lillibirdy
New member
OK someone needs to hurry up and try that mulitple firefish idea, I am loving that thought!!!!
Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?"
- Thread starter algaeguy
- Start date
DITTO ! ! !
I'm not "up" on this yet as much as I should be, because I'm still trying to get far enough with the substrate, "grain" size, RUGF, Wasting Plenum, Rubble, RDSB, RRB ( thats Remote Rubble Bottom )
, etc. , but I think that at least we could say that the Rubble effectively increases the "size" or "area" that the animals occupy. I think that is what Scott is hoping for. Me too ! Many of the smaller bethnic fish, that myself and others are interested in are described as being territorial, and requiring "X" amount of space to be "happy" or not unduly "pestered" in.
Two or more Rubble zones, might allow a species to think that his "individual zone" is his, and be satisfied, more so, than if the whole bottom is Rubble, and he can't define "his" fence. :idea:
Rubble Bottom, the great "Tank expander" ! I hope so.
> Barry :beachbum: :thumbsup:
rsteagall
New member
The way I see it is this whole rubble bottom idea is pretty much the same thing that garf.org has been doing for years. I mean, garf's grunge is basically rubble bottom bagged and sold.
http://www.garf.org/GRUNGEPLUS1/SHOW/index.html
Everyone has presented good ideas, but that slideshow above should define what a rubble bottom is. Its merely a place to create a "Cryptic Zone" inside your aquarium.
When someone asks what kind of sandbed you have, I forsee a future term of "CZR", that will stand for "Cryptic Zone Rubble" sandbed. Or maybe just "CR" for cryptic rubble... I think I like that better. One less letter :lol:
http://www.garf.org/GRUNGEPLUS1/SHOW/index.html
Everyone has presented good ideas, but that slideshow above should define what a rubble bottom is. Its merely a place to create a "Cryptic Zone" inside your aquarium.
When someone asks what kind of sandbed you have, I forsee a future term of "CZR", that will stand for "Cryptic Zone Rubble" sandbed. Or maybe just "CR" for cryptic rubble... I think I like that better.
One less letter :lol:
lillibirdy
New member
I am unfamiliar with Garf grunge. Is it really as big as the rubble we are talking about? My rubble is mostly 2-3 inches, some tinier, some larger...
No, it isn't. The Garf "Cryptic Zone" Rubble is from about 1/8" to 1/2" as far as rock, with a few pieces, and some shells, that get up to 3/4".
I got a suction cup and a couple of broken fittings in mine too.
The www.Garf.org site has a tremendous wealth of information, and I understand that they have some fantastic frags you can purchase as well.
The level of organization has been "abysmal" over there for quite some time, and I can't say if it has improved recently or not.
In any case, if you are going to purchase anything alive from them, be sure that you have them identify the shipping method, and demand that you are notified immediately about the "departure" of your package.
The pods and worms and stars and "stuff" that they show in their pictures, just aren't showing up in the Grunge packages lately.
> Barry
I got a suction cup and a couple of broken fittings in mine too.
The www.Garf.org site has a tremendous wealth of information, and I understand that they have some fantastic frags you can purchase as well.
The level of organization has been "abysmal" over there for quite some time, and I can't say if it has improved recently or not.
In any case, if you are going to purchase anything alive from them, be sure that you have them identify the shipping method, and demand that you are notified immediately about the "departure" of your package.
The pods and worms and stars and "stuff" that they show in their pictures, just aren't showing up in the Grunge packages lately.
> Barry
Last edited:
rsteagall
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6658080#post6658080 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
The Garf Grunge is at least 2/3 dark gray "mud" as well. It is not predominantly "rubble" regardless of the specific size.
> Barry
I didn't realize garfs had that much mud, but over time, anyone's CRZ/CR/CZR would have some "mud" as well. Stuf is just going to break down and you can't stop that.
I guess there should be a poll on what size is considered rubble. I would certainly consider subsrate with any significant amount or majority of rock chunks of 1/2" to 2" to be considered rubble. IMHO if you get much bigger than that, your simply dealing with a bare bottom and live rock setup.
algaeguy
Over-The-Top- Reef Geek
rsteagall:
Interesting thoughts on rubble sizing. I suppose, as I think we mentioned early in the thread, you could make the argument that rubble bottom tanks with larger rock pieces could be a form of BB (at least aesthetically)...But I think the similarity ends there. We're talking about not being afraid of detritus accumulation in the rubble zone, as it may actually be of benefit to the organisms living and "working" in there! Yes, we embrace protein skimming, etc., but I think it can be safely stated that we're departing form the "conventional" BB methodology somewhat. Perhaps the "rubble bottom" is really a sort of "fusion" of several schools of thought.
I do like the GARF stuff, and you are right- they have been advocating this type of thing for some time. However, as we've discussed, although the cryptic zone idea is a very important part of the rubble zone methodology, it is also a biotope to model. BTW- I love the "CZR" term...!
