Help finding old link relating cycling and fish

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12667529#post12667529 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hotwire73
Lol main point is which one of my listed fish would be most suited to go to the newer tank. The established system yes has a skimmer, the new one no. I still have my ETSS1000, but considering its for 1500 gallons and I have a 4000 gph sump pump piped into it, I think its a bit much for the 55. Well actually it isnt really possible to run it on a 55 without a chiller or something because even with a 120 tank and the house at a constand 71-73 I had to run fans on it to keep the system down to 78. Besides it stand over 4 feet which puts it as high as the tank and stand. Im trying to land a deal on another 180 tank and get one set back up and heopfully combine these two into the one larger. This is one of the main reasons Im trying to understand cycling alot better. You would think that if you dont increase the fish or anything and just use actual water volume; you should be able to modify and add a new filter system that would safely establish itself while the older filters maintain. This is for some reason a question that hasnt been answered yet in any of my threads.
Back to now, I've apparently pushed to far in inches per gallons and I need to make a decision on who has the best chance at a cycling tank. Thing is Im using part of the filtration from the existing tank so the cycle shouldnt be nearly as rough. Im getting slammed on what you dont do with fish and a new tank, but this isnt technically a completely new to cycle system.
As for the main tank I use now, it has been established for about 3 years itself.

No one has "slammed " you rather trying to appeal to you not to treat your fish the way you are doing or deterimined to do

Somethings here are really bothering me and I am sure they are to others regarding the quality and care your fish are receiving.

1. despite people telling you not to add any fish to an uncycled tank you seem bent on ignoring the advice and are doing it anyways

2. your initial post is also troublesome where you state
"3 very retarded mandarin gobys (DRAGONETTES), that I could care less for at this point,"

3. "I've apparently pushed to far in inches per gallons and I need to make a decision on who has the best chance at a cycling tank. Thing is Im using part of the filtration from the existing tank so the cycle shouldnt be nearly as rough"
What is troublesome about this statement is how you got to this situation in the first place with 5 years experience.

4. The inaccuracies in this statement:

"The niger and blk lion and powder blue are all 4 or a little over, everyone else is basically in the 3 area with the exceptions of the gobys. I would like to have the blk lion, niger, puffer, and the gobys in the cycling tank since there just meat eaters that leave little mess. As for the gobys its just because they dont exactly get ick to easy due to there skin. Now I do know the dogface is probably going to be a bad idea since he's like an ick magnet."

5. "Well after the last major loss I actually waited 3 months, I stated in that reply that was back in Jan. Feb. I already had these ordered when my radiatta died. Thing is it wasnt that wasnt that uncommon for him. The butterfly died but I have never had any luck with them and this pearlscale is going to be my make it or break it"
This is very troublesome---how many fish are going to have to die before you acutally listen to others advice

6. Your tank had copper based medications in it:eek2:

I am not just posting this to 'flame' you but rather out of a deep concern and committment I have to this hobby, the welfare of the creatures we keep and the promoting of good responsible reefing habits

MY suggestion:
Let that new tank cycle on its own like it should. When you have zero ammonia and zero nitrates then very slooowly add your clean up crew--the inverts
After that add your fish one at a time allowing 5 days at least for the bacteria to cycle to the new biomass.
Take the time to research the individual needs of your fish before adding them to the new tank.

 

[hotwire73]

