Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?"

[wrassie86]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6651071#post6651071 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rip Current
What about replacing the bio balls in a wet dry with rubble?
With a slow flow, and rubble the right size and porosity.

just a thought...........

I tried this a couple years ago,the end result was rising nitrate.Maybe if the rubble would have been sumerged it would have been different.But no different than bioballs.

On another note the 120g i am setting up will be a rubble bottom from the start.But only the front half for now.

 

[engagg]

How about a rubble refegium? Anyone tried one? Could be a great place to grow some critters.

 

[rustybucket145]

I think I will throw some in my refugium tonight and see what happens

 

[castorpollux]

i use rubble refugiums, I was planning on trying GARF grunge on my next tank, its all rubble from live rock stations from all over the world, i haven't tried it nor do i know anyone who has but I guess I will be the guinea pig.

i used to mix aragonite into my live sand to make it act as somewhat of an anchor in my high aquariums so thats another thought with high calcium your sand will turn somewhat solid and act as a great bed for bacteria.

 

[castorpollux]

i use rubble refugiums, I was planning on trying GARF grunge on my next tank, its all rubble from live rock stations from all over the world, i haven't tried it nor do i know anyone who has but I guess I will be the guinea pig.

i used to mix aragonite into my live sand to make it act as somewhat of an anchor in my high aquariums so thats another thought with high calcium your sand will turn somewhat solid and act as a great bed for bacteria.

 

[barryhc]

DOH ! !

Read the last page of this thread, for an "intro" on Garf.

> Barry

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6704087#post6704087 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by castorpollux
i used to mix aragonite into my live sand to make it act as somewhat of an anchor in my high aquariums so thats another thought with high calcium your sand will turn somewhat solid and act as a great bed for bacteria.

I've been doing everything I can to avoid any clumping, and you want to make the bed more solid for bacteria ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? :bigeyes:

Are you serious ?

> Barry :beachbum:

 

[algaeguy]

rustybucket- do share your experiences with your rubble zone. I think that you'll find that the "usual" detritivorous fishes and inverts will probably do the job. I find my Centropyge angel, Tang, Blennies and my wrasses spend a great deal of time picking around in the rubble zone.

I think that the detritus issue is very important, but we might be overly paranoid about detritus in the hobby. Sure, excesses are problematic, but I'm hypothesizing that some detritus is beneficial for the overall biodiversity of the tank. Overall good husbandry is the ticket here, like in any system.

I think that it's safe to say that rubble bottoms are not about scrupulously clean conditions like barebottom systems afford. They are specifically geared towards creating biodiversity and fostering more natural foraging behaviours in fishes. It's very cool seeing the fishes pick among the rubble (and sand, if you have it).

It's really cool to see pods and other creatures running around in the rubble, too!

Keep sharing!

Scott

 

[BrianPlankis]

Well, my big tank is still 2-5 years away, but I've already started planning it. I've been wanting to do something other than DSB and don't like the look of BB or starboard. This looks like the perfect solution for me!

It will most likely be an in-wall tank with two sides exposed to viewing. I do want to keep some pearly headed jawfish in the big tank, so I will use acrylic to form a small area on the lower traffic side of the tank for them to dig their burrows in a small DSB.

I would like to avoid the RUGF, instead I plan on placing a large piece of eggcrate on top of 2" pieces of PVC holding it off the bottom and evenly distributing the weight. The eggcrate will stop short of the front/side glass by about 6-8" and the remaining area between the eggcrate and glass will be filled by 3-4" of rubble. LR will be stacked on top of the eggcrate.

Basically I'm hoping it will look like the very edge of a reef, with the rubble zone giving way to the sand in one corner of the tank with the jawfish popping up from time to time I will probably put one piece of LR overhanging the sand (but not resting on it) to make the jawfish happier and block high flow from hitting the sand.

The main circulation for the tank will probably be Tunze or the new Vortech pumps. I was thinking of having one Vortech on the bottom glass and surrounding it with larger pieces of LR so it will be hidden from view but it would produce a jet of water going straight up (obviously not too hard to spray my lights).

Any thoughts on how to improve this design?

I also would like to add how "nice" this thread is, it is rare to have such a non-flaming thread and I like to read this type of thread

Brian

 

[barryhc]

Good thoughts Brian. Consider putting two outlets from either 2 pumps that alternate by timers etc. , or 2 outlets from an OceansMotion valve that extend under the egg crate with "90's", and point not quite at each other from opposite ends of your under crate space.
This will give you an upwelling wave action, and a fairly well cleaned bottom space as well. The wave action will be adequate for most of your animals ( maybe 2/3 ), and make the remaining more specialized flow requirements for certain animals easier to accomplish.

> Barry

 

[Konadog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6712633#post6712633 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CirolanidHunter
... I was thinking of having one Vortech on the bottom glass and surrounding it with larger pieces of LR so it will be hidden from view but it would produce a jet of water going straight up (obviously not too hard to spray my lights).

