Grounding Probe or not?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11982364#post11982364 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psteeleb
sounds like you probably do have more then one source. but taking it up from zero to all on works better to find them.
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I understand what you are saying 100% and i agree with you whole heartedly. If you saw my jumbled wiring mess you would understand why it is not so easy. The system consists of 3 tanks, the dt, sump and fuge. All three tanks have lighting and pumps in them for returns, reactor, powerheads, skimmer and so on but not all the cords reach to one outlet so i had to run extension cords to power strips and thats where all hell broke loose. I ran heavy gauge ext cords to the strips in the locals that i need them. There is only one section where i can touch the concrete floor while sticking my finger in the tank and its not close to any plugs. So since i cant feel the current unless im touching the concrete with my foot and sticking my finger in the tank(actually the fuge) So i have to unplug whatever it is im trying to test if i can even find wich plug it is and then walk to the fuge area, stick a toe on the concrete and jam a finger in the fuge. Then half the time i cant tell if im getting zapped or not. Im starting to wonder about my powerheads and wavemaker. That would explain why it seems more noticeable at times if its a powerhead or two on the wavemaker causing the problem.

See what i mean, i got a mess and it stinks to say the least.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11982376#post11982376 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psteeleb
do you have access to one of those small (radio shack type) volt oms meters?
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Yes, but i dont know how to use it really. What setting would i need and where would i place its probes and what will i look for? Im sorry for all the questions, electricity is not my strong point obviously.
 
I feel for you - been there a couple times and its a real pain multiplied byt the complexity of your system setup. As long as your taking cordsd off etc. I'd wipe them down and try to get even the least amount of salt crrep or other crud off them

The hardest ones to find is when you have a couple items that when by isolated are not enough to detect manually using the ouch method - not a good method anyway. But add two or three of these and they become detectable

If you can get to a volt oms meter and set it low you can detect them indivually. Good luck - I'm sure this is exacly how you planned on spending Saturday.
 
I'll quickly add my testimonial to the list. I bought a ground probe because I'd read a few things and it "seemed like a good idea." A month or so later I managed to not notice that I'd broken my glass heater in the sump while cleaning. That is, until I tried plugging everthing back in and the GFI kicked off.

Like a dummy, my process of elimination had me plugging in the grounding probe last, at which point the GFI went again. Try again. At some point in all this I wound up with a big jolt when I stuck my hand in the water to physically inspect the heater. Not enough to knock me on my a** but having been shocked before it was a *very* significant one.

NOTE THIS!!! Without the grounding probe plugged in, the GFI did not kick off. As soon as I plugged in the probe - off. Heaters for some reason do not have a grounding plug. I'm not an electrician or a triple E, so I'm sure there is a good reason for this. But the SHOCKING truth is, I would NEVER operate a tank that was not on a WORKING GFI with a grounding probe again.
 
I bought the GFCI uptown today and i will order the ground probe monday.

Can anyone explain to me how to use the ohm meter to check my equipment piece by piece.

What setting would i need? I know they have ohms, and i believe volts and one or two others.
Where would i place its probes to test equipment? Do i keep the device im trying to check in the water and put the red and black probe on the meter into the tank or how do i go about this?
 
oms reads resistance - you could do it this way but it would be difficult

set it to a low voltage. the black probe needs to be grounded and the red probe put in the water. you should get a reading (or a jump on tge meter) when there is curent running into the water from a source

the device may have several settings - try it on a low one and if it spikes you know you have something. if you had a lot of current you wuld have been shocked more then you described

if you dont get a reading check your connections and make sure you have it grounded

hope that helps and sorry I didnt catch it earlier
 
It does help, Thank You.
I just stuck my finger in there again after not touching it all day long (barefoot and grounded) and i got zapped alot stronger then it was before. Only difference is my lights on the tank are ON and my sump lights were OFF just now and last night the sump was on and the tank was off.

After that ouch test i just did im thinking my problem might be pretty harmfulll to my tank critters. Everone eats and the acros have decent color but they dont seem to grow as fast as they should. Like i see ppl say i got this 1/2 inc frag in 6/07 and here it is on 2/08 and just look at the growth! my stuff dont do that lately, everything stony is real slow growin and the parameters great all the time... maybe its just an observation i want to connect to the current in my tank...
I cant believe my poor animals are in there getting roached and there is not much i can do until mid week. I cant find the source for the life of me and im thinking i have more than one source or possible salt creep causing it cause ive been through the plugs time and time again. This should be interesting to figure out but i will absolutely report back to this thread with my findings.
I know now that i have a serious issue even if it has not made the tang bust out in HLLE or lit up my tank with a spark show.
You all have been a great help, Thank you
 
No sir, i checked the outlet before i set up my tank there with one of those three pronged testers with the lights on it. I seen one pictured in the thread you linked me too earlier. It told me it was wired up correctly and it had ground. Not all of my house is grounded, its very old but the basement was finished right before we moved in and i guess they had to meet code because anything that they put in at that time is grounded. I actually did my best to ground the circuit my computer was going to have to be on. I ran a pipe about 4 foot into the ground and ran me a copper lead all the way to the socket that i needed. My computer was shocking me much the same as my tank is before i grounded it. But i know that outlet is grounded according to the tree pronged tester, i tested the whole house and like i said its not all grounded but that one is.
 
Just for kicks i grounded myself and stuck my finger into my biocube and there was no tingle. The biocube IS on an ungrounded outlet im pretty sure. While testing the cube or the tank with the finger test im standing in the same exact spot.
 