How many fish are going to die before I listen to others advice. Tell me where in there, there is actually someone who understands what type of cycling Im doing and has given an educated reply.
This is not a completely new setup with all new filters, NOT A COMPLETELY NET SETUP. If it was I would just throw a raw shrimp in and let it do its thing. I started the tank due the problems with the radiatta. The thing is yes I had two deaths but one of which died in like 2.5 weeks which is basically a qt time. They dont have a very high success rate due to their health when you get them. I also had to learn alot about them as well, and there many complications. As for the niger, two or the 3 gobys and the puffer; they kinda got tossed on me by someone dropping there tanks. So I maybe should just flsuh them down the toilet since it seems to be what it seems your implying. I have a sitation and IM TRYING to resolve it with the least problems as possible. My buttlefly didnt die until all the others where added, and I already ordered betta, and pearlscale 2 weeks earlier. I was however able to get my supplier to stop the shipment on the new radiatta, which I really really wanted more than anything else in this system outside my emp angel.
Now I know what a new tank and cycle are. Thing is IM USING established filters to help. No one is actually saying anything about if this normally works or the downside to doing this. I plan on adding a much larger tank back in in the next two months, and when I do; it will be a completely new filtration setup as well. I was hoping to use all the filter devices on the newer tank when it gets here to keep everyone alive and give the new plenty of time to catch up. Thing is, will this work normally???? I can sit here and post to anyone about a completely new tank setup, but no one can just answer this very crucial question, (even with 25 years exp.)
Now as for my inaccuracies, not sure what part was inaccurate. Puffers are very bad and usually show ick first from my experence. Gobys seem to do better because of something to do with their oils in the skin. Now this is something I read on here awhile back.
As for my thoughts on the gobys, there is a difference between being a resonable fish keeper, dog keeper or anything then worshipping the thing. I REALLY dont cane how anyone else thinks on that one. I spent over 60 in just food supplies in the last 2 weeks to give these guys about the best of everything. So its not like Im just some cheap *** trying to have them survive on flakes. But bottom line is even in nature these guys die everyday, and when you give them option after option after option, and even to the point of hatching fresh brine shrimp and they still dont eat, then the stupid things should die. I guess if someone puts food in front of your face and you dont eat and die, they are the buttholes and its their fault.
Now, back to the beginning of this whole posting. No one has answered why they are dying, (I know its somehow related to overcrowding, but I dont understand why when everything test esceptionally good). Im trying to do what is best for them NOW, I dont think leaving everyone in the main tank is best. But if all of you do, then I will simply because of that.
But in 2-3 months when I start the new system Im going to have the same issue with cycling and would like to learn from this to know whats in store. Im going to be using the same live rock, live sand, and bio filters from these tanks on that one in the beginning. But only until the newer filtration takes affect. Now by doing this am I cheating the newer bio filter from converting ammonia to nitrites etc, and when I pull the (one at a time) established bios from tank is it going to force the new filter back into a cycle. This is really one of the things I have not got answered and I REALLY need an answer for. You have a list of what fish I have, and if you think its okie dokie to leave them in the one tank for the time, ok.
Just remember the next time you go buy an oil change, since your not buying that synthetic are you neglecting your car? With no money in mind we can always usually do something better. If I didnt think I was about to make a mistake that can cost another one of their lives I wouldnt be on here looking like a fool. Most of what Ive told you isnt what Im saying is best and is right, but to let you see what I know (flawed or not), my situation in full. I figure its like going to the doctor, you go say you dont feel good, and it doesnt help much. But if you tell them what lead to it and other symptoms you can usually come to a remedy.
1 what happens when you place an established filter on a new aquarium and add filters. Is this cheating and not allowing the new filters to cycle correctly or is this ok?
2 Given what I have for fish, would it be in the interest of the many over the few, to put one of the larger guys in the newer setup tank. I still keep the gobys in there since I can not grow and hatch shrimp in water that has copper.

Also for the flame on the copper, it was what all 3 of the local dealers said to do since it was tank wide. I also know for fact that 2 very large suppliers of salt water fish on this coast use copper in there main systems. Also all 3 dealers do as well. Why its rather obvious since they all get sick fish in all the time. I do not keep inverts or anything that copper would really be harmful to so I question if I should continue to use it as a preventative.