Brian, I am currently trying to get a Beta Tester to do this for me. I plan on doing the same thing. I have tested this idea a year ago using a SEIO, with great results. I am setting up my large tank this weekend and had to get measurements as to what size holes to cut in the stand top and starboard so that I can try this idea when they become available. My thoughts are since these pumps can run on a battery backup, is that they will create great surface exchange when the tank is down during short power interruptions.

 

[rustybucket145]

Well two days ago I added some rubble (shells of various shapes and sizes) mostly the size ranging from Silver Dollar to Dime. I added the rubble on top of my DSB in my Refugium/Propagation tank. I only added the rubble to a front corner of the tank and only about two cups of it. Within a day I noticed quite large population of copepods congragating around the rubble pile and on the glass around it as well. So it seems to be doing its job.

I should state that I have a tremendous population of pods established already but they do seem to be more prolific around the rubble zone. I even watched several Mating rituals between the pods in this area. There were also a couple of Amiphods spotted in this rubble this morning.

 

[jumpincactus]

I am under the understanding that a layer of live sand and some peices of rubble are ok but due to the complexity of cleaning the rubble it is best to just keep the rubble to a few various places for looks.

As for having a bare bottom or using live sand, some industry pros seem to think if you are going to use live sand 1-3" is best. They state that with a 1-3" layer it actually aids in water quality as the sand develops a layer of de-nitrifying bacteria. The key is to use good circulation to keep the sands top layer well oxygenated.

The trick they say to keep the sand clean are burrowing type fish such as gobes. wrasses, etc. Snails are also great and some brittle star fish are highly recomended.

 

[rsteagall]

jumpincactus, whats being discussed is learning to live with ditritus build up in a rubble zone letting whatever creatures that may live there take care of the rest. Having a rubble zone would require or request no cleanup. Due to the size of the rubble, ditritus should easily fall to the glass.

-Ryan

 

[Tunguska]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6721088#post6721088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jumpincactus
I am under the understanding that a layer of live sand and some peices of rubble are ok but due to the complexity of cleaning the rubble it is best to just keep the rubble to a few various places for looks.

As for having a bare bottom or using live sand, some industry pros seem to think if you are going to use live sand 1-3" is best. They state that with a 1-3" layer it actually aids in water quality as the sand develops a layer of de-nitrifying bacteria. The key is to use good circulation to keep the sands top layer well oxygenated.

The trick they say to keep the sand clean are burrowing type fish such as gobes. wrasses, etc. Snails are also great and some brittle star fish are highly recomended.

Well, that's the general idea for keeping a SSB, but we're thinking outside the box here!
A 1-3" depth will not, however, cause denitrification, at least not in any measureable sense. Denitrification occurs in areas where there is a general lack of oxygen, which is why the depth of sand (4"+) in a DSB is necessary.

It seems to be the general consensus here that the small amount of detritus that tends to collect in rubble piles are actually somewhat desireable as a food source to pods and other micro-organisms.

 

[DesertBandits]

please read the whole thread before posting, and notice you are in the advanced area. 1-3in sand sounds like good beginner advice to keep you away from problems, but to say that that is the only way to have a successful reef is essentialy a mythology.

This is one of the most cutting edge ideas in reefkeeping, even thougth its been going on for about 30 years (Paul B's tank). The fact is that this is a totally different system from ssb, dsb,and bb. The same rules for those systems don't apply to this. Its already been proven to work, and proven to not have a harmful detrius build up even in the extreme long term.

There are many ways to set up a successful reef tank. The virtue of this method seems to be that it breeds large amounts of micro fauna, as well as its unique aesthetic. Realize that the advance forum is about what is outside the box.

 

[algaeguy]

Let's not be too hard on jumpincactus. His observations are consistent with contemporary thought on reefkeeping, but they may or may not be hard and fast "rules". I think general husbandry and maintenance procedures can assure some degree of success with most any technique. Of course, this thread is about pushing the "state of the art" just a bit.

As this is sort of a "brainstorming session" on an alternative methodology, lets embrace all of the observations everyone makes, even though they may seem obvious. I think that we can take something from almost everything that has been presented so far!

I'm glad that we seem to be in agreement about the detritus issue. I still wish there was some study somewhere analyzing exactly what is in the detritus that accumulates (or does not accumulate, as the case may be) within our systems. I do think it might be time to take the "detritus boogyman" out in the town square to pelt him with a few stones (or rubble, as the case may be!).

I've read about Peter Wilkens and his success in keeping Dendronepthia and other hard-to-keep corals by regularly stirring his sandbed to liberate organics. I'm suret hat in a rubble bottom, similar stuff is found, but may be it may utilized differently by the animals that reside within the rubble zone.

I know a lot of the anti-detritus people are concerned about phosphates accumulating in their systems, but I still wonder about the effects of small accumulations of detritus in cryptic areas. Are they really all that bad? Don't get me wrong- I'm not advocating lax maintenance, but I do proffer that accepting and working WITH some of the natural processes that occur in our systems, such as detritus production, can actually help us embrace a more complete biotope. Perhaps detritus doesn't have to be exported entirely through physical removal to be rendered harmless...perhaps it merely needs to be more fully utilized.

