sahin
Ultimate Reefer
:uzi:
Guess the Phosphate level
- Thread starter Thales
- Start date
:uzi:
brad65ford
New member
totally agree with the underlined reasoning for this thread. But isn't it really the reason why there has been some great success when runing ULNS along with low alk/cal/mag and then run zeo products? Seems myself and others all found out by running our BB systems super clean with minimum feeding, skimming and detritus cleaning some corals suffered. We also found out our corals do better the lack of cleaning and skimming we do (up to a point) but algae increases. And lastly some of us found out (myself including) running GFO is a major no no when you already have ULNS (BB). Ive read more threads about people have not color major issues with their tanks to find out they have been stripping the hell out of the tank with GFO. This could really take a long time for the tank to recover from IMO. See below thought.
I've always wonder if the rocks themselves level the playing field of PO4. Meaning they are like a sponge reflector, they fill up with phosphate and give it back to the coral as a time release capsule. Once empty, the corals don't do as well so you need to keep the water similar levels. On another note, I've always believe this might be another reason most sand bed system are so successful more over then BB systems. The sand holds P04 and feeds the rocks which feeds the corals.
One thing is for sure you need P04 to live and its in everything similar to carbon.
None the less great thread.
I've always wonder if the rocks themselves level the playing field of PO4. Meaning they are like a sponge reflector, they fill up with phosphate and give it back to the coral as a time release capsule. Once empty, the corals don't do as well so you need to keep the water similar levels. On another note, I've always believe this might be another reason most sand bed system are so successful more over then BB systems. The sand holds P04 and feeds the rocks which feeds the corals.
One thing is for sure you need P04 to live and its in everything similar to carbon.
None the less great thread.
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pscott99
New member
Ok made it to page 16. Thales did you take philosophy or debating...your the kind of person who would be fun to talk to about anything. Some of your answers have been SO funny ! What do you do for a living ?
Thales
Active member
Sorry everyone, crazy busy with home and work (Headed to the Philippines on expedition at the end of April! My job sucks!).
The tank is chugging along. Got STN on two pieces that could have been caused by salinity drift, water change, or a pump not being plugged in for a couple weeks - or something else of course. Not that worried. Moved some flow around. Added some aussie stuff from LiveAquaria.com.
More interesting, Aquarium Water Testing has donated 12 tests to me for a project on the home tank. Inland reef sent me an ATS (Cool unit) so I am going to run it and see what it does to everything.
Jack, I have no idea of the mulm in your sump is effecting nutrient loads or not. I remember reading something by RHF a long time ago about the mulm under some starboard in a bb system and him saying something like, its not going anywhere or doing anything so don't worry about it. Could be really easy to test. Tank water test, add a bunch of mulm, let it settle and test again. Maybe?
PScott - I have a degree in Philosophy.
For a living I write Skeptical Reefkeeping articles and am a Senior Biologist at the Steinhart Aquarium in SF. Before that I was a glass blower and a professional juggler/performer/writer for 15 years.
sahin - I think I have somewhere like 150 pounds of live rock, but there are big pieces. One was 90 pounds. It was all added 10 or so years ago when the tank was set up.
The tank is chugging along. Got STN on two pieces that could have been caused by salinity drift, water change, or a pump not being plugged in for a couple weeks - or something else of course. Not that worried. Moved some flow around. Added some aussie stuff from LiveAquaria.com.
More interesting, Aquarium Water Testing has donated 12 tests to me for a project on the home tank. Inland reef sent me an ATS (Cool unit) so I am going to run it and see what it does to everything.
Jack, I have no idea of the mulm in your sump is effecting nutrient loads or not. I remember reading something by RHF a long time ago about the mulm under some starboard in a bb system and him saying something like, its not going anywhere or doing anything so don't worry about it. Could be really easy to test. Tank water test, add a bunch of mulm, let it settle and test again. Maybe?
PScott - I have a degree in Philosophy.