 

[hotwire73]

Also another reason for the cycling problem is Im wanting to change my filtration system on my main tank. Things is when I add the new filter system I know I need to leave the established ones there for around 6-8 weeks at least, but what can I expect to happen when I take the older system out??
The one question that never is answered is what happens next.
Now either one you have an established filter after the 6-8 weeks. Now what comes to mind is that filter being cheated out of the process of ammonia to nitrites etc. since the established filters are already doing this? Im curious is this is maybe a problem that Im having on the newer tank. Im using that filter off my established system that is rated for 75+ anyway, but since I added another filtration unit that is completely new to it that that may be why Im showing a .50 ammonia presently.
I know someone on here has at sometime upgraded their tanks to larger ones which required a larger and new filtration unit. I yes Im sure some of you just waited for the new tank to fully cycle with nothing but the chunk of shrimp, but Im sure someone has just used the established filtration to maintain the system while the new filtration cycles. How did this turn out???

 

[AngeloM3]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12670126#post12670126 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hotwire73
1 what happens when you place an established filter on a new aquarium and add filters. Is this cheating and not allowing the new filters to cycle correctly or is this ok?
2 Given what I have for fish, would it be in the interest of the many over the few, to put one of the larger guys in the newer setup tank.

:eek2: :eek1:
1- Using an "establish" filter/sponge whatever is not enough to make the new tank skip the cycle. It's also not enough to keep the tanks parameters in a 'safe' range. To do that you'd need lots of established water, lots of established sand and lots of establish LR.

2- I wouldn't put anything in the new tank until the parameters read 0 for a week or two. Either have a LFS hold on to them for you or a local reefer hold on to them before you start adding fish.

 

[hotwire73]

K thanks, the lr I added was suppose to be around 3 months at least in its cycling. Im assuming lr goes though about the same as a filter cycle (I have no clue on what live rock is really doing). But I added 35 pounds from there system, with that established filter. Its been a long time since Ive had any kind of ammonia to deal with but I was thinking .5 wasn't good, but not exactly deadly to (some) fish short term. I am just making a guess at that one off of memory. Thing is even though Ive done this for a few years, once you have an aquarium going and it actually has no problems then you forget alot (at least I do).
Ive heard 1 inch per 2 gallons is the max your suppose to push an aquarium. I know this isn't for every fish, but a basic guideline to start with. Correct me on this one if Im wrong as well.
But a thing that concerns me is if by what Im somewhat getting here is that when I decide to upgrade my filter system on my main tank, that isnt going to work either? Can you cycle a new filter as long as the existing ones are in place or this not going to work?????
If I can get the local store to house them it would be great. I will see if that is an option. I doubt it though, their kinda funny about some things. ****I can put them all back in the main tank, but I start having problems when they are within a few days. I dont understand why on this one. All the water parameters are great. Are they not getting enough oxygen or something?? I just dont get it, I heard a gentleman in an earlier post in this thread I think make a statement about the bio filter needing time, which is fine I understand that if its overworking the filter and Im getting anything ammonia, nitrite or even nitrate to go up. Nothing is ever going up, but they just get worse.**** I took my powder blue back out of the newbie tank and put him back in the main. I moved the niger trigger and the blk v. lion over the the cycling tank. Im going to do a partial water change to see cut some off of the .5 ammonia. nitrites and nitrates are still 0 and 5ppm (trates). As long as they are eating and not showing any problems at what readings should I go drastic and donate them to the store. They arent much for help since they dont really have time for anything, but Ive never seen them turn down freebies.
Now on the older system that I borrowed one of the filter systems from for the newer one, I also added a new filter system back in its place. Now that tank is still showing not showing any changes. Think its been about 3 days or so but everything is 0, 0, 10 (trates). But the same question is coming back, is this cheating thisnew filter out of a true cycle and if the main filter failed would it carry or would it start a true cycle. As earlier Im going up to at least 120-180, depends on what I can get ahold of that will fit the best. Im going to combine both 55's all the LR and the live sand into the one. It will have my old filtration unit put on it but it will have to cycle. I was going to leave all the established filters on the newer tank when I get it to keep everything as balanced as possible since all the fish are going into the tank. I am trying to learn as much from all this as possible before I possible make a much larger mistake that will kill all of them.

