Guess the Phosphate level

[Thales]

This thread is so full of unsubstantiated anecdote presented as fact that it makes my head spin.

I believe he said "might be"... doesn't sound like he is saying it is fact. If that is SantaMonica's opinion and experience, how is it different than any other opinion posted throughout this whole thread... everything and anything discussed here has hardly been proven. Seems hypocritical.

When I have had time, I have pointed out a whole lot of the unsubstantiated anecdote presented as fact that has appeared in this thread.

My issue is stating opinion as fact.
A few things from the post:

Periphyton is a tank's natural filter
... in other words it is a nutrient sink.
....Also, any change in tank lighting, flow, food supply, or placement of rocks, can kill areas of periphton and cause of loss of filtering of nutrients. (Worse case is scrubbing, cooking, or bleaching the rocks, which kills all the periphyton and filtering).

I suspect that his characterizations of periphyton in regards to saltwater systems is stretched and await links to the papers he alluded to.

 

[Thales]

Inland Aquatics sent me an ATS and AquariumWaterTesting.com is donating several tests so we'll get to see how the ATS impacts NO3, PO4 and coral health. Collected a test just before adding the screen to the ATS for a nice baseline. He is a pic of the tanks as it is right now.

Phosphate in this pic - 2.15, up from 1.51.

 

[Bilk]

When I have had time, I have pointed out a whole lot of the unsubstantiated anecdote presented as fact that has appeared in this thread.

My issue is stating opinion as fact.
A few things from the post:


I suspect that his characterizations of periphyton in regards to saltwater systems is stretched and await links to the papers he alluded to.

I did a quick google search of "periphytic organisms in seawater" and "periphyton in the reef tank". Does someone with a much better biology background want to dig into this to see how it influences the discussion?

 

[Allmost]

When I have had time, I have pointed out a whole lot of the unsubstantiated anecdote presented as fact that has appeared in this thread.

wrong.

you have stated your opinion only, and have not backed it up by anything. just a bunch of maybe's, which is potentially as incorrect as my opinion, and the next guy. so please stop acting like the god of reef. you just saying " thats incorrect" has no value for any of us here, unless u can state why and what the correct fact is and backit up by science .

I personally dont think santamonica is right on every point. but you saying "unsubstantiated anecdote presented" doesnt have any effect ... as your own article is the same with no proof or science behind it and this thread !

 

[reefmutt]

Not to derail the periphyton discussion, in which I am interested, Thales, have you installed the ats yet? Has it begun to grow algae? And if so, I'd love to see a pic of it in action..

 

[Hind]

Very thought provoking thread. Thanks to op and others for sharing their experiences. How rewarding would this hobby be if the challenges were all known and predicted? I rather enjoy the evolutionary didactic progression to the mysteries of marine life. I believe through collaboration of study is the only way to promote success. To appreciate the unknown, one must keep an open mind....

 

[Thales]

wrong.

you have stated your opinion only, and have not backed it up by anything. just a bunch of maybe's, which is potentially as incorrect as my opinion, and the next guy. so please stop acting like the god of reef. you just saying " thats incorrect" has no value for any of us here, unless u can state why and what the correct fact is and backit up by science .

The only real opinion that I have expressed is that I don't know what is going on in my tank. I have also not said that anything SM said is incorrect, I said it was anecdote presented as fact. Through this thread you keep saying that I think things I don't think, which is weird. You are clearly missing my overall point with my series of articles, and if you find what I have to say is so valueless, I wish you good luck in someone else's thread.

I personally dont think santamonica is right on every point. but you saying "unsubstantiated anecdote presented" doesnt have any effect ... as your own article is the same with no proof or science behind it and this thread !

The last article has plenty of science behind it, but you clearly missed the point as it was specifically not trying to provide proof of anything. You are looking for reef recipes, and I am clearly trying get away from that kind of thinking.

From the article:

What We Are and Aren't Saying
One of the things we are saying that it is important to understand is that the reality of water chemistry testing comes with inherent uncertainty, and that chasing numbers can be detrimental and not effective. Constantly tweaking water parameters can be detrimental to aquarium life, as well as costly.