I suppose it can also be argued that rubble could be anything from the 1/2" size that you mention, all the way up to small chunks of rock. My thinking is that even 4"-5" pieces of broken slab can, if stacked on the bottom of the tank, be considered "rubble", or at least comprise a "rubble zone".
I think that we can stretch the working definition of "rubble zone" to something like: " A concentration of various-sized pieces of calcareous materials, loosely stacked upon each other at varying depths for the purpose of increasing biodiversity, creating a functional habitat for fishes, encouraging the production of supplemental food sources, and fostering natural (denitrification) processes."
Yikes- that's a seriously long definition! But, I think it covers some of the stuff we've been disussing here. "CZR" certainly is easier to write! LOL
In the end, I guess we really cannot take ourselves too seriously- we're just a bunch of fish geeks trying to have fun! And I tell ya- the ideas in this thread are just soo cool to see!
Lots of different ways to run a rubble zone system, I think!
Keep it comin'!
Scot
Interesting thoughts on rubble sizing. I suppose, as I think we mentioned early in the thread, you could make the argument that rubble bottom tanks with larger rock pieces could be a form of BB (at least aesthetically)...But I think the similarity ends there. We're talking about not being afraid of detritus accumulation in the rubble zone, as it may actually be of benefit to the organisms living and "working" in there! Yes, we embrace protein skimming, etc., but I think it can be safely stated that we're departing form the "conventional" BB methodology somewhat. Perhaps the "rubble bottom" is really a sort of "fusion" of several schools of thought.
I do like the GARF stuff, and you are right- they have been advocating this type of thing for some time. However, as we've discussed, although the cryptic zone idea is a very important part of the rubble zone methodology, it is also a biotope to model. BTW- I love the "CZR" term...!
I suppose it can also be argued that rubble could be anything from the 1/2" size that you mention, all the way up to small chunks of rock. My thinking is that even 4"-5" pieces of broken slab can, if stacked on the bottom of the tank, be considered "rubble", or at least comprise a "rubble zone".
I think that we can stretch the working definition of "rubble zone" to something like: " A concentration of various-sized pieces of calcareous materials, loosely stacked upon each other at varying depths for the purpose of increasing biodiversity, creating a functional habitat for fishes, encouraging the production of supplemental food sources, and fostering natural (denitrification) processes."
Yikes- that's a seriously long definition! But, I think it covers some of the stuff we've been disussing here. "CZR" certainly is easier to write! LOL
In the end, I guess we really cannot take ourselves too seriously- we're just a bunch of fish geeks trying to have fun! And I tell ya- the ideas in this thread are just soo cool to see!
Lots of different ways to run a rubble zone system, I think!
Keep it comin'!
Scot
rsteagall
New member
Oh yea man, no doubt... its all about the fun. I know I spend more time on the forums researching than I do sitting looking at my tank. I'm about to build an experimental tank and will probably seed it with something like garf or just by getting a scoop of sand from everyone's refugium I know and trying to add as many detritivours as I can. I'd love to see a bunch of micro serpent stars in a czr system.
I think your definition is right on with what I had in mind. Basically not fine stuff or bare bottom, but a mixture of stuff where a majority of the makeup is of a certain size not to mistake it for sand/crushed aragonite or too big as to call it a bare bottom w/LR.
I think your definition is right on with what I had in mind. Basically not fine stuff or bare bottom, but a mixture of stuff where a majority of the makeup is of a certain size not to mistake it for sand/crushed aragonite or too big as to call it a bare bottom w/LR.
I think we should get into the "production of supplemental sources" part of this. It is a large part of the advantage of "Rubble Bottom", to generate some good "faunal bio-diversity".
The question is, just what "fauna" are we looking for. A "tasty snack" is one answer, but where do we get these, and what do we call them.
Another very important aspect here, is to find animals that are detrivores, so that they do our cleaning chores for us. Detrivores which are also tasty snacks would be pretty slick as well. I'm very interested in these animals, but haven't found that much info yet.
The common answer is that "they" will self populate from your live rock, and to some degree I'm sure this is true, but we could help them along if we knew what "they" were, and where to get them.
> Barry
The question is, just what "fauna" are we looking for. A "tasty snack" is one answer, but where do we get these, and what do we call them.
Another very important aspect here, is to find animals that are detrivores, so that they do our cleaning chores for us. Detrivores which are also tasty snacks would be pretty slick as well. I'm very interested in these animals, but haven't found that much info yet.
The common answer is that "they" will self populate from your live rock, and to some degree I'm sure this is true, but we could help them along if we knew what "they" were, and where to get them.
> Barry
Paul B
Premium Member
I collect amphipods by the hundreds or thousands in the summer, they are all over my boat. They seem to meet the criteria of a detrivore and tasty snack. I can't find any in my tank now so I don't know if they were all eaten or if they can't breed at tropical temperatures.