 

[hotwire73]

Well for an update, the newer tank is at 2.0 ppm for ammonia, nitrite is around .5 as well. As this is a 24 hour period from a .5 ammonia, and 0 nitrite. I decided to make a freshwater dip add some hydroplex, some water conditioner, 10 min bath; and drop them back in the main tank.
For some reason, the newer tank is going to force a complete cycle so Im going to let it. The lion looked content in there but I never heard any replies as the chances of survival. I think its a bad idea to put them all back in the old tank when everyone else was looking better.
2 of the 3 gobys are basically floating half out of it unless u get near them and then they come alive. Could be from the ammonia, but I have yet to see any of them eat anything. I have decided to go ahead while they are alive and donate them to the local store and just eat the expense. Thing is they feed the same tihng I do, but they do have a considerably better established system with isolation cubes with better flow.
K what happened here. The older filter should have done something but doesnt seem to be. Is the 2ndary new filter forcing a complete cycle anything; it shouldn't since I added another filter system to the older tank with no changes.
Im about to add a 405 or fx5 fluval to my established tank and wonder if this is going to happen when I take the old filters off the system (yes Im going to let the new and old filters run a minimum 8 weeks). But like I said Im going to upgrade this tank, I found a 120 but Im trying to hold out for a 150-180. This is going to require a new system as well. I planned on using the water rocks and sand from the existing tanks and HOPE it would be a cycled tank that would have to make minimum changes. Basically a 180 with my 2 55's worth of lr and one tank of live sand so would be adding I guess around 60-75 pounds. Probably at least another 50 in LR as well. Since Im stuck with a forced cycle tank it will give me about 6 weeks I guess to find a better suited tank that way Ill have rock and filters that should be cycled. But I need to know soon if anyone understands alot more in depth about cycling before I setup a new aquarium and dump everyone in there. I can not house both systems. Im sure the correct thing would be setup, cycle, one fish every 5 days afterwards. But I dont have room for all that. I mean when you have filter system go out what do you, not like they usually have spare motors on the local store shelf. But Im trying to learn. The hardest way isnt always the only way though.

 

[tmz]

Folks have given responses to your questions burierd in your long rants.Here are a few more:

Your fish are dying becasue of disease(ich andprobably others) ,and ammonia andprobably low O2.

If you use an uncycled tank which is cetainly the wrong thing to do, the only way to overcome the lack of cycle is with frequent( daily or every other day) water changes.

The mandarins are not stupid and shouldn't die although it seems they will for a lack of informed care;they are behaving as they do in nature. They should not die for a lack of understanding by the aquarist of their captive care requiremnts just because they look pretty in a tank for a short while.

The copper used in your dispaly was in part absorbed by any media you had in there(sand ,rock, etc.) and will leach back into the water over time. This is deadly to invertebrates.Shouln't hurt the fis though.

 

[AngeloM3]

hotwire... we've all given you responses and advise but it seems like your just kinda brushing that advise off... cause you've done nothing to correct the problem. Also with all th is extra stuff your doing (FW dips, adding conditioners, adding other stuff) all builds up to maybe worsen the situation and/or stress the fish out even more....

People probably arent giving you more info because your not taking experienced peoples advise... your still doing everything how you want to do it without taking into consideration the safety and health of your fish.

I'm not sure how you have 5yrs experience and are still doing these things! :eek1:

 

[hotwire73]