Well i believe i realize the err of my ways. I now understand after talking with my secret mastermind reefer friend whom i have tons of respect for, that even though my lights dont touch the tank at all in any way, they can be causing the voltage IN my tank. They arent grounded at all... They were second hand retrofits that i installed like newb in a hurry to get his tank up, with no electrical knowledge and no directions. I needed the reflectors grounded and the ballasts and neither are anything close to being grounded. I was not unplugging my lights earlier because..., well, they have absolutly no contact with my tank. I did not figure they could cause this but i did suspect them once i stuck my finger in with the lights on today and i got zinged.
Also he suggested very strongly, like many have, that i use a GFCI and a ground probe for MY safety first and foremost. And i realize now that my experiment with the biocube was completely foolish as well, that circuit is NOT grounded and i know this. IF there would have been a shorting out maxi jet or anything in that tank, i would likely be dead because there is no other escape route for the current because the outlet is not grounded. I would have made the ground and it would have passed right through me, and likely injured me at the very least.

Im going to get off my soap but this should be a prime example of an under experienced reefer thinking he knew enough, when in reality i knew nothing, and it was potentially some very serious mistakes.

Grounded GFCI outlets and probes for me, ty.
 
I think i can explain why i was getting shocked even when the tank lights were off. I run a reverse photoperiod my sumpand fuge lights on a timer that is not grounded because again i was doing things my way and not the right way. I used a cheap light timer that is only 2 prongs and i snapped the thrid prong off of the adapter i used to plug in my lighting down there, none of it is properly grounded. It was less of a shock becuase the MH fuge light is like 3 feet off the tank. I unpluged the sump lighting because i thought it was close enough to the tank to be a possibility. I did not unplug the ungrounded sunpod because its hung from the ceiling and 3 feet off the tank..
If im wrong and i find leaky equip i will come back and let yas know but im almost sure, that my pumps and heaters are good. I take good care of them and i am extra careful when cleaning around the cords that go into the device so i dont break the epoxy seal.
I belive i did not realize this before now because when i bought my second set of bulbs i had to move the fixtures up to acclimate and i jumped from 14 to 10k. The fixtures were too close to the tank for me to stick my hand in there when the lights were on, i can swivel them back when i need acess but i always waited till lights out so i was not moving around a lit bulb. Plus im normally wearing shoes of some sort wich ground me well enough i guess. 95 percent of the time i wear shoes in that room cause its down stairs and the floors are cold and the other 5 percent of the time i doubt i had cuts on my hand... Its been like this for more than a year now, absolutly unreal.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11981565#post11981565 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
The GFCI does not need or utilize a ground probe to trip so its presence is not necessary. Use a GFCI and forget about the ground probe. There is no data suggesting it will help the health of your fish, and a good possibility it will be a hazzard to your safety.

I strongly disagree.

With a ground probe and a GFCI, there is a path to ground, so any exposed electrical wires will leak some current into the water and out the ground probe, triggering the GFCI.

Without a ground probe and with a GFCI, there is often no path to ground, so the GFCI will not trip until there is a path to ground.

The first thing to provide that path may be your body. I do not want to test the expectation that the GFCI will trip in time to protect me. I'd rather it trip as soon as there is the potential for a problem of that sort, and a ground probe allows that.

Further, if there are exposed wires in the water (like a broken heater or powerhead), they may release copper or heavy metals and not actually trip a GFCI since there is no path to ground. With a ground probe, such an event trips a GFCI immediately, alerting you to the problem earlier than if you had no such probe.


and a good possibility it will be a hazzard to your safety.[?B]

What scenario involving both a ground probe and a GFCI endangers your safety relative to a GFCI alone?
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Would you add a ground probe to a tank that didn't use a GFCI? I know I would not as that would be like taping a ground to your leg and then touching electrical machinery. If you had a short in your lights and your hands in the water, touching the lights with your head could kill you. Electricians who work with live loads avoid grounds, so they don't subject themselves to current flow.
Now you have grounded your tank and the only thing protecting you is a safety device called a GFCI. They don't always work by the way, leaving you with a grounded tank.

GFCI's measure the outgoing current and compare it to the returning current. If there is a difference, there must be a short, so the unit trips. There is no need for a ground. I have installed them in older homes with out grounds. They work fine. Please be accurate as you have a reputation in chemistry and others will believe what you say here too.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11986423#post11986423 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
I actually did my best to ground the circuit my computer was going to have to be on. I ran a pipe about 4 foot into the ground and ran me a copper lead all the way to the socket that i needed. My computer was shocking me much the same as my tank is before i grounded it.
Click to expand...

Many would think this is ok. However you create an additional problem probably unrelated to your tank. When you use a seperate ground for a seperate outlet in the house, it has a different "ground potential" This means that if that ground is better than your house ground, electricity can flow between the two. A better option would be to ground to the nearest cold water pipe, since the pipe should already be grounded with the rest of the house.
 
There is no ground in that part of the house at all, i think my house was built in 1935, so. The whole house is 2 prong plugs except what was remodeled downstairs.
I grounded a separate single outlet where there is no ground. Do i still have cause for concern in this case?
 
My tank is in the dark except for the sump lighting which seems to not be causing a problem. As far as i can tell right now i have one leaky maxi-jet and 3 ungrounded metal halides.
I am proud to say that my fish and i are no longer taking any current, i just need to get things wired up properly today, install the GFCI and ground everything.
 
Would you add a ground probe to a tank that didn't use a GFCI?

I still would use a ground probe - see my item 3 in one of the above posts regarding HLLE
 
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