H.magnifica health & melanism in Percs?

[maxxII]

I was reading this thread

Yellow H.magnifica

And came across these pictures:

They are the same pair of Rod's Onyx clowns, they just lost the black when introduced to a new H.magnifica anemone. The new anemone is apparently newly captive and not a healthy specimen from another aquarium newly introduced to these clowns.

The clowns are a mated pair and diet has not been changed, the top picture is before, the bottom is most recent.

These pictures reminded me of my own interesting episode with "œBrown" Rod's Onyx clowns.

My Rod's Onyx were purchased in early 05 and my H.magnifica was purchased in March of 06. My clowns eventually became a mated pair, but turned brown for about a year in 2007. They have since turned back to the beautiful deep black that Rod's Onyx clowns are known for.

They've been with that anemone since I got it. But for some reason around one year in with it, they lost the black and went brown...

One month with Ritteri before being a mated pair 04-06:

Brown phase while spawning, at 1.5 years with anemone in Sept 07:

Female in 09

Dec of last year, 2010

Yesterday....

Same anemone and clowns for the entire series of pics....diet has been pretty much the same the entire time. Uncooked shrimp pieces, uncooked scallop pieces, occasional mix of PE mysis, Hikari mysid, Rod's food, & spirolina enriched brine shrimp....

The female is now pretty much solid black....what isnt black is either white stripes or orange face & fins

One thing I realized while reading Minh's thread is that the anemone "sting" did not affect me the first year or two I had it, which happened to be the same window the clowns went through their weird brown phase. The tentacles were sticky and the feeding response was good, but it didnt burn me.

After that two year period, and currently, the anemone will burn me and leave a nasty welt for a couple of hours, to a few weeks depending on where I'm stung by it. Hands, couple of hours, inner arm while cleaning the tank, weeks.

I know that Carpets are notorious for being fish eaters and having a potent "Sting"/powerful nematocysts. It is also documented that clownfish in Carpet anemones go melanistic and it has been hypothesized that the stronger nematocysts cause the clowns to get darker.

Could it be that it took my H.magnifica about 2 years to get back to full health and develop the more powerful nematocysts that will burn me and caused the clowns to go melanistic again?

I can see the health of the anemone affecting the production of the powerful nematocysts. Unhealthy = less powerful nematocysts, healthy = ability to manufacture powerful nematocysts that can cause clownfish to darken up/ go melanistic.

However, the flip side of that theory is that an unhealthy anemone that has not been able to manufacture the powerful nematocysts, is some how able to influence the clowns into going lighter in color than they would be with a healthy anemone.

This doesnt seem to make any sort of sense at all unless its the presence of the powerful nematocysts that cause the clowns to darken, and without them present, the clowns color fades. When the anemone gets healthy and begins to produce the more powerful nematocysts, the constant exposure to the anemone causes the clowns to darken up again?

Obviously, I'm not a scientist. This is merely wild conjecture and hypothesis without any realy support.

But I know there are some wicked smart people here, and I would love to hear from them or anyone else who has experianced anything like this with their clowns, Rods Onyx or otherwise.

BTW, I'm not bashing Rod's clowns in anyway, or trying to imply that his Onyx clowns wont stay Onyx, (Rod's Mahogany clowns anyone???? Just kidding Rod).....I'm trying to be as factual as I can recall with my incident and state everything that I recall or have records of that might be relevant.

Any feedback, (even bluntly pointing out how foolish this theory really is) is welcome. I realize that I dont have water parameters posted for the time frames the pics were taken, but early on, and during the "Brown" phase, I didnt keep the records that I do now.

Nick

 

[maxxII]

I just realized I was mistaken. The male clown in the first pic is different than the male clown in the subsequent pictures.

I purchased both the female and the original male in early 05. I lost that male in early 06. He just disappeared, I'm assuming jumped out. I purchased the other male in July of 06.

The female is the same one I've had since the beginning.

Nick

 

[deangelr]

I do not think that the affect of H. Mag on perc has much to do with the health of the anemone. One, this happens with lots of anemones LTA, BTA, MAG, GIG.. Some anemones seem to encourage melanism while others seem to decrease it.. This can change intraspecifically depending on the individual.


My mag turned took away all the black on my percs as soon as I put in it the tank and I know it wasn't healthy for a while.

 

[deangelr]

I do not think that the affect of H. Mag on perc has much to do with the health of the anemone. One, this happens with lots of anemones LTA, BTA, MAG, GIG.. Some anemones seem to encourage melanism while others seem to decrease it.. This can change intraspecifically depending on the individual.


My mag turned took away all the black on my percs as soon as I put in it the tank and I know it wasn't healthy for a while.