Good one tmz, no they havent answered what happens when you use a cycled filtration unit on another setup. Nor the orginal which one could handle a cycle possibly. As for the madarins, no Ive looked over several posting and they are one of the more difficult to keep. But I did however donate them to the local store since considering the current situation.
So maybe you should read more into the actual questions. Nothing in here is saying what will happen when I add a new filter with the existing filtration and later remove the old one. No one has answered what is going to happen when I set up the larger unit and use the established filtration to help carry it while the new filters cycle. No no one has answered the questions I dont know. I do know how to cycle a completely new setup.
Now if you offer every form of food listed in articles and he isnt eating, water is checking out; then not much more I can do. I cant do it like a snake and force it. As for the looks, isnt the reason we have what we want because we like it.
Advice, yes advice that if I had a store that would keep them would be great. They dont. Now one of you did finally say something about low 02 and ammonia, the main tank has shown 0 ammonia. I dont know of a way to test for something like that. Now that is something useful. Is there a way to test for it or should I just add airstones or something? As for the other smart thing about 5 years, well if you got a tank that runs fine for 5 years, nothing to really learn. I do understand the importance of a cycled tank, but Im trying to understand the idea of using cycled filters and water from one tank on another. I will be setting up a larger tank and I would like to know what I should expect before I maybe get in a worse situation.

questions not answered that have been asked over and over
1) What happens when you use an existing filtration unit on another tank. Also adding another filter with it (new). Is this cheating a cycle on the newer filter that will make up for it later on?
2) If I setup a larger system, and use the existing established filtration what are the pros and cons on this.
3) Link to fish that have been used to cycle with. There was one awhile back. Not that it really going to help now, but would like to review it anyway.
New question. Since there is a protein skimmer, and powerheads usually its not a problem. But is there a way to actually check for oygen levels? What can be done to increase, just air stones etc?

Also to the gentlemans post before mine, the fw dip conditioners etc, which would include the hydroplex was simply a complete dip before adding them back to the main tank where they presently are. I did not add anything to the tanks itself.

 

[hotwire73]

These questions are also gearing towards hospital tanks as well. I mean if I have a bad situation or infection as anyone how do you setup a hospital tank with treatment and not going to have a cycle going on. I know some are lucky and have enough tanks to justify keeping a tank on the side, its not practical for me to just have a spare 55 setting empty. Also I am very aware of the copper and inverts, this is why I didnt use the rock nor sand out of the established tank to the newer one. But it is fish only and this is all Im trying to do.
Listen there's always the best way, no expense spared no room a problem answer. Then you got what Ive told you for two tanks, and trying to make it as easy as possible. Ive always heard a that one inch per 2 gallons is exceptable for salt water. I have around 27 I think. I am aware of them growing and that is why I already have a larger tank in the plan. The gobys where about 2+ each so that is some relief. But try to remember if I didnt like them I wouldnt have tried them, but I did do what was best in the end before they had to die. Sometimes we get specimens in that just dont follow the rules and wont adapt. But to some on here its like trying to explain to the vet why you cant go morgage the house while on a fixed income to save the dog. Does this mean that if your not basically a millionaire with no preset spending limits on an animal you shouldnt be able to have one. As long as you can house and feed and afford basics I dont see a wrong. When I got these, they said they eat frozen brine shrimp, well they didnt. I tried garlic etc., mysis, and even went as far as to get brine shrimp eggs and hatch them. Not like I dont think I did what was fairly resonable in this. I will not pity a fish that is given all forms of food that are available, and still refuses to eat; when the water conditions are all within there parameters.

 

[styndall]

A number of things:

First, fish inches per gallon is a bunk measurement. Don't trust it. Different fish produce different amounts of waste, and they're eating habits, diets, messiness, and digestion variation make much more difference to their ammonia load than they're length.

Second, puffers are sensitive to copper. They're not quite as bad as invertebrates, but copper doses that might help remedy ich infestations with other fish can hurt or kill puffers.

Third, using an established filter on a new tank will help some. The bacteria already present on your sponge will convert some ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. A single sponge, however, is unlikely to be able to handle the amount of ammonia that large fish (lions, puffers, triggers, etc.) produce immediately. Using it will help until your rock and other filter media catch up, but these will take some time. Again, using existing filtration on a larger system will help, but you'll need more filtration capacity than your old system can handle. Take careful readings and go slowly, especially with larger fish.