For a living I write Skeptical Reefkeeping articles and am a Senior Biologist at the Steinhart Aquarium in SF. Before that I was a glass blower and a professional juggler/performer/writer for 15 years. sahin - I think I have somewhere like 150 pounds of live rock, but there are big pieces. One was 90 pounds. It was all added 10 or so years ago when the tank was set up.
I have done that test, numerous ways, in my tank it has never produced any levels different than the display tank. I know my tank is not unique but also know that it may be an issue in other people's tanks. I was curious on your thoughts mainly because you have vastly more knowledge and experience than I ever hope to. It may be a good candidate for "Skeptical Reefkeeping" in the future.
One of those things that we always assumed was "bad" that probably isn't.Enjoy the trip!
Thales
Active member
Inland Aquatics sent me an ATS and AquariumWaterTesting.com is donating several tests so we'll get to see how the ATS impacts NO3, PO4 and coral health. Collected a test just before adding the screen to the ATS for a nice baseline. He is a pic of the tanks as it is right now.
Thales
Active member
I have done that test, numerous ways, in my tank it has never produced any levels different than the display tank. I know my tank is not unique but also know that it may be an issue in other people's tanks. I was curious on your thoughts mainly because you have vastly more knowledge and experience than I ever hope to. It may be a good candidate for "Skeptical Reefkeeping" in the future.
Enjoy the trip!
Do you happen to have those numbers?
SantaMonica
Well-known member
The answer might periphyton.
Periphyton is a tank's natural filter; it's the stuff that turns white rocks into other colors. It takes a while to develop, and can get thick with sponges, algae, and many other animals. And since it's alive and mostly photosynthetic, it consumes large amounts of inorganics; in other words it is a nutrient sink. I don't have the studies handy, but my recollection is that when a reef is shallower than 30 meters, the periphyton takes over as the primary filter, surpassing phytoplankton which does the filtering in the deeper waters.
Periphyton is a large source of food to pods, and the pods then feed everything else. This is why "mature" tanks feed mandarins better; the established and thick periphyton harbors and grows large numbers of pods. Well, the pods (and periphyton itself), which just converted inorganic N and P to organic living material, now is consumed by the fish etc which poop and pee and thus cause inorganics, which feed more periphyton. This is the nutrient circuit.
So, if the periphyton on the rocks is growing just as fast as the nutrients are available, then the rate the periphyton is consuming is high. Kinda like consuming all food from the refrigerator as soon as someone puts food in there. But what is the "level" of nutrients that you would measure in your water? Zero. And there would be zero food left in the fridge, even though the rate of consumption is high
Periphyton helps close the understanding of the loop in the nutrient circuit. Indeed, it's the flux of nutrients, not the levels, which may be of the most importance to the corals; well-developed periphyton enables the flux of nutrients to occur because it consumes inorganics so fast, and converts them into organics so fast.
Yes, the key word is "rate". Not level.
Yes. Although I think you mean inorganic. Periphyton is photosynthetic; the more light, the more inorganic nutrients it consumes.
The algal (photosynthetic) component of periphyton is probably responsible for this. If there is a large increase in demand of carbon by algae, it will get it from the alk.
Probably same answer as above.
On new tanks especially, periphyton has not developed yet, so the natural filter is not developed yet either. Also, any change in tank lighting, flow, food supply, or placement of rocks, can kill areas of periphton and cause of loss of filtering of nutrients. (Worse case is scrubbing, cooking, or bleaching the rocks, which kills all the periphyton and filtering).
Periphyton is a tank's natural filter; it's the stuff that turns white rocks into other colors. It takes a while to develop, and can get thick with sponges, algae, and many other animals. And since it's alive and mostly photosynthetic, it consumes large amounts of inorganics; in other words it is a nutrient sink. I don't have the studies handy, but my recollection is that when a reef is shallower than 30 meters, the periphyton takes over as the primary filter, surpassing phytoplankton which does the filtering in the deeper waters.
Periphyton is a large source of food to pods, and the pods then feed everything else. This is why "mature" tanks feed mandarins better; the established and thick periphyton harbors and grows large numbers of pods. Well, the pods (and periphyton itself), which just converted inorganic N and P to organic living material, now is consumed by the fish etc which poop and pee and thus cause inorganics, which feed more periphyton. This is the nutrient circuit.