In no way are we saying that everyone should run out and run reefs at high PO43- levels. We are simply not sure what is going on in these reefs with higher than "˜normal' PO43- levels and any methodological changes need more understanding and support before they can be recommended. What we are saying is how wonderful it is that observations from aquairsts can make us take a long hard look at what we previously accepted as "˜figured out'. It may turn out that higher PO43- levels are not much of a big deal at all, or it may turn out that we will come to understand some previously unknown process in aquariums. Only time will tell, and it sure seems fantastic to be part of a living, breathing, changing scientific effort where skeptical thinking informs all sides of the process.

 

[Thales]

Not to derail the periphyton discussion, in which I am interested, Thales, have you installed the ats yet? Has it begun to grow algae? And if so, I'd love to see a pic of it in action..

Not a derailment in my opinion. I have installed it. The screens were lost in shipping for and extra day and arrived a little haggard. I left them for a week and scraped them today - got some goo and some algae - and will see what they look like in a week.
The ats is a teeter totter model and is pretty slick. I am a bit crashed for time in the next 1.5 months, but will try to get some images soon. Please feel free remind me.
Thanks!

 

[pscott99]

I think I missed something here. Why are you experimenting with an ATS when your tank is so stable. Pulling out algae could actually do damage could it not. An it would prove nothing about the ATS.

 

[Thales]

I think I missed something here. Why are you experimenting with an ATS when your tank is so stable. Pulling out algae could actually do damage could it not. An it would prove nothing about the ATS.

The whole thing is absolutely a risk.
The tank isn't necessary stable.
The phosphate has gone up from 1.8 to 2.5 and I can't help but feel that at some point that is going to cause problems (I could be completely wrong about that). When Julian and Charles were over we talked about the idea that growth and color might be even better if the phosphate was in an imagined golden zone, that it might be fine high, but better not crazy high. We could be wrong about that too.
The nitrate is also high - 50 to 80 depending on which testing methodology you want to believe.
ATS is supposed impact both those parameters, and regular testing should give some insight into the efficacy of ATS in that regard. ATS, provided it works to bring down nitrate and phosphate, seems like a good fit with my approach to husbandry because it seems low maintenance, and quite affordable. Given the levels in my tank, this test should show some insight into what ATS can actually do in regards to those two parameters on a living, breathing tank.
There is also the risk of algae toxicity as shown by the work of Forrest Young among others. I'll be looking out for that. Another reason I was thinking about ATS is because my euro bracing acts as a defacto ATS, and can grow a non insignificant amount of algae as the water levels changes in the tank, and I scrape it from time to time. So perhaps the algae issue isn't that big of a worry. I may also run carbon on the outflow of the ATS.

Thats my thinking anyway.

 

[regalangelfish]

Thales,

Forgive me as I am late to the game

Tried to read through most of the threat but found myself skipping around focusing on your responses to posts which allowed me to get through the majority of it. If someone else already touched upon the following perhaps you can point me to the post.

I for one appreciate what you have done here. That is, that sometimes conventional thinking to an otherwise mostly misunderstood and unconventional hobby has made us victims of following like sheeple. I know, I know you are not condoning anyone follow your formula as you have made it clear (at least to me) that you, yourself do not know what that formula is. Anyway, its refreshing that after 16 yeas in the hobby (still consider myself a baby) there are moments when you come across something that turns everything you thought you understood as right-side-up into up-side-down and sideways. BUT... somehow what you are doing works and pics of your tank is proof pudding. Anyone seeing that has to ask why/how? I love it! so thank you.

Ok, enough with that. Was wondering if you have taken any thought to the Redfield ratio? I agree, that although Redfield studied reefs around the world this may/may not apply to a closed eco-system in the same ratio of 16N:1P:106C as set forth by Redfield in his studies of ocean reefs. There may however be something you are doing that is connected??? you mentioned in your last comment "imagined golden zone". So obviously you are not within the Redfield ratio but certainly some sort of, not so imagined "golden zone"

I would like to think that there is some kind of bio load vs. export golden zone that your tank is in. <<< that's because my brain wants to rationalize what is going on. So, I'm wondering, are you actually measuring all bio load that you are adding to the tank by any chance? Reason I ask is because that's where I'm at right now with my tank. Using a peristaltic pump to measure food going in (at least the amount of it not content). <<< not sure if that means a whole lot because we all know that nutrient import is introduced mainly through food but not ONLY. I've set up an automatic feeding system that is somewhat consistent in what it dispenses into the tank in the hope that my bio pellets can populate bacteria population to uptake this load. So, it would be very interesting for me to know the amount of food you put in and if by chance you currently use bio-pellets or implement any kind of carbon dosing?