Fourth, mandarin gobies are beautiful fish, but make sure only to purchase those that you see eating frozen or flake food in the store. Too many starve in tanks because they adapt poorly to captivity. If you can get one that will eat prepared foods, consider yourself lucky and enjoy the lovely fish. If not, stay away. The fewer that fish shops sell, the fewer they'll order, and the fewer will die in tanks, and everyone's happier. Also, get rid of your cavalier attitude about the lives of fish. It'll help get you less hostile responses. As of now, you're the enemy.

Fifth, to increase the oxygen in your water, point a powerhead at the surface. Action at the surface helps oxygenate the water.

Sixth, stop adding chemicals to your water. Who knows what combining all these in your tank will do? Let bacteria on your rock and sponge filters do your water conditioning. Quarantine your fish carefully to avoid ich, parasitic isopods, and other diseases. If there's no ich trouble at the moment, stop rushing things and enjoy your fish.

Seventh, break your posts into smaller chunks. When asking for advice, it helps to be very clear and explicit. It's often hard to discern what you're asking.

 

[Aquarist007]

Post withdrawn and I have unsubscribed to this thread

The best of lucky to you--happy reefing

 

[hotwire73]

Yes the mandarins have done very bad for me, but they said they where eating that in the store. Now if you go to the local 2 (within 60 miles) they dont take much time for anything, they tell you what they eat, and thats it. I did however as said give them back and just eat the expense. I did not know puffers where sensitive to copper, he is showing signs of ick now though. I was actually going to dose the tank with the chealted copper tonight. For an aquarium that is usually all fish I was always pushed towards copper from other dealers as a preventative. Now just because I think they should die if they dont eat which is nature in the working, doesnt mean Im heartless to watch it.
I am aware of the bulk measurement theroy as well, but its all I have for a base guideline. Listen people come on here all the time asking for help saying somethings wrong and telling part of a story. My water test fine, puff has ick; thats the truth; now knowing this and what else Ive told you, you now have the chance to make a better decision that may help me save the rest of these guys. It is not easy to say the truth, and I would have got alot more respect playing stupid and half telling truths. As before Im going to upscale to a much larger tank, but if the newer tank using established filters is crashing and cycling, then I may go though that with the bigger one, and not even have an option of putting them back in the smaller tank. This is why I would like to see some form or formula on bacteria loads etc. Here is what I need for the time in help.
1) Puffer is showing ick, I was going to treat the tank once again the chealted copper and do a fresh water dip. I will do a freshwater dip tonight with 1 ounce hydroplex in it tonight. I will hold off on the copper until I can find a safer dosage or what options I have available.
2) The newer tanks is basically taking a full cycle on, no I am not cheating it and trying to speed anything up. The established filter was the hope it would hold. It failed, could have been to long out of water etc., may be you cant cheat a cycle, could be thats there is a completely new filter on the other end cycling as well. I dont know and understand. But when I go to the larger system this is going to play a major role in how its done. How can I safely start a new (lets say 150 from here out) using the two 55 tanks I have with minimum problems (without letting it do its on cycle, if possible). I will use all existing filtration, but it will have a completely new system that will in time have to fully sustain it.
3) I currently have 1 emp angel 3", one niger trigger 4", one blk lion 4", one powder blue tank 3.5", one marine betta 3.5", 2.5-3" stars and strips dogface puffer. Unfortunately I lost my 2 inch pearlscale butterfly. Looks like the lion knocked a larger coral piece off on him, after I placed him back in the tank today. And one shark egg, he is swimming inside his egg very actively. So looks like 21"s at quick glance. Diet is rosy red's with galic xtreme, one piece of medium shrimp every other day. One formula 2 cube each day, 1 either brine shrimp cube- or mysis cube, and switch up about each day from the brine cubes to marine cuisine (suppose to be a complete carnivorous formula), and something called saltwater multipack (4 different foods in one). I switch the cubes around to give them a variety and sometimes give 2 cubes depending on how fast they are eating). Now the niger and puffer are eating on the shrimp, I already have krill and silverslides and about to start trying to convert them over. Thus far the lion doesn't go for the shrimp.
4) I moved the powerhead up as far as possible, it is still 4-5 inches below the top due to it having to be submerged. It does not have a thing to aim it up. It has two outlet choices single outlet or two outlets. Its a jb something 530 gph head unit. It does however have an air inlet that I am not currently using due to being told about air and corals. Since its at the top I could add it but will wait for advice on this.
Thanks again for any help and suggestions forwarded
5) Is there a way to measure oxygen concentration or something in the water as well? I have always only done aggresive type fish and nothing to do with reef. So all I have ever tested for is basically ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. Is there something else that is crucial given the situation.

