodibio is similar to the reported effect with Zeo BAsic 4. During the first 4 weeks the chateo continued to grow well, then stagnated and at week 6 begab to die due to NO3 PO4 starvation - so keep an eye out for that.

7. Activated carbon: I have found that 24/7 use of activated carbon (rowacarbon) through a Tunze quick change filter (ie powered) has not resulted in STN or RTN. This is switched of for 30 mins after any dosage). However - I may not be experiencing the full effect of the coral food and tace element suppliments and will change carbon use to 24/7 passive use;

8. Fluidised Rowaphos: This media is at the very last stage in the sump - and the small amount that I fluidise has not been depleted. This may indicate that it is no longer needed. Iwan no longer uses it;

9 Lighting: There is no doubt in Germany that T5 lighting with individual parabolic reflectors alternating between actinic and white bulbs in a 50/50 ration is highly effective for SPS. Full side to side and front to back coverage is required. This will have a radiant heat effect and raise tank water temperatures. Running fans to cool T5 bulbs will control tank water temperature and increase T5 light output.

It allows coral placement across the full length and width of the tank to a depth of 80cm (depending on SPS species) from the tubes. Iwan changes his approx every 9 months - dannano (RC TOTM March 05 hasnt changes his in over 2 years). B Mohr described a slowing of SPS growth after 9 months.

10. SPS Coloration: None of the above can turn a genetically brown sps into any other colour. This approach will make the best of the color in the coral DNA.

11. Risks:

An attractive feature of the prodibio approach has been no observed risk of RTN due to rapid changes in clinical nitrogen cycle parameters.

I suggest you can be confident to use the Prodibio elements from day 1, along with Zeo CV and AAHC (these 2 start at 1 drop per 100lts per day and titrate the dope upwards in 2 weekly intervals)

There are contra indications with ZeoStart2 and PIF that are described in the Zeo Guide V1.01.

Finally - I hope this is a helpful sumarry of what I have learned to date - and many many thanks to Iwan for introducing the english speaking world to this approach, and I would be very grateful if Iwan would wish to add anything to help us along further.

HTH

Simon (trythechi)

 

[samsfishnchips]

SaveOurReefs,

now do you think his growth and color is "mainly his lights" :lol:

thats one of the things people forget or have an illusion about

lights, skimmer, corals, flow, ect. that by its own doesn't make a system, its called a "system" for a reason,

so many ask if T-5 can work, people post a pic of his tank, but in most cases, they don't mention his other equipment, his good attentions to the tank, his biological method that he has mastered over the years, that he never runs his tank skimless, ect.

most people have a few things you can learn from, thats why you need to be open minded and try new techniques, or advice, I like this quote from iwan

There are many people who extremely much understand of the biological and chemical processes. There are many people who have a great theoretical knowledge. My deep respect!
But if it turns out well to realize this knowledge also in success, then this is the perfection! I also know people with great knowledge but moderate successes. One is at least just as important as knowledge at the reef keeping ....the "salty thumb", the basic sense of the tank.

well have a good day,

sam