So far my fairly recent conversion (6 months in the making) of my mostly softies with some LPS to mostly SPS with some LPS is going fairly well. My system is fairly established though (16 year tank with one move). Its interesting to note that when I kept softies which I found to be more tolerant of dirty water. my tank was tested typically at 40 No3. Now-a-days it tests around 8 No3 and .04 Po4 and able to grow SPS from frags (I like pain,lol) with moderate to good growth <<< whatever that means

BTW, wondering if you went with an inland aquatics ATS? you mentioned a see-saw setup and I know that they have developed something like that. I too would love to see your ATS setup also when you get time to take pics. in the mean time, I'm sure you know the work of Dr. Walter Adey http://www.algalturfscrubber.com/

ok as it is, its late and this post is way too long already so...

 

[regalangelfish]

1:25 in this video... Hope this is ok to post?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0psoZ5-yRA

 

[dtum]

What a terrific thread, definitely one of the best on RC.

Richard, thank you for sharing your experience with us and for making me think (it's an interesting sensation). Keeping a reef successfully for 10+ years is quite an achievement and certainly is not a very common thing.

You mentioned mechanical filtration in your article. What's your take on filter socks?

 

[Piper27]

For what it's worth the current tank of the month runs has higher than normal phosphates, keeps all sps, and has rediculous colors.

 

[reefmutt]

yes..stonecold's tank (current totm) is certainly a bit of an outlier and is spectacular..
his n isn't particularly low either..
makes you wonder..

Thales, what are you lighting your ats with?

sorry, i forgot.. have you been or have you ever used a refugium with submerged algae growing? if so, what lighting were you using for it?

 

[Reefvet]

yes..stonecold's tank (current totm) is certainly a bit of an outlier and is spectacular..
his n isn't particularly low either..
makes you wonder..

If you've read this thread and read some of the numbers from other successful tanks that aren't run by the numbers you realize that the current TOTM isn't an outlier.

After 40+ years in this hobby I'm so glad to see that more and more poeple are learning to judge the health of their reef tank by looking at the health of it's inhabitants and not a test kit.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

After 40+ years in this hobby I'm so glad to see that more and more poeple are learning to judge the health of their reef tank by looking at the health of it's inhabitants and not a test kit.

I am one of those people. I have not purchased another phosphate test kit after my last test kit (Rowa Merck) expired last year. I have learned to spot various biomarks as early warning systems, such as changes in the colouration of some of my corals, changes in polyp expansion, appearance of cyanobacteria and green hair algae.

This thread has been the catalyst for the change in my approach to testing.

 

[MikeC120]

I can understand it is good to be able to read your tank and not chase numbers but when something is not rite (ie color or polyp ext) don't you then need to test to tell you what is out of wack?
Or do you just wing it and add a little bit of this and a little bit of that to fix the situation?

 

[DiscusHeckel]

I can understand it is good to be able to read your tank and not chase numbers but when something is not rite (ie color or polyp ext) don't you then need to test to tell you what is out of wack?
Or do you just wing it and add a little bit of this and a little bit of that to fix the situation?

In my case, I test the following parameters on a regular basis:

Alkalinity
Calcium
Magnesium
Salinity

My statement above refers to testing of nutrients, which is the main focus of this thread.

I have found that sudden (or sometimes gradual) fluctuation in alkalinity can result in RTN/STN. Relying on RTN/STN as biomarks is not a good idea for obvious reasons. For this reason, I test for the above to ensure that my water parameters remain stable. However, some experienced reefers learned to look at the behaviour of some of their corals as early indicators of alkalinity problems and act accordingly. I am yet to develop that skill.

 

[Denadai]

In my opinion you can´t keep hot pink colors with this level of po4. Dark blue and dark green is possible

I still believe the best is po4 bellow 0.05

Best Regards