Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?"
- Thread starter algaeguy
- Start date
algaeguy
Over-The-Top- Reef Geek
Although Whaledriver is right about my original concept for this thread, I must say that it is really cool to hear all of the neat ideas that are coming out concerning the use of "alternative" substrate materials and the fascinating utility of the UGF! It's neat to hear some "outside-the box" thinking going on here, besides just the usual BB vs. DSB wars!
However, my interest is with the larger rubble pieces. I like what BOTR is doing with the golf ball sized rubble. That's really neat. If I wasn't such an incompetent photgrapher/photo poster, I'd get more shots out here. I'd like to see some pics from everyone else's rubble bottom systems to see where we are all going with this idea.
sradmin and barryhc are discussing a neat idea with an isolated sandbed...Possibly the best of both worlds?
I'm particularly interested in the "larger rubble" users, though. In particular, what types of creatures are you using as adedicted "clean up crew"? Or, are you using any at all? I've found that my wrasses and blennies really seem to enjoy poking around in the rubble. I think I will ultimately add a Ctenochatus Tang of some sort to help pick at the rubble area to assist in controlling any nuisance algae or detritus.
BOTR, I too felt that I would really heavily siphon the rubble weekly, but I've found very little to actually remove in there! I think with the right fish population, and the resulting macrofauna residing in there, heavy siphoning may not be all that critical. I'll bet a lot of the material within the detritus is being utlized somewhere as a food source.
Out of sheer curiosity, I have taking phosphate tests from my water both in the open area of the tank, and even beneath some of the gaps in the rubble zone, and my Deltec/Merck kit yields undetectible phosphate and I'm also getting undetectible nitrate readings.
I was a bit surprised, frankly, as I initially thought that denitrification would be limited in such a system and nitrate levels would creep up...Guess I was wrong about that one! Overall, stability in this system has been remarkable...Have other rubble bottom users experienced similar stability? I guess it all boils down to husbandry, but it is a bit interesting to see such an alternative methodology netting positive results!
I do think that just_dave's tank was a great example of a rubble bottom as I've visualized it, but there are lots of cool ways to go.
Keep the ideas flowing, guys!
Scott
However, my interest is with the larger rubble pieces. I like what BOTR is doing with the golf ball sized rubble. That's really neat. If I wasn't such an incompetent photgrapher/photo poster, I'd get more shots out here. I'd like to see some pics from everyone else's rubble bottom systems to see where we are all going with this idea.
sradmin and barryhc are discussing a neat idea with an isolated sandbed...Possibly the best of both worlds?
I'm particularly interested in the "larger rubble" users, though. In particular, what types of creatures are you using as adedicted "clean up crew"? Or, are you using any at all? I've found that my wrasses and blennies really seem to enjoy poking around in the rubble. I think I will ultimately add a Ctenochatus Tang of some sort to help pick at the rubble area to assist in controlling any nuisance algae or detritus.
BOTR, I too felt that I would really heavily siphon the rubble weekly, but I've found very little to actually remove in there! I think with the right fish population, and the resulting macrofauna residing in there, heavy siphoning may not be all that critical. I'll bet a lot of the material within the detritus is being utlized somewhere as a food source.
Out of sheer curiosity, I have taking phosphate tests from my water both in the open area of the tank, and even beneath some of the gaps in the rubble zone, and my Deltec/Merck kit yields undetectible phosphate and I'm also getting undetectible nitrate readings.
I was a bit surprised, frankly, as I initially thought that denitrification would be limited in such a system and nitrate levels would creep up...Guess I was wrong about that one! Overall, stability in this system has been remarkable...Have other rubble bottom users experienced similar stability? I guess it all boils down to husbandry, but it is a bit interesting to see such an alternative methodology netting positive results!
I do think that just_dave's tank was a great example of a rubble bottom as I've visualized it, but there are lots of cool ways to go.
Keep the ideas flowing, guys!