 

[tmz]

Well I've had enough of this. Bye. Good luck to your fish.

 

[hotwire73]

K Ive researched quite a bit on puffers and coppersafe from google and yahoo search engines. This was quoted by one person, but I did alot more looking into this link http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylprods.htm"
The ONLY fish affected by it so far have been porcupine and spiny box puffers" If you have something supporting your idea on coppersafe and the puffers please be kind enough to forward or post. I will at least go ahead and wait a day in case what Im reading is flawed. Thank you ..

 

[Aquarist007]

Okay Hotwire73, your pm appealed to my inner self that wants to try to help everyone if I can--but if you are going to condescend experience reefers like Tmz--who have my highest respect for--then I simple won't have anything more to do with this thread

The difficutly here is wading through all the extras that you add before and after you ask a question.
I think I have been able to pick out three questions from your last post:

How can I safely start a new (lets say 150 from here out) using the two 55 tanks I have with minimum problems (without letting it do its on cycle, if possible).

I moved the powerhead up as far as possible, it is still 4-5 inches below the top due to it having to be submerged

Is there a way to measure oxygen concentration or something in the water as well? I have always only done aggresive type fish and nothing to do with reef. So all I have ever tested for is basically ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. Is there something else that is crucial given the situation.

What I need to do is post a point form description of each tank you have right now so I can get a clear picture of what you are trying to do----no explanations just a list of each tank
eg
55 gal----
60 lbs rock
berlin protein skimmer
phosban reactor
20 gal sump

 

[tmz]

Cap,n Thanks for the nice words. I can't provide anymore help.
I will not answer the first question about which fish can take it because the question is offensive and unanswerable since it harms them all and no responsible hobbyist would recommend that treatment for any fish.

The other question is also unasweralbe. It's obscure. There is no formula for how much seded media to use on a new tank to avoid a cycle and achieve instant denitrification.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words and I think you have the patience of a saint and contiue to demonstrate your commitment.

 

[hotwire73]

"The other question is also unasweralbe. It's obscure. There is no formula for how much seded media to use on a new tank to avoid a cycle and achieve instant denitrification."

K, no formula I understand since there is no way to measure the amount of bacteria etc in rock and everything else in that system. 120 pounds of rock and sand in one system is not going to be the same in another. Now there is what is resonable, there has to be a safe way to increase the water volume (larger tank) safely. I dont not think this question is obscure. Even if I take everything from the two established systems (in time), then they should at least support that amount of water in the one larger system, (i.e. 2 55 gallons put into one 150; which is 110 gallons of cycled media, filtration; which should at least be safe). Now can u just add 40 more gallons or from experience should I slowly (at what rate) add more rock, sand and water; that the existing filtration should be able to handle SAFELY. Outside rock and sand no, nothing else will be added until the tank shows stability.
Any capn here is what you asked for
55 gallon 70 pound lr, 50-60 pd. live sand.
excalibur protein skimmer
2 aqua tech 30-60 filters
jbj sp 2500 power head
stealth 200 watt heater

tank (2) which as you can tell from before has started a cycle, so I the actual project upgrade is planned for around 6 weeks from now.