Sure, there may be localized phosphate sources that could contribute to some algae growth, but I suspect that a good balance of detritivorous animals can help utilize this material and further break it down without jeapordizing water quality. The fact that Paul has been able to maintain an all rubble bottom system successfully for three decades attests to not only his husbandry skills, but the potentially minimal bad effects of detritus on water quality.

Those of us that are using all-rubble bottoms or rubble zones along with other substrates should definitely document the water parameters within our systems, particularly the pH, phosphate and nitrate levels that interest us so much. If we can see long-term positive results from several systems of these types, we may have at least some anecdotal evidence that the concept works just fine in the long term, and is a valid alternative methodology, not just an experiment!

Anyways- I can't tell you how proud I am of each and every reefer who has stopped by to share his or her thoughts on this thread! Together, we're really looking into some neat ideas with an open mind and a common interest!

Don't be shy! Keep sharing and putting those ideas out there! Together, we are truly accomplishing what RC was designed for- the discussion and dissemination of reefkeeping methods for the benefit of all!

Thanks- keep it rollin'!

Scott

 

[rsteagall]

speaking of keeping it going, anyone have pictures yet of their rubble zone or even deep rubble zone? Post a few pics if you do. Visually, I'm interested in seeing what some of you have done.

 

[Paul B]

I've read about Peter Wilkens and his success in keeping Dendronepthia and other hard-to-keep corals by regularly stirring his sandbed to liberate organics. I'm sure that in a rubble bottom, similar stuff is found, but may be it may utilized differently by the animals that reside within the rubble zone.

I also do this because in any system, no matter what you do there will be detritus, Is that a bad thing? No. I think too much emphasis is put on detritus removal to the point of fanatacism. Detritus has a few stages, I'm sure as soon as it is formed when it is still made from fish waste and dead bacteria it has some impact on the water, but very soon, within hours I would assume, it becomes more or less inert. Organic material can not last long in a warm wet envirnment full of bacteria.
I have heard that it is a nutrient trap, I don't see how.
I do not see any detritus in my tank but if I stir it, I will see a lot of it. My nitrates are zero, I don't know what my phosphate is or anything else because I can tell by experience that whatever it is, it is not detrimental.

We should sweep our floors and also remove detritus but lets not get crazy. You would be very surprised if you saw what was growing in your rock. I clean my rock by using a diatom filter with a restriction on the outflow hose, I blow across the rocks and the amount of "stuff" that comes out of some of those holes is amazing. If this was affecting water quality, I would have a sewer.

One more thing, I lifter my UG filter plates about 18 months ago to see what was under there, That was the first time I did that in 25 years. If detritus was that dangerous, should anything live in that tank?
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[jnowell]

Great stuff Paul!

I can't speak for 30 years of success over here. But after reading this thread right before I re-aquascaped my tank for seahorses, I decided to give a rubble zone a go. SH's eat pods, and the 58g tank was previously used for coral propagation, so it's been a predator free zone for them for about 2 years. Lot's O pods are there to say the least.

Here's my interesting observation before the re-arrangement. This tank rarely if ever got fed anything, maybe a little phytoplankton (live home grown nannochloropsis occulata). This only happened every few weeks at best when I thought about it, or had some extra from my clownfish breeding setup.

When I tore it down, there was TONS of detritus, everywhere, under everything I moved, inside and on top of everything I touched. This tank has had good husbandry, and ALL parameters were stable the entire two years. The corals grew very well, and I never lost an animal (outside of a few snails to the hermit crabs). So, a two year old, well maintained, healthy tank that was rarely fed anything, accumulated a good amount of detritus on it's own, and stayed very healthy.

Next, I re-did the tank for seahorses. Now I have a low flow tank with a rubble zone...uh oh, I'm breaking all the rules here! Well, it's be runnning for several weeks now, so I decided to have a look around the rubble zone and stir things up a bit. Almost every pod in the tank was in the RZ, and the detritus was undetectable, the water really didn't even get cloudy. I have been feeding the tank pretty heavy to prepare it for the bio load of 6 seahorses, and there is nothing but pods and hermits in there there to eat the food. (just added two peppermint shrimp, but they were too late to have any effect).

Before anyone says it, I realize a few weeks is nothing, but the flow is set up so that it should blow any extra junk into the rubble pile. The pods seem to be more prolific in there too, I would occasionally see smaller amphipods running around, but not that often. Last night I saw probably 20-25 "newborns" in one short sitting. Could be a coincidence, but I don't think so.

I'll put up some pics tonight of the rubble zone, it's basically just a continuation of the rock wall, about 6-8" out on top of the sand bed (which is 2"). I'll keep coming back with updates periodically, and everyone else should do the same. Paul has already proven the long term viability of such of a system, but it would be cool to see and hear about everyone elses experience.

For what it's worth, it looks really nice, and is a fun area to watch. Many tiny brittle stars, bristle worms, pods, and mysis shrimp cruising around everywhere. Most of those creatures, and most of the rubble, came from GARF grunge that was added about 1 year ago.

What a thread Scott, good job!

Jason