Scott
Scott, I'm glad you started this thread as I have been wondering what to do with my next tank. I find this "rubble bottom" very interesting. I don't want a sand bed, and I'm not sold on the look of a BB tank. I have been thinking shallow sand bed, but like this rubble idea. I'm wondering what the pod population must be in a tank like this. This might be one of the reasons you don't find much detritus buildup.
algaeguy
Over-The-Top- Reef Geek
It really started as a result of horror stories I've heard about dandbeds blowing all over in super high flow tanks, and the desire to try something just totally different.
I think that barebottom is a very viable concept, but my lousy aquascaping skills keep me from assembling an attractive BB tank! I find sandbeds fascinating, but I think the "rubble" idea is more visually interesting.
I think the fisrt examples I've seen of cool "rubble systems" were in the Long Beach Aquarium of The Pacific about 6 or7 years ago. They had a large tank with tons of broken Tonga branch on the bottom, and lots of wrasses and blennies swimming and foraging in and out...I dug it, and vowed to try that one day!
Besides, one day this might be a cool way to support a breeding group of Centropyge hotumatua, if I can ever locate/afford some! LOL!
I say go for it, Ken!
Scott
I think that barebottom is a very viable concept, but my lousy aquascaping skills keep me from assembling an attractive BB tank! I find sandbeds fascinating, but I think the "rubble" idea is more visually interesting.
I think the fisrt examples I've seen of cool "rubble systems" were in the Long Beach Aquarium of The Pacific about 6 or7 years ago. They had a large tank with tons of broken Tonga branch on the bottom, and lots of wrasses and blennies swimming and foraging in and out...I dug it, and vowed to try that one day!
Besides, one day this might be a cool way to support a breeding group of Centropyge hotumatua, if I can ever locate/afford some! LOL!
I say go for it, Ken!
Scott
Scott, the LB Aquarium still has that tank. Most of the branch rock is at the front 6 feet of the tank. It's pretty cool.
I've been following a bunch of thread on aquascaping to figure out what I'm going to do, and with what rock. Another thing about a rubble bottom is that you can suspend your main rock using rubble to improve water flow around the main structure. I still like the pillars that Pierce had in his 150.
I've been following a bunch of thread on aquascaping to figure out what I'm going to do, and with what rock. Another thing about a rubble bottom is that you can suspend your main rock using rubble to improve water flow around the main structure. I still like the pillars that Pierce had in his 150.
algaeguy
Over-The-Top- Reef Geek
Yep- I haven't seen that tank ina couple of years- I'm overdue to visit LBAOP this year!
I like the idea of "pillars" around a rubble area, too- sounds nice!
I've also been obsessing about a seagrass tank lately, but that's another subject for another thread! I think I just need a bunch of tanks to try all of my wacky ideas!
I'm sure that your new tank will be awesome!
Scott
I like the idea of "pillars" around a rubble area, too- sounds nice!
I've also been obsessing about a seagrass tank lately, but that's another subject for another thread! I think I just need a bunch of tanks to try all of my wacky ideas!
I'm sure that your new tank will be awesome!
Scott
Sea grass?? We need to find Joe Kelly and bring him back into the hobby. His tank with sea grass was awesome.
I hope my new tank will turn out nice. You can only read so much before you just need to jump in and do something. I've only been tank-less for 2 months and it's driving me crazy!!!
I hope my new tank will turn out nice. You can only read so much before you just need to jump in and do something. I've only been tank-less for 2 months and it's driving me crazy!!!
I think the most interesting thing about this thread, is that it is covering a lot of territiry, and I mean a REALLY LOT OF TERRITORY, which borders on BB, and DSB, and RUGF, and "zonated" areas in the tank, and many more areas of possible setups, and it is doing so in a particularly civilized, and "nondebative" manner.
I am very impressed with "all of you", and all the ideas.
This is the way that RC should operate, and I feel very lucky to participate.
Thanks to all of you. > barryhc
I am very impressed with "all of you", and all the ideas.
This is the way that RC should operate, and I feel very lucky to participate.