(2)
55 gallon
emporer 400
sponge, foam block looking thing. Its 9.75*4*4, have no idea who makes it or what, top has been missing for the 3 years Ive had it. Came with tank. Same principles as usual, I would estimate 300gph flow though its mass.
35 pounds live rock
200 watt, all glass aquarium heater brand I think
powerhead old, probably around 320 gph

lr, sand, stealth heater, water, fish is all that will end up in the final aquarium; everything else will be stored or tossed after it reaches stability.

What will be used in the fltration unit for the 150 that is already on hand from the old system is
only putting everything so that you can recommend as to anything replacements

ETSS1000 protein skimmer
little giant 4000 gph, chemical resistant sump pump
18 gallon container, plumbed in of nothing but bioballs (estimated 300+)
basic filter media that the usual blue one side white on the other, but I do around 12 layers. May be excessive, but I could always just toss the top two layers and replace without disrupting the the bio system much. Usually about 12 ounces of carbon. Use to keep 12 ounces of ammonia chips since they said it would help reduce ammonia- shows how much the local store understand ammonia- saltwater- and the fact you rechage those chips using salt water lol.





-- also as before I think tmz stated about ick, ammonia and o2, I never got an answer on testing for o2 or ways to increase oxygen outside moving the powerhead up which I did, but I havent heard about adding the air line to it. I moved the two larger fish back and the rest are showing signs of stress. Puffer is showing ick, and powder blue is just starting to show it as well this morning. Rest are fine. They where doing better while they where gone and not the larger two are back its the same. They do not attack or mess with each other in any known aggresive ways. I dont think Im pushing inches per gallon anymore, but somethings wrong. I will do freshwater dips with hydroflex to try to help with the external ick and other problems. Also not when I say hydroplex it is added in the freshwater dip not hte tank, I have done nothing for chemicals outside copper in the main tanks. I still have not heard if I need to test for anything else. All water is showing 0, 0, and 10 as usual' nitrates is the 10. Yes, they do eat as usual nothings changed there yet. I just would like to start looking for help before it turns into a whole tank problem again and lose everything. I dont hardly read many success stories once they all are in bad shape.

 

[Aquarist007]

I suggest the following from the information you have given me

set up the 150gal with new salt water and new sand--seed it from a cup of old sand from the 55 gal that does not have ich.
This is very important-if they both have ich then go to the LFS and get a cup of live sand--don't chance it

From what you have reported you have 60lbs live rock
Remove this rock put it in the 150gal tank.

The tank you you just removed the rock from will become your quaratine tank. Put your sick fish in there, the live sand and protein skimmer will continue to maintain this tank. You must check ammonia levels each day and be prepared for a water change

The other 55 gal will make a good sump/refugium for the 150 gal
For now keep the remainder of your fish in there that are not sick and continue to run the protein skimmer ect. Monitor for ammonia

You need another 150 lbs of live rock for the 150gal. I would cure them in separate totes ect that you can buy for 10 bucks a piece and make a lot of water changes if you get ammonia spikes
This way you have existing live rock in your 150 gal and when your other rock has cured you should be able to add it directly to the 150gal and that tank will be ready for adding fish---sloooowly--one at a time.

 

[hotwire73]

k from the post before I showed 70 pounds lr, and 35 in the other tank so 105 pounds currently. But if all I use is the live rock in the new system isnt it going to go though a new cycle? Hate to start it and be stuck with a cycle. You said not to use sand due to ick, can ick survive or swim inside the lr and setup???

Also as before any recommendations to do to the existing tank, the puffer and powder blue still showing stress, and this is causing ick. Now I feel sure its from their stress and not from the tank since it wasnt there before. It seems even though they are very active and eating very well, there is still something stressing them that I am not understanding. The tank should not be over populated, and with all levels in check there is something Im not seeing. This is how my last total tank loss started. When I took the other two out and placed in the new setup before the ammonia shot off the rough evenone of them was doing better and no signs of ick outside the niger in the new tank, but he isnt showing anything now. So even though it doesnt seem to be over populated it somehow is, so what can I do until a new and larger system and can completed.