 

[maxxII]

I do not think that the affect of H. Mag on perc has much to do with the health of the anemone. One, this happens with lots of anemones LTA, BTA, MAG, GIG.. Some anemones seem to encourage melanism while others seem to decrease it.. This can change intraspecifically depending on the individual.


My mag turned took away all the black on my percs as soon as I put in it the tank and I know it wasn't healthy for a while.

The sentance of your post essentially supports my hypothesis....

I understand that this happens with more anemone species than just H.magnifica. I should state that I'm interested in hearing about similar instances with all anemones. But my personal experiance with it and Minh's experiance with it occurred with H.magnifica and with Rod's Onyx clowns.

The purpose of the thread is to try to determine possible causes for color changes in clowns that are being hosted by anemones. Its widely reported that Carpets cause most clownfish to darken in color.

So what would cause clowns that are dark in color to begin with, to lighten in color? What would cause those same clowns to darken back up in time. Diet doesnt appear to be playing a role here since in both cases it hasnt changed.

Water quality?
Possibly. I did not keep records of my tank parameters during the time frame my clowns were in their brown phase. But, obviously the water quality was sufficient for the both the anemone and for the clowns to spawn.

Minh is a pretty accomplished aquarist and I'd be willing to bet his water quality is up to par....wont know for sure until he posts here.

What do suppose could have caused the clowns to go through the color change as they did?

Nick

 

[OrionN]

I think this is an interesting hypothesis. It may very well be correct. I will keep on observing this and add any observation I can. It seem to me the anemone species that have the strongest sting does not cause loss of color, while species that does not have a strong sting may or may not cause lost of color.
One hole in this hypothesis is that Percula clowns without anemone tend to dark instead of light. Form this obsevation, I concluded that it is the anemone is what cause the clown to loose color, not certain anemone cause Percula to darken.

 

[OrionN]

Regarding water quality. I stick to my schedule water changes add three parts additive (Mg, CaCl and Carbonate) and hardly measure anything anymore other than Ca, Mag and Alkalinity. I don't have algae problem and corals and clams doing well. All are hard coral mostly SPS and and Xenia. I have all the species of Tridacna clams short the T. gigas. I have no coral or clams death for years. The tank this Magnifica and clowns is a 30 inches cube, about 100 gallon. Light with 250 W DE MH and have 4 Koralia 4 for water movement. It is a tank with about 4 inches mix sand bed and witha 40 g sump. Temperature stable between 80 degree (heater turn on) and may get up to 82 on hot days. In the winter is stable at 80 degree. In the summer between 80 night and 82 day temperature when the light is on (cool by fan). I use continuous top off with dosing pump. Ca, Mag and Carbonate added weekly. I will see if I can measure the levels today. I don't think I have any test kit that is not out of date for phos or nitrates at this time.

Overall, I think the tank is healthy at this time and the Red Mag have been in it for ?7-8 weeks. Fish are disease free, and fat include Powder Blue tang and Leopard Wrasse with the Onyx pair. Tank set up for 2 years, rock and sand from an old system. I got pest aptasia anemones in this tank.

 

[syrinx]

Generally black is created by genetics- the only thing I know that can alter the level of melanine after the genetics establish its potential, is uv light. If the anemones sting had anything to do with it- I would think that the thicker slime coat would block more UV and thus more likely make the fish lighten. There is the possibility that the black could bleach if the slime coat was thin- but that is contrary to the nature of black. However due to the fact that there is still orange pigments beneath the black the fish is not truely melanistic-nor anetheristic, and the black may actually be caused by a genetic fault that causes it to be oversensitive to UV- and thus "over tan". One must remember all these fancy clowns are really just culls-no different from fancy goldfish- and they will develop more and more weaknesses as generations go on. Instead of water quality having anything to do with it- were there any lighting changes?

 

[maxxII]

Not other than the typical bulb replacement schedule of my dual 250 watt bulbs over the reef.

How do you explain the documented cases of clownfish going darker and in many cases black after being kept with a carpet anemone?

The Merten's Carpet Anemone is a clown hosting anemone, known to host up to 12 different clown fish species. It has also been known to associate with crustaceans including the Porcelain Crab Neopetrolisthes ohshimai. An interesting fact is that three of these clownfish; the Clark's Clown fish Amphiprion clarkii, Orange-fin Clownfish A. chrysopterus and the Three-Band Clownfish, A. tricinctus will be black (melanistic) when hosted by this anemone.

From here: http://animal-world.com/Aquarium-Coral-Reefs/Mertens-Carpet-Anemone

Anemone association is a common reason as top why there are melanistic fishes and often the darker color anemones are associated with melanistic fishes. However, in A.clarkii and A.polymnus melanistic fishes are also found in green S.mertensii and S.haddoni and other colors.