So, if the periphyton on the rocks is growing just as fast as the nutrients are available, then the rate the periphyton is consuming is high. Kinda like consuming all food from the refrigerator as soon as someone puts food in there. But what is the "level" of nutrients that you would measure in your water? Zero. And there would be zero food left in the fridge, even though the rate of consumption is high
Periphyton helps close the understanding of the loop in the nutrient circuit. Indeed, it's the flux of nutrients, not the levels, which may be of the most importance to the corals; well-developed periphyton enables the flux of nutrients to occur because it consumes inorganics so fast, and converts them into organics so fast.
Yes, the key word is "rate". Not level.
Yes. Although I think you mean inorganic. Periphyton is photosynthetic; the more light, the more inorganic nutrients it consumes.
The algal (photosynthetic) component of periphyton is probably responsible for this. If there is a large increase in demand of carbon by algae, it will get it from the alk.
Probably same answer as above.
On new tanks especially, periphyton has not developed yet, so the natural filter is not developed yet either. Also, any change in tank lighting, flow, food supply, or placement of rocks, can kill areas of periphton and cause of loss of filtering of nutrients. (Worse case is scrubbing, cooking, or bleaching the rocks, which kills all the periphyton and filtering).
Thales
Active member
The answer might periphyton.
Periphyton is a tank's natural filter; it's the stuff that turns white rocks into other colors. It takes a while to develop, and can get thick with sponges, algae, and many other animals. And since it's alive and mostly photosynthetic, it consumes large amounts of inorganics; in other words it is a nutrient sink. I don't have the studies handy, but my recollection is that when a reef is shallower than 30 meters, the periphyton takes over as the primary filter, surpassing phytoplankton which does the filtering in the deeper waters.
Periphyton is a large source of food to pods, and the pods then feed everything else. This is why "mature" tanks feed mandarins better; the established and thick periphyton harbors and grows large numbers of pods. Well, the pods (and periphyton itself), which just converted inorganic N and P to organic living material, now is consumed by the fish etc which poop and pee and thus cause inorganics, which feed more periphyton. This is the nutrient circuit.
So, if the periphyton on the rocks is growing just as fast as the nutrients are available, then the rate the periphyton is consuming is high. Kinda like consuming all food from the refrigerator as soon as someone puts food in there. But what is the "level" of nutrients that you would measure in your water? Zero. And there would be zero food left in the fridge, even though the rate of consumption is high
Periphyton helps close the understanding of the loop in the nutrient circuit. Indeed, it's the flux of nutrients, not the levels, which may be of the most importance to the corals; well-developed periphyton enables the flux of nutrients to occur because it consumes inorganics so fast, and converts them into organics so fast.
Yes, the key word is "rate". Not level.
Yes. Although I think you mean inorganic. Periphyton is photosynthetic; the more light, the more inorganic nutrients it consumes.
The algal (photosynthetic) component of periphyton is probably responsible for this. If there is a large increase in demand of carbon by algae, it will get it from the alk.
Probably same answer as above.
On new tanks especially, periphyton has not developed yet, so the natural filter is not developed yet either. Also, any change in tank lighting, flow, food supply, or placement of rocks, can kill areas of periphton and cause of loss of filtering of nutrients. (Worse case is scrubbing, cooking, or bleaching the rocks, which kills all the periphyton and filtering).
This post is so full of unsubstantiated anecdote presented as fact that it makes my head spin.
jroovers
New member
This thread is so full of unsubstantiated anecdote presented as fact that it makes my head spin.
I believe he said "might be"... doesn't sound like he is saying it is fact. If that is SantaMonica's opinion and experience, how is it different than any other opinion posted throughout this whole thread... everything and anything discussed here has hardly been proven. Seems hypocritical.
I believe he said "might be"... doesn't sound like he is saying it is fact. If that is SantaMonica's opinion and experience, how is it different than any other opinion posted throughout this whole thread... everything and anything discussed here has hardly been proven. Seems hypocritical.
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