Thanks to all of you. > barryhc
algaeguy
Over-The-Top- Reef Geek
After seeing another thread on rock cooking and a "how to go DSB" thread starting up, maybe us crazy rubble bottom, out-of-the-box thinkers are on to something. Just another neat way to keep a reef...not the best...not the worst- just a different and interesting method!
Ken- I must say that I do notice a lot of interesting fauna in the rubble zone. My wrasses, blennies, and Centropyge angel spend a lot of time foraging in this zone, which means there certainly is some stuff in there!
I do wonder if a DSB has more creatures residing within it, however. I suppose that you can expect different types of creatures in different grades of media. I could imagine a well established rubble zone system being an ideal home for Mandarins or even Pipefishes. I think that the potential for fantastic biodiversity is fantastic in rubble systems.
Again, I continue to be pleasantly surprised by the chemical stability of this system. Has anyone else been pleasantly surprised by this in their tanks?
Keep the sharing up, guys...Some great ideas here!
Scott
Ken- I must say that I do notice a lot of interesting fauna in the rubble zone. My wrasses, blennies, and Centropyge angel spend a lot of time foraging in this zone, which means there certainly is some stuff in there!
I do wonder if a DSB has more creatures residing within it, however. I suppose that you can expect different types of creatures in different grades of media. I could imagine a well established rubble zone system being an ideal home for Mandarins or even Pipefishes. I think that the potential for fantastic biodiversity is fantastic in rubble systems.
Again, I continue to be pleasantly surprised by the chemical stability of this system. Has anyone else been pleasantly surprised by this in their tanks?
Keep the sharing up, guys...Some great ideas here!
Scott
There seem to be many types of "substrate" that can, and have, been used with success, and to the benefit of the reef animals.
I'm wondering if more than one "type" can be used in the same aquarium, where several "zones" might be available for different animals to utilze for their benefit, and if these different "substrate zones" might give us a greater variety of the infauna as well.
I suppose if three different substrate-zone types were used, it might be looked on as just three times as much work, or trouble, or complexity.
Just thinking out loud.
> barryhc
I'm wondering if more than one "type" can be used in the same aquarium, where several "zones" might be available for different animals to utilze for their benefit, and if these different "substrate zones" might give us a greater variety of the infauna as well.
I suppose if three different substrate-zone types were used, it might be looked on as just three times as much work, or trouble, or complexity.
Just thinking out loud.
> barryhc
miatawnt2b
New member
I am very interested in an out of the box approach for my next tank (a 90 RR). I am torn between a few different approaches being plenum wasting, rubble bottom, and DSB in a bucket. I would like high flow in this new setup, but I like the plenum wasting option which poses a few problems with sandstorms and such. I like denitrating ablities of a DSB however, and was wondering if the rubble bottom has similar denitrating abilities? Would someone be able to comment?
Thanks,
-J
Thanks,
-J
algaeguy
Over-The-Top- Reef Geek
miatawnt2b,
I can only speak from my experience, but I have not had any detectible nitrate at all since my system was set up in March of last year...I am certain that soem denitrification takes place within the rocks in the system, and I suppose rubble has the same attributes. Good husbandry and a productive skimmer can't hurt, either!
barryhc- I, too was wondering about differnt "zones" in the same system. For example, a rublle zone over 2/3 of the tank, with a DSB/seagrass area over the rest...Has anyone tried a "mutlizone" approach?
Scott
I can only speak from my experience, but I have not had any detectible nitrate at all since my system was set up in March of last year...I am certain that soem denitrification takes place within the rocks in the system, and I suppose rubble has the same attributes. Good husbandry and a productive skimmer can't hurt, either!
barryhc- I, too was wondering about differnt "zones" in the same system. For example, a rublle zone over 2/3 of the tank, with a DSB/seagrass area over the rest...Has anyone tried a "mutlizone" approach?
Scott
I haven't tried it yet, and like you I would love to hear from anyone who has. PaulB has been at this for quite a while, maybe he can help some.