Paul
engagg
New member
There are a few online shops that sell detrivore kits, Ie pods, worms, micro stars. **************** and inland aquatics are two that come to mind but I am sure there are many more.
How often do we need to replenish these critters is one question. Another is how much do they eat versus how much they poop into the system? I know some of these come off LR when cycling with the rock, but if we cook the rock how much do we loose? I know on the past when I ran my 33long fishless for a while I had pods and minishrimp like mad only took them about a month to populate the tank to where you could see them everywhere.
Greg
How often do we need to replenish these critters is one question. Another is how much do they eat versus how much they poop into the system? I know some of these come off LR when cycling with the rock, but if we cook the rock how much do we loose? I know on the past when I ran my 33long fishless for a while I had pods and minishrimp like mad only took them about a month to populate the tank to where you could see them everywhere.
Greg
algaeguy
Over-The-Top- Reef Geek
I've also been experimenting with various "mud" additives to see if they really do add any minerals that help foster the reproduction of these animals.
An interesting point that you bring up, engagg, is the replenishment/reproduciton rate of these various creatures. I think that , although our rubble systems may help propagate these creatures, the fish that we like to keep in them migh do an equally good job of eating them!
Interesting dynamics come into play, for sure!
Barry- I think that the various species of worms that we see in detritivore kits are probably the most common creatures we'd want, but I'll be that mysids and other shrimp may help, as well. Another group of animals I'd consider deliberately stocking in our systems are sponges. Within the various cryptic areas that a rubble system affords are lots of good places for sponges to hide and grow! And, they have the added benefit of providing a source of supplemental "filtration"!
Anyone keeping starfish of any type in rubble-dominated systems?
Keep the ideas flowing!
Scott
An interesting point that you bring up, engagg, is the replenishment/reproduciton rate of these various creatures. I think that , although our rubble systems may help propagate these creatures, the fish that we like to keep in them migh do an equally good job of eating them!
Interesting dynamics come into play, for sure!
Barry- I think that the various species of worms that we see in detritivore kits are probably the most common creatures we'd want, but I'll be that mysids and other shrimp may help, as well. Another group of animals I'd consider deliberately stocking in our systems are sponges. Within the various cryptic areas that a rubble system affords are lots of good places for sponges to hide and grow! And, they have the added benefit of providing a source of supplemental "filtration"!
Anyone keeping starfish of any type in rubble-dominated systems?
Keep the ideas flowing!
Scott
jnowell
New member
Great Thread! I've been thinking along the same idea for my upcoming seahorse tank. I was considering having one side sand, fluidized by a RUGF with rubble on top blended into another side with sand / GARF grunge sitting on top of a plenum. Kinda the best of all three worlds in my opinion. Obviously with seahorses, pod production was my motivator, but the filtration that "should" result would be great IME.
I bought some of the "frag" rocks from reeferrocks.com (cheap, and not chipped off a living reef somewhere). They are beautiful pieces of calcium carbonate rock, already sized to 2-4", you might check into that if you need more.
I'm in the process of converting my old Oceanic 58g from coral propagation to seahorse habitat, so excuse the horid look of this tank right now, but here is a pick of some of the pre-made rubble that I speak of that i threw in to cycle while I sell off most of the coral. I think this pic represents about $10 worth BTW - The stuff on the bottom was added 2 days ago, the small pile behind the zoanthids on the rack is about 2 weeks old. Might be an economical solution for anyone wanting to try this.
Jason
I bought some of the "frag" rocks from reeferrocks.com (cheap, and not chipped off a living reef somewhere). They are beautiful pieces of calcium carbonate rock, already sized to 2-4", you might check into that if you need more.
I'm in the process of converting my old Oceanic 58g from coral propagation to seahorse habitat, so excuse the horid look of this tank right now, but here is a pick of some of the pre-made rubble that I speak of that i threw in to cycle while I sell off most of the coral. I think this pic represents about $10 worth
BTW - The stuff on the bottom was added 2 days ago, the small pile behind the zoanthids on the rack is about 2 weeks old. Might be an economical solution for anyone wanting to try this.Jason
Paul B
Premium Member
I don't really have a rubble substrate, I don't really know what to call it, but I have small starfish under the rocks, two different kinds, one is brittle stars and one is a smaller thicher one.
I did not put these animals here, they must be hitchhikers and since I have not added coral or rock in a few years they must be reproducing.
Paul
engagg
New member
Barry,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by engagg
whoa, my apologies didn't know I could not type in nonsponsors websites.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IS THIS FOR REAL ? ? ? ? ?
I can't believe it. Tell me I'm dreaming, PLEASE ! !
> Barry
I don't know if its for real or not but when my post came back the website I typed in was shown as ***********.
