Hatching brine in-tank? Alternative food sources for dwarves and dragonface?

ReeferGreg

New member
Hey guys-

Looking to set up an 8 gallon dwarf seahorse tank. Curious if anyone has tried hatching brine on a continual basis, in-tank? Tried searching.

I was considering using an in-tank container, with a hole in the lid, to allow the brine shrimp to swim towards the light and escape. I read about some using a film canister with a hole in the lid to do so.

I'm also wondering - what COMMERCIAL copepod/amphipod brands are favored for dwarves and/or pipefish? What size range is ideal?

I've also read of some luck with feeding nutramar ova and cyclop-eez to supplement live brine.

BEFORE anyone says it - YES, i know I should be prepared to feed live brine DAILY to dwarves.

Just trying to explore some other supplemental feeding methods.

Thanks!!
 
Hopefully the dragonface will be in a different set up.
I would NEVER put cysts in contact with the display tank water.
Brine shrimp cysts are known to harbour nasty bacteria and they also seem to be a source of hydroids.
Empty cysts that MAY make their way out of the container could also be ingested and plug up a digestive tract.
At the very least, one needs to decap or at least sterilize the cysts before putting them in the hatching container. Actually this should be done no matter how they are hatched out.
Another problem is that of nutrition. The bbs need to be enriched before feeding to the dwarfs, and then removed before the next feeding so that they aren't still feeding on bbs that have reduced nutrient.
As for feeding non live foods, I don't know anyone that has succeeded in doing this long term.
Any pelagic live food that is approximately the size of bbs will be a welcome addition to the food chain.
Benthic food doesn't work well because dwarfs aren't too interested in hunting down sufficient food to survive.
 
you can buy decapsulated hatchable eggs . toms aquatic makes a in tank hatchery . kind of flimsy but it works
 
On AAZK.org :

"For example, brine shrimp feeders (a dark film canister with holes in it for the brine shrimp to swim out into the light) can be used with seahorses (Columbus Zoo and Aquarium) and other small fishes"

Unless this info is downright false, the Colombus Zoo is known to use this method. And as MTC1966 pointed out, decapsulated eggs are readily available.

For those with lots of experience keeping dwarves...approximately how much of the cysts would one need, daily, for ~10 dwarves? A teaspoon? Less? More?

Also unanswered as of now...which commercially available pod species are best for dwarves?
 
On AAZK.org :

"For example, brine shrimp feeders (a dark film canister with holes in it for the brine shrimp to swim out into the light) can be used with seahorses (Columbus Zoo and Aquarium) and other small fishes"

Unless this info is downright false, the Colombus Zoo is known to use this method. And as MTC1966 pointed out, decapsulated eggs are readily available.

For those with lots of experience keeping dwarves...approximately how much of the cysts would one need, daily, for ~10 dwarves? A teaspoon? Less? More?

Also unanswered as of now...which commercially available pod species are best for dwarves?

Hopefully the dragonface will be in a different set up.
I would NEVER put cysts in contact with the display tank water.
Brine shrimp cysts are known to harbour nasty bacteria and they also seem to be a source of hydroids.
Empty cysts that MAY make their way out of the container could also be ingested and plug up a digestive tract.
At the very least, one needs to decap or at least sterilize the cysts before putting them in the hatching container. Actually this should be done no matter how they are hatched out.
Another problem is that of nutrition. The bbs need to be enriched before feeding to the dwarfs, and then removed before the next feeding so that they aren't still feeding on bbs that have reduced nutrient.
As for feeding non live foods, I don't know anyone that has succeeded in doing this long term.
Any pelagic live food that is approximately the size of bbs will be a welcome addition to the food chain.
Benthic food doesn't work well because dwarfs aren't too interested in hunting down sufficient food to survive.

As far as I've seen, all of your questions have been answered. Copepods still need to be cultured out of the display tank so you can have enough to feed.
A quote from DanU "Rotifers and ciliates are too small for zosterae. Even the fry can eat enriched artemia that is Instar III & IV. If you are using copepods, you want at least 250 microns in size up to about 500 to 700 microns. Other foods can be used as a supplement but unless you are able to produce 3000 or so per day per each fry, you will still have to give them artemia."

I believe the Colombus Zoo uses these brine shrimp feeders as just one source of food for their animals. And just because a public aquarium can make it work, doesn't mean a hobbiest can.
 
I can't help with the amount of cysts you need per day because I don't hatch daily.
I hatch out a heaping tablespoon in a two litre pop bottle and then when hatched I transfer them to a 26g rubbermaid container.
I remove about a 1/4 teaspoon (drained) of bbs daily for enrichment which I do in two 12 hour stages with new enrichment (Dan's Feed) for each stage. 1/4 teaspoon will suffice for 20 dwarfs in a 2 1/2g tank. Larger tank, same number of dwarfs, you will need more bbs to keep the same density.
I keep the 26g culture cool that helps with bacteria problems and make for slow growth of the bbs so I can use each batch for 10 days.
After the 10 day stage, I grow them on Algamac 3050 and spirulina powder (blended in water for 2 minutes) until they reach adult stage for feeding to my standard seahorses.
 
able to produce 3000 or so per day per each fry
This should be 1000 not 3000. May have been a typo on my end! Sorry!

Greg, What is important to understand, is that in the 9 years I have been breeding this species, selling them and handling help calls with problems, is that I have learned that over 75% of the zosterae I sell to first time keepers of this species results in losses. Many try again and eventually succeed and many move on.

Like many others, I too have had my failures. It wasn't until we went to properly enriched artemia and properly filtered the systems that we became successful, despite about 4 years of experimenting. Studying artemia (which there is a great deal of research on) paid big dividends on both this species and other species.