I am trying to get ready for a 200 gal. setup, and this is one of "very many" possibilities that I'm looking into. Plenum Wasting might do well for a DSB zone. It is experimental, and I'm trying to develop it.
RUGF may be the hot ticket for the Rubble zone. I'm sure starting to like the idea of a Rubble zone in my tank.
Maybe a Jaw fish garden as well.
I think it would be more conducive to fairly large tanks, but maybe that won't turn out to be a restriction. I need to learn a lot more about the various "fauna" and where they "like to live".
Happy Reef Keeping! > barryhc
lillibirdy
New member
Miatawnt2b, My tank is not just rubble, so maybe this don't count, but it has 2" of CC and in the middle a rubble pile on top of it, with a RUGF. It is very stable, in spite of having some supposed nitrate factories attached. (hob filter pads, and sponges on the RUGF intake) and I think we decided there must be denitrification going on in there somewhere cause I have had 0 nitrates for months now.
Paul B
Premium Member
Hello there Lillibirdy,
I also have no readable nitrates and have not had any in many years. My reef is mostly dolomite with some sand, rubble, broken glass, asphalt, shells and who knows what else. I run my reverse UG filter very slow with the theory that there must be many areas between the gravel and under the rocks where anerobic bacteria can thrive and reduce nitrate. My nitrate read about ten when I had a wet dry filter and I ran the UG filter much faster. My substrate is loaded with life that you can see with the naked eye. There are "bugs" running all over the place that are much larger than copepods. Spaghetti worms are in every nook as are tiny brittle stars, starfish and multi colored worms as well as an abundance of tube worms. This may have something to do with the fact that I collect amphipods by taking porous rocks from a muddy beach at low tide and swirling them in a pail of water, what ever I collect (except crabs) I dump in the tank with some of the mud. I have been doing this since 1972 and I believe it is one of the factors that has kept my tank healthy all of these years. Almost every tank I have ever seen was much too sterile.
I even did an experiment once with some mud from the Long Island Sound in NY. I filled a shallow pan with it and let it sit on the bottom of my tank for a few months. It didn't prove anything that I could tell but it didn't hurt either.
I also collect NY seaweed and plant it all over the tank, great stuff.
My RUGF theory is that it can reduce nitrate while having very little chance of producing any hydrogen sulfide. It also seems to have the ability of doing this forever, or at least 35 years with "almost" no maintenance. The UG filter plates were used for 25 years before I cleaned them and they were not that bad, most of the stuff in my gravel was tubeworms.
Have a great day.
Paul
I also have no readable nitrates and have not had any in many years. My reef is mostly dolomite with some sand, rubble, broken glass, asphalt, shells and who knows what else. I run my reverse UG filter very slow with the theory that there must be many areas between the gravel and under the rocks where anerobic bacteria can thrive and reduce nitrate. My nitrate read about ten when I had a wet dry filter and I ran the UG filter much faster. My substrate is loaded with life that you can see with the naked eye. There are "bugs" running all over the place that are much larger than copepods. Spaghetti worms are in every nook as are tiny brittle stars, starfish and multi colored worms as well as an abundance of tube worms. This may have something to do with the fact that I collect amphipods by taking porous rocks from a muddy beach at low tide and swirling them in a pail of water, what ever I collect (except crabs) I dump in the tank with some of the mud. I have been doing this since 1972 and I believe it is one of the factors that has kept my tank healthy all of these years. Almost every tank I have ever seen was much too sterile.
I even did an experiment once with some mud from the Long Island Sound in NY. I filled a shallow pan with it and let it sit on the bottom of my tank for a few months. It didn't prove anything that I could tell but it didn't hurt either.
I also collect NY seaweed and plant it all over the tank, great stuff.
My RUGF theory is that it can reduce nitrate while having very little chance of producing any hydrogen sulfide. It also seems to have the ability of doing this forever, or at least 35 years with "almost" no maintenance. The UG filter plates were used for 25 years before I cleaned them and they were not that bad, most of the stuff in my gravel was tubeworms.
Have a great day.
Paul