From here: http://www.squidoo.com/anemonefish

AMPHIPRION CHRYSOPTERUS

Melanistic variation: Fish living with Stichodactyla mertensii generally have a blackish ground colour, whereas males and juveniles that occupy Heteractis crispa are brown. Only orange or brown juveniles are found with H. aurora.

From here:
http://www.nhm.ku.edu/inverts/ebooks/ch2.html#colour

Entire book/article: http://www.nhm.ku.edu/inverts/ebooks/intro.html

From same link as above:

Clark's Anemonefish
Melanistic variation: Fish that live with Stichodactyla mertensii are frequently black except for pale snout, white bars, and yellow or white tail.

From same link as above:

AMPHIPRION PERCULA
Melanistic variation: Limited melanism is evident in fish that live with anemones of the genus Stichodactyla: the margin around the white bars is deep black, and, in some specimens, considerably expanded.

Nick

 

[OrionN]

I took a lot of exceptions in what expressed by syrinx above

Generally black is created by genetics- the only thing I know that can alter the level of melanine after the genetics establish its potential, is uv light....I would think that the thicker slime coat would block more UV and thus more likely make the fish lighten.

While the bit about genetics is true, the part about UV and it's alteration of melanine is true for land base animal like human, I am not so sure that it is true for clown fish. The UV penetration of salt water is minimal. The black color in a A. percula clown fish is not for UV protection like darken of skin in human.

However due to the fact that there is still orange pigments beneath the black the fish is not truely melanistic-nor anetheristic, and the black may actually be caused by a genetic fault that causes it to be oversensitive to UV- and thus "over tan".

Again, black of the clownfish have nothing to do with tanning and UV protection at all.

One must remember all these fancy clowns are really just culls-no different from fancy goldfish- and they will develop more and more weaknesses as generations go on.

I really take exception to this. By Onyx is not poor genetically fish and not just fish the should be culled.
It is a fact that this happen with wild caught A. percula too not just tank raised fish. I believe that many authors who observed clown fish in the wild notice that A. percula hosted by S. gigantea, and S. mertensii tend to be darker on the average than those that hosted by H. magnifica. I do not think that there was a study to document this observation but I have read it over and over. It may be true that one or two sources that wrote this and everybody else just parrot it over and over. I know that Delbeek and Sprung wrote this in their book TRA.

Instead of water quality having anything to do with it- were there any lighting changes?

I use the same set-up and change my light bulb infrequently, about every 2 years or so. However, the observation that A. percula may loose black color with H. magnifica (one of the natural host), E. quadricolor, M. doreensis is well know and well documented for us A. percula and anemone keeper that we can safely say that light intensity, and change of water condition (other than way out of the norm) surely does not have anything to do wit it, IMO


IMO, you missed the boat all together due to your assumption that the dark coloration of A. percula is for UV protection

 

[syrinx]

No problem- just having fun with wild hypothosis- and you are correct on UV penetration. I was thinking high wattage halides and clowns a few inches below- not the natural phenomena- which i was unaware of in nature. As I said though the genetics are in question with the layering of color and its changable nature. It is not true melanistic.

 

[phender]

I have a pair of percs that are very onyx(including black dorsal) when they are in a S. gigantea or with no anemone at all. However, when being hosted by BTAs or H. crispa their black fades to a brown. I like the strength of sting hypothesis, but that doesn't explain why they get their black back without an anemone.
Perhaps the anemones with a weaker sting produce something unique in their slime that affects the fish's pigment.

FWIW, although the OP's percs have regained their black in their H. magnifica, I have never seen a wild pic of onyx percs in a mag. In every pic of wild onyx percs, they have been in S. gigantea. An interesting note.... whereas the Solomon Is./PNG areas are where most of the onyx percs come from, that area also produces percs that have the least amount of black that I have ever seen.

 

[Toddrtrex]

About the "culls" and these being fancy fish...

Well, it happened with my pair, and they are wild caught -- S. I.

They lost their black while being hosted by an M. doreensis. I can't say for certain that them being hosted by an S. haddoni returned the black, or if it was just the removal of the M. doreensis --- there was (( honestly )) 30 seconds between being hosted by each.

They (( or I should say the male, since the female jumped last week when I forgot to put the egg crate back on )) have been without an anemone for about 6 months now, and the black levels have been pretty much the same. If there has been any change, it would be more black.

 

[maxxII]

Okay,

So food is not the issue.
Percs may go from black without an anemone, to being light brown/less black with some anemones.
Percs may go back to more black/Onyx when removed from an anemone
Percs may go back to more black/Onyx when reintroduced to Pacific Stichodactyla anemones
My percs went from black to light brown, back to black with a 2 year period with my H.magnifica anemone.
Pacific Stichodactyla anemones and H.magnifica anemones have the strongest "sting"/nematocysts of all the clownfish hosting anemones.

That about summerize things thus far?