There are several hurdles to over come with artemia. First is that un - enriched artemia are lacking severely in the DHA component of the fatty acid profile. This can be corrected using the proper enrichment and enrichment procedures. Second, the by product of hatching is glycerol, a perfect medium for bacteria. It is well document that artemia cultures can be loaded with bacteria. Page 114 of the "Manual on the production and use of live food for aquaculture" published by the FAO states:
vibrio sp. constitute the main bacteria flora in Artemia cyst hatching solutions."
Granted, if everything is sterile and kept sterile, then this shouldn't be an issue but that is not the case with an in tank hatcher. Thirdly, newly hatched artemia quickly loose their egg yolk sac after hatching and further reduces their nutritional value. Proper enriching compensates for this by not only packing the gut but also allowing the enrichment to assimilate within the tissues. It can also compensate for some of the limiting amino acids found in nauplii. Fourthly, newly hatched artemia are harder to digest. Many have reported seeing artemia pass through seahorse fry and still be alive. Artemia nauplii have a harder carpace than on grown nauplii that you get with enriching. Also, newly hatched don't have a mouth part and don't take in the enzymes that on grown does that can aid with digestion. Lastly, properly enriched artemia will be in the 800 to 1000 micron size range. This means not only will they be more nutrition for a given amount of mass, but the mass itself is much larger than the typical 400 to 450 micron size newly hatched nauplii. In other words, much more nutrition per bite or energy consumed.

What we found that works really well in augmenting the diet of H. zosterae is live mysids co-cultured with them. The nauplii of the mysids make an additional food source and the zosterae will also go after the adults. What is really nice about this is that the mysid eat the same food so they help as clean up crew.

As for the copepods, it really depends upon the setup and the approach. If you are looking for a one time addition and there is adequate hiding places, Tisbe sp. are probably the best. They are harpactoids and contribute to the clean up crew. If you are looking to culture them separately and feed out, then Pseudodiaptomus are a good choice as they are larger. The issue with this species is that they are a little tougher to culture.

Keep in mind that there are many out there that will tell you how easy it is to keep this species. The reality is that some get lucky but the most experienced keepers as a whole find this is not the case. Public Aquariums often do things differently, some very successfully. They should with a trained staff of biologists. But I will also counter, that many have issues as well. I don't know about this particular aquarium.

Dan
 
Dan i purchased a toms in tank on a whim i know that bbs are to small to give any nutrition to erectus . but i thought it would feed my Gorgonian and maybe the sea horses would enjoy a few . do you think it is worth keeping in my set up?
 
If it were me, No! We go through great lengths to clean up our artemia. To me it just isn't worth the risk. I attribute a large part of our success to the measures we take at bacterial reduction in our live feeds.

Dan
 
Not a seahorse tank, mine, but just happened to notice the question. My rock and sand and moss fuge could easily supply a tank with treats, enough to let you leave it for a few days and not worry. Mysis breeds down there like mad. Eggs evidently arrived with frozen food, and ever since then the place is swarming: mysis, copepods, all sorts of swimming bugs.
 
Mysis breeds down there like mad. Eggs evidently arrived with frozen food, and ever since then the place is swarming
The frozen mysis are freshwater shrimp. What you have in your tank are mysid shrimp, saltwater obviously.
They get in the tank the same way your pod life does, with rock, coral, and plants.
A lot of what you find in your tank is too large for dwarfs to eat but their nauplii stages would be suitable.
 
i just have to say "wow!"... rayjay and dan - i am amazed at and appreciate your knowledge, and willingness to share that knowledge, of areas in the saltwater world.
I am currently cycling a tank (and doing lots of research in the meantime) for a 6 gal. dwarf seahorse tank. I'm still 'on the fence' whether I'm going to go thru with them or not.... the more I research the more I keep saying "I'm not sure if I'm ready for this". after reading all the posts in this thread I've decided - I am not ready. I love those lil guys which is why I want a tank with some... but bcuz I love em I can't be getting them unless I truly am ready to take on that responsibility. I'll know I'm ready when I know what every one of the words in all that info on caring/feeding seahorses means :) there were a few I need to find out what they mean [lol]
sooo... bcuz my 90g is a 'nice' community reef tank... I think I'll get an aggressive/viscous type for a single species tank in my now cycling 6g

any suggestions?

and again ..."thank you!" to everyone on these forums for always being willing to share your experiences, strengths, ideas, and hopes!
 
Hi guys i'm new here, after reading this page i had to join :-)

Has anyone try phytoplankton in a dwarf seahorse tank? this should feed the baby brine shrimp and also feed any pods in the tank.

I had very good luck doing phyto water in the past feeding rotifers. I think rotifers will be to small, and just thought this would be the best way to feed and help keep the tank clean and thoughts? Plus the light green tint i think is cool.

also i was going to use decaps brine shrimp eggs, so i don't have to worry about shells.

My dwarfs seahorse will be here this week and i'm very happy :-) I have kept seahorse in the past but dwarfs will be something new.

Thank you
 
First of all, there is no one phyto that has sufficient nutrient properties to enrich the bbs.
The bbs cannot feed until the second instar stage, usually about a day after hatching.
IMO, adding phyto to the tank is just adding nutrient to the nuisance algae and possibly nasty bacteria.
 
Hi guys i'm new here, after reading this page i had to join :-)

Has anyone try phytoplankton in a dwarf seahorse tank? this should feed the baby brine shrimp and also feed any pods in the tank.

Not unless you want very green (or brown, depending on the species) water. With a higher organic load, phyto is bound to take off in a dwarf seahorse tank. And any amount of phyto you add that isn't significantly tinting the water probably won't be very effective for enriching.

Plus, everything rayjay said.
 
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