Sorry for being a bit OT with that.
Has anyone thought of any ways to keep populations of pods, mysids and such up? I was think about putting some area with small size rubble so that these critters might have a refuge within there refuge.
For the 75 I am currently working on, I am going to utilize a rubble bottom for about 1/3 of the substrate and a sand bed for seagrasses in the rest. Sump will also have a dsb. Still working out some of the kinks and will hopefully be testing the plumbing in the next day or so.
I would not have tried a partial rubble bottom without all the brainstorming from you guys, really a great idea. My last tank had a lot of rubble mised with coarse substrate all the down to fine southdown, the creatures had lots of places to hide and the tank looked nice. I believe you may get some greater organism diversity with this type of setup and it will be interesting to see what happens with the new tank.
Greg
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by engagg
whoa, my apologies didn't know I could not type in nonsponsors websites.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IS THIS FOR REAL ? ? ? ? ?
I can't believe it. Tell me I'm dreaming, PLEASE ! !
> Barry
I don't know if its for real or not but when my post came back the website I typed in was shown as ***********.
Sorry for being a bit OT with that.
Has anyone thought of any ways to keep populations of pods, mysids and such up? I was think about putting some area with small size rubble so that these critters might have a refuge within there refuge.
For the 75 I am currently working on, I am going to utilize a rubble bottom for about 1/3 of the substrate and a sand bed for seagrasses in the rest. Sump will also have a dsb. Still working out some of the kinks and will hopefully be testing the plumbing in the next day or so.
I would not have tried a partial rubble bottom without all the brainstorming from you guys, really a great idea. My last tank had a lot of rubble mised with coarse substrate all the down to fine southdown, the creatures had lots of places to hide and the tank looked nice. I believe you may get some greater organism diversity with this type of setup and it will be interesting to see what happens with the new tank.
Greg
rustybucket145
New member
A few months ago I put some pieces of 'dry' live (dead) rock in my sump to let it age some and go through some algae stages before introducing it to my main tank. Over the course of a week several amiphods, copepods and even a few mysis shrimp took up residence in this rock. Since the rock was previously 'dry' these guys could not be hitch-hikers they had to come from within my tank. Well when the time passed on the LR it was added to my main tank. But...... What could I put in my sump to attract these beneficial inhabitants.
Well... After searching some LFS's I bought a bag of shells/ Coral pieces (dry). The size of the pieces ranged from Silver Dollar to dime in various shapes and sizes. I then placed about 4" of this 'Rubble' in the bottom of my sump. Within a week there were a few amiphods and a slight accumulation of detrius. I added a few hermit crabs and a small variety of snails to the sump. They seemed to at least help with detrius removal.
I just found this thread today and I have only been a member for a short time but this thread really hits on some of the concepts that I was trying to accomplish. I basically wanted an area where larger pods and organisms could live and raise young. Because of the high flow of my sump sand was not an option and live rock was to expensive/cool to put in a sump (or mine at least).
Are there any problems that I will encounter with this method.? Is detrius buildup going to be a concern for me?
The organisims are doing great and several different species can be identified and different forms of life come out at different times of the day and can be viewed.
My levels have remained the same throughout this addition of rubble All 0, Calcium 450, PH 8.2.
Should I consider adding some other forms of life to this rubble bed to keep the detrius stirred up? If so what?
I would love to hear any input that anyone has on this matter and I will share all my experiences with the rubble.
Well... After searching some LFS's I bought a bag of shells/ Coral pieces (dry). The size of the pieces ranged from Silver Dollar to dime in various shapes and sizes. I then placed about 4" of this 'Rubble' in the bottom of my sump. Within a week there were a few amiphods and a slight accumulation of detrius. I added a few hermit crabs and a small variety of snails to the sump. They seemed to at least help with detrius removal.
I just found this thread today and I have only been a member for a short time but this thread really hits on some of the concepts that I was trying to accomplish. I basically wanted an area where larger pods and organisms could live and raise young. Because of the high flow of my sump sand was not an option and live rock was to expensive/cool to put in a sump (or mine at least).
Are there any problems that I will encounter with this method.? Is detrius buildup going to be a concern for me?
The organisims are doing great and several different species can be identified and different forms of life come out at different times of the day and can be viewed.
My levels have remained the same throughout this addition of rubble All 0, Calcium 450, PH 8.2.
Should I consider adding some other forms of life to this rubble bed to keep the detrius stirred up? If so what?
I would love to hear any input that anyone has on this matter and I will share all my experiences with the rubble.
Another place to get calcium carbonate rubble rock is HiRocks.
www.hirocks.com
You can get golf ball to baseball sized pieces, and if you need a ton literally you can get one of their big totes.
Doug
www.hirocks.com
You can get golf ball to baseball sized pieces, and if you need a ton literally you can get one of their big totes.
Doug