Nick

 

[anemone fan]

You getting 'burnt' after 2 years of nematocyst exposure is actually you developing a sensitivity to the toxins in the nematocysts. Same thing happens with poison ivy and other toxins we are exposed to over time. Ever 'develop an allergy'?

Melanism is poorly understood, but probably doesn't have to do with 'strength' of nematocysts. Almost all the zooxanthellate fish-hosting sea anemones have the same compliment and size of nematocysts.

 

[maxxII]

You getting 'burnt' after 2 years of nematocyst exposure is actually you developing a sensitivity to the toxins in the nematocysts. Same thing happens with poison ivy and other toxins we are exposed to over time. Ever 'develop an allergy'?

Melanism is poorly understood, but probably doesn't have to do with 'strength' of nematocysts. Almost all the zooxanthellate fish-hosting sea anemones have the same compliment and size of nematocysts.

Fair enough statement. Yes, I've developed allergies over the years.

Question though:

I have two H.magnifica anemones. The brown based, yellow tipped one in the pictures has been with me since 03-10-2006. This is the one that raises welts and causes "burns" when I make contact with the tentacles.

The other H.magnifica has only been with me for a year, and came in seriously under the weather...(for pics and more on it, visit this thread: Heteractis Magnifica - Tell me some success stories)

This is the same species of anemone, yet I get no allergic response (currently) when touching the tentacles or being brushed by them. They are sticky, and the anemone is healthy now, but I get no burning sensation like I do with the yellow tipped anemone, no raised welts, basically no allergic reaction.

If "Almost all the zooxanthellate fish-hosting sea anemones have the same compliment and size of nematocysts", then its probably safe to assume that members of the same species would have same chemical make up and composition of nemtocysts?

And since the short version of an allergic reaction in humans is the protein receptor sites on the cells binding the protein, (nematocyst in this case) that the body has "decided" is something that is foreign and needs to be removed and dealt with, (allergic reaction...please dont make me go back downstairs and dig up my old A&P, and EMS textbooks so that I can get more detailed...I suspect you already know this information and its late for me)...

Wouldnt I have the same allergic reaction when I touch the newer purple based/tipped H.magnifica anemone as I do I when I touch the yellow tipped, brown based H.magnifica anemone?

I dont get the allergic reaction when I touch the H.crispa anemone that's been in my care for the past 4 something years.

I dont get the allergic reaction when I touch the two E.quadricolor anemones I've had for over a year.

I think its fair to assume that the E.quadricolor and the H.crispa anemones have a different chemical composition to their nematocysts, since they are different anemones, and I dont get the allergic reaction to them.

However, I highly doubt that the "new" H.magnifica has a different chemical composition, (therefore different proteins which would bond to different protein receptors on the cells, thereby NOT elliciting an allergic reaction), than the "old" one.

I am allergic to Urushiol which is the toxin/allergen found in Poison Ivy.
When I touch poison oak or poison sumac, I get the same reaction as if I touched poison ivy. The urushiol is what causes that reaction. What is it in the nematocysts of the yellow tipped H.magnifica that causes me to have an allergic reaction? Why is that missing in the other H.magnifica, and why/how is that missing from the other anemones I keep as well?

I freely admit I'm neither a scientist, nor a marine biologist.

I could be wrong, which is why I'm trying to see what others who are more knowledgeable think and see where the discussion takes us.

Thanks for joining in the discussion.

Nick

 

[Toddrtrex]

....
Melanism is poorly understood, but probably doesn't have to do with 'strength' of nematocysts. Almost all the zooxanthellate fish-hosting sea anemones have the same compliment and size of nematocysts.

Link?

From my understanding, Daphne Gail Fautin states differently,

size of nematocysts of a species may vary geographically and with size of individual

From the abstract, http://www.nhm.ku.edu/inverts/pdf/TOXCON3456.pdf



Plus, as someone who has been stung by an E. quadricolor and than an S. haddoni, I say that there is a huge difference.

 

[maxxII]

Love the late night light reading material Todd.

Thanks....

Nick

 

[OrionN]

Because, IME, A. percula coloration is the same when they are with the Carpets or without anemone, and light when they are with some Magnifica or some BTA. I think it is the anemone that cause lighter color. IMO, it is not the other way around (which is some anemone cause A. percula to turn dark)

In the future, I need to remove my Magnifica from the quarantine tank. I will try to observe how long it take for my clowns return to normal (stay in the quarantine tank that will be Magnifica-less)

 

[OrionN]

BTW, in case anybody interested, for feeding I use a combination of OSI Marine Aquarium Flakes, Cyclop-eese flakes, Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef flakes and Tetra Marine Salt water flakes. I get 6-7 Oz of each and Mix them . My fish love this mixture. I feed them frozen food about once a week in addition to this. All the fish get the same diet. I have use this for at least the last